Prep-God shtick gone too far?

[seaturkey]

I'd like to pose this question to the Batman fans out there, honestly, am I the only one who's beyond the point of suspension of disbelief when it comes to Batman's prep feats?

Case in point, the Batman who laughs. This is a version of Batman who managed to kill of the justice league and proceed to conquer, not just the earth, but the galaxy/universe or whatever, to the point a cosmic entity took notice and plucked him out of his own universe so Batman could wreak havoc in other universes. I mean, really?

A mortal man managed to defeat all the worldly and other-worldly powerful beings in all the cosmos? Sorry, but no amount of 'prep' is going to allow batman to defeat someone like DarkSied.

Now, granted this is a different Batman from the main line but still, this is not out of the realm of how writers view Bruce overall. He's constantly being given PIS/CIS-style prep and it needs to be toned down, IMO.

Batman, for all his prep-God greatness, has his limits. I'd just like writers to go back to remembering that.

[Ascended]

The entire Batgod concept has gone way, way, way too far.

At this point, Batman's the most powerful being in the multiverse. He can defeat anyone, at any time, and has already prepared perfect, unbeatable plans for anything that could ever possibly happen on any level ever. Hell, he has a plan, already set in motion, to defeat me personally if I somehow ever end up in charge at DC and decide to enforce an editorial edict saying that the Batgod stuff has to be toned down. He's *that* good. And anyone else reading this and thinking that they're tired of the Batgod too? He has plans for all of you as well.

I cannot help but literally laugh out loud whenever I see people talk about how Batman is "relatable" because he's "human." Just a regular old guy, right? Because who doesn't dodge Omega Beams, trip the Flash, and defeat the entire Justice League with little more than some smoke, some glue, and some bubblegum?

Batman is awesome. But the Batgod needs to die and never see the light of day again. Never ever ever.

[Jared S]

What I want answered before I admit that as a valid complaint is:

How is he supposed to realistically compete with ANY of the other major DC powers without superior prep skills?

He's a mortal with fantastic ninja skills and some flashy equipment, yet is expected to go toe to toe with people who can injure Superman, Flash, and Wonder Woman in hand to hand combat. How does he survive, much less contribute to the team, without fantastic improvisational and strategic abilities?
I don't think the Dark Multiverse versions are valid counterpoints. Their worlds were essentially created to be destroyed by them and that obviously didn't work in a more stable world, since all of them were defeated. I'm also pretty sure the Dark Superman versions did the same takeover/kill everyone to their worlds, even if that also would realistically have failed.

Also, are we counting times he gets absolutely crushed by his enemies? Just recently, he : 1) was almost killed by reverse flash (who showed painfully how outmatched Batman can be by a superpowered villain), 2) had every bone in his body broken by Luthor, 3) was out chess-mastered by Bane, 4) was knocked out by Arsenal's trick arrow while he was busy detaining/beating up wayward son #2, and 5) was even outmaneuvered by Harley Quinn (though many people complained about that last one, to be fair). It's not like he does this all the time; it mostly seems to happen when he's up against a threat where realistically, he would otherwise be absolutely useless. I see a Batman who is able to go toe to toe with major powers because of his strategic thinking. He's a general who can move forces around strategically and spot weakpoints, maybe even get in a few blows if he's clever. This does make him much more than a typical human, but he has to be able to fight at the appropriate "super-weight" level for the story to work. He also seems to rarely have similar planning ability in street-level Gotham stuff, demonstrating to me that it's mostly a Justice League/ special event thing.

To demonstrate otherwise, I think you would have to demonstrate clear examples of:
1) Extraordinary and unrealistic planning far beyond the norm for a typical chessmaster-type character in the a DC world.
--> It can't just be unrealistic; that's typical for supervillains like Luthor, Joker, Riddler, etc. It should be demonstrably above the norm for a superhero universe.
2) said planning is used to elevate Batman well over and above the capabilities of his peers, and not just place him on equal footing with fellow Justice League members and the other members of the Trinity.
--> Batman has to be able to play the game, or he can't appear in Justice League, for the same reason Nightwing as currently written could not appear in Justice League: He'd get squished.
3) That this a *consistent* flaw and not just a couple-story fluke
--> three-five recent examples (last decade) and a general account of how this typically plays out would be sufficient.

Failing that, I suppose you could argue that Batman should be too weak to be on the Justice League and/or help out in Special Events and that toning him down that much would be an improvement. If so, why? Wouldn't people just complain more?

[note: I don't think outplanning the Justice League in Tower of Babel counts; every chessmaster seems to do that at least once, the plan only temporarily incapacitated them, and Wonder Woman did the exact same thing in League of of One.]

It's entirely possible I'm wrong; I admit I'm new to comics and haven't read as much Batman as most of you have, but I just don't see this as a problem, so long as it's properly confined to specific series...

[Armor of God]

I honestly think its Scott Snyder whose blown it all out of proportion. In Morrison's head all major DC characters are Gods so there's parity in how he writes them. Other cases of Batman going Batgod have serious context (Tower of Babel) or just outright bad writing. Scott Snyder is to me the first person who has completely overdone it. This Batman who Laughs that the OP mentioned is the perfect personification of that. This character literally has done nothing on panel whatsoever. All he does is show up and give a big overwritten speech in that obnoxious font of his, laughs and then somehow wins. I have seen no displays of intellect, physicality or combat skills from this character whatsoever. His backstory is garbage and he is all around an incredibly poor character. Yet of all the Dark Knights he is by far the most over hyped and most overexposed. His entire gimmick by Snyder's own repeated admissions is that he wins because he laughs, rolls eyes.
Beyond that Snyder has over wanked Joker by having his gas just magically work on everyone, he regularly has Batman pull out armor after armor. Really his Batgod is more Irongod.

[jetengine]

What I want answered before I admit that as a valid complaint is:

How is he supposed to realistically compete with ANY of the other major DC powers without superior prep skills?

He isn't. That actually adds to stories. The few times he defeats superior opponents get better the less times he actually does it.

Batman should have a role in the league, but its certainly not on the front lines nor should he be dealing with threats that trash the league.

Batman should be financing the league, doing detective and coordination for it and also doing stealth work.

For example, an assault on Apokalyps shouldn't feature Batman trying to kung fu Darkseid etc. He should be planting bombs in power sources and using the shadows to avoid and stealth-take down Parademons.

[The tall man]

Couldn't the same thing be said about Luthor, why no complaints about him? All Lex has is his intelligence yet he is always involved in cosmic schemes. Look at him now leading and ordering villains far more powerful than him. Making fools of the JL and dealing with cosmic level power. Yet no one bats an eye. At least in universe there are reasons (if you choose to accept them) that Batman can have Batgod moments. His obsessive and paranoid nature, his inability to fully trust anyone even friends, and is tactical and strategic mind is second to none and yes he has plans in place deal with almost any senerio. And as been said he gets his ass handed to him much more than he does any batgod feats. If it comes down to a contest between a highly intelligent non-powered person with a brilliant tactical and strategic mind vs a superpowered person of average intelligence and no concept of tactics I will take the non-powered person everytime. The one who can out think, out wit and out maneuver his opponent will almost always win and that is Batman's specialty. So I have no problem with some batgod moments.

[Jared S]

Couldn't the same thing be said about Luthor, why no complaints about him? All Lex has is his intelligence yet he is always involved in cosmic schemes. Look at him now leading and ordering villains far more powerful than him. Making fools of the JL and dealing with cosmic level power. Yet no one bats an eye. At least in universe there are reasons (if you choose to accept them) that Batman can have Batgod moments. His obsessive and paranoid nature, his inability to fully trust anyone even friends, and is tactical and strategic mind is second to none and yes he has plans in place deal with almost any senerio. And as been said he gets his ass handed to him much more than he does any batgod feats. If it comes down to a contest between a highly intelligent non-powered person with a brilliant tactical and strategic mind vs a superpowered person of average intelligence and no concept of tactics I will take the non-powered person everytime. The one who can out think, out wit and out maneuver his opponent will almost always win and that is Batman's specialty. So I have no problem with some batgod moments.

It's typically a more interesting story too, at least for me. The thing is, anyone can draw one guy beating another in hand-to-hand combat or in struggle of superpowers. It's not entertaining because they're not real people, so the author can pretty much make them do whatever ridiculous thing they want to win (you can never REALLY say, "that last punch should have knocked Superman out, that's unrealistic").

But you CAN show a guy outwitting someone else, and, if you're clever enough, I can go... "Huh, that really was a good strategy, why didn't I think of that?" So properly done, Batprep actually makes for a more interesting story, in my opinion.

[Agent Z]

Couldn't the same thing be said about Luthor, why no complaints about him? All Lex has is his intelligence yet he is always involved in cosmic schemes. Look at him now leading and ordering villains far more powerful than him. Making fools of the JL and dealing with cosmic level power. Yet no one bats an eye. At least in universe there are reasons (if you choose to accept them) that Batman can have Batgod moments. His obsessive and paranoid nature, his inability to fully trust anyone even friends, and is tactical and strategic mind is second to none and yes he has plans in place deal with almost any senerio. And as been said he gets his ass handed to him much more than he does any batgod feats. If it comes down to a contest between a highly intelligent non-powered person with a brilliant tactical and strategic mind vs a superpowered person of average intelligence and no concept of tactics I will take the non-powered person everytime. The one who can out think, out wit and out maneuver his opponent will almost always win and that is Batman's specialty. So I have no problem with some batgod moments.

The difference is that Lex tends to lose with the only real victory being that he can avoid jail some times. Also, Lex recently lost control of his team to the Joker and had never been written as doing stuff like single handedly beating Darkseid.

[Jared S]

He isn't. That actually adds to stories. The few times he defeats superior opponents get better the less times he actually does it.

Batman should have a role in the league, but its certainly not on the front lines nor should he be dealing with threats that trash the league.

Batman should be financing the league, doing detective and coordination for it and also doing stealth work.

For example, an assault on Apokalyps shouldn't feature Batman trying to kung fu Darkseid etc. He should be planting bombs in power sources and using the shadows to avoid and stealth-take down Parademons.

batcard.jpg
Well, the tradeoff is that all the sneaking around and, uh... bankrolling? (*holy infinite bank account batman!*) superhero stuff is that

1) It's typically not half as interesting,
2) twice as hard to write well, and
3) fans will complain anyway (do they ever not)?

Instead of Batgod™ the Omniscient, we will all be on forums talking about The astounding Bat-wimp™, the Billionaire with the fat wallet who is... otherwise kind of useless. What is he even doing on that team? Why do we want this again?

Can't speak for others, but I am perfectly willing to sacrifice an inch of reality for an ell of story. It's not like this constructed universe makes a lot of sense in the first place.

[Yohei72]

Can't speak for others, but I am perfectly willing to sacrifice an inch of reality for an ell of story. It's not like this constructed universe makes a lot of sense in the first place.

Amen to this. If I'm going to start picking at the plausibility of the Bat-mythos, the whole thing falls apart pretty quickly.

Of course, everyone has their different limits when it comes to plausibility questions, and these largely come down to personal taste.

I do like the phrase "Prep-God" - that's a new one on me. My favorite Batman-as-Prep-God moment comes from Morrison, as one can tell from my avatar picture. Does it make sense? Not much, but it makes me cackle in delight.

[Robanker]

The entire Batgod concept has gone way, way, way too far.

At this point, Batman's the most powerful being in the multiverse. He can defeat anyone, at any time, and has already prepared perfect, unbeatable plans for anything that could ever possibly happen on any level ever. Hell, he has a plan, already set in motion, to defeat me personally if I somehow ever end up in charge at DC and decide to enforce an editorial edict saying that the Batgod stuff has to be toned down. He's *that* good. And anyone else reading this and thinking that they're tired of the Batgod too? He has plans for all of you as well.

I cannot help but literally laugh out loud whenever I see people talk about how Batman is "relatable" because he's "human." Just a regular old guy, right? Because who doesn't dodge Omega Beams, trip the Flash, and defeat the entire Justice League with little more than some smoke, some glue, and some bubblegum?

Batman is awesome. But the Batgod needs to die and never see the light of day again. Never ever ever.

Wrap it up. Thread's over.

[DebkoX]

The entire Batgod concept has gone way, way, way too far.

At this point, Batman's the most powerful being in the multiverse. He can defeat anyone, at any time, and has already prepared perfect, unbeatable plans for anything that could ever possibly happen on any level ever. Hell, he has a plan, already set in motion, to defeat me personally if I somehow ever end up in charge at DC and decide to enforce an editorial edict saying that the Batgod stuff has to be toned down. He's *that* good. And anyone else reading this and thinking that they're tired of the Batgod too? He has plans for all of you as well.

I cannot help but literally laugh out loud whenever I see people talk about how Batman is "relatable" because he's "human." Just a regular old guy, right? Because who doesn't dodge Omega Beams, trip the Flash, and defeat the entire Justice League with little more than some smoke, some glue, and some bubblegum?

Batman is awesome. But the Batgod needs to die and never see the light of day again. Never ever ever.

This comment made my day.

[Alan2099]

So he should use a suit capable of drawing blood from Darkseid on Joker? Wouldn't one punch from that suit kill Joker, which is clearly something Bruce wouldn't want to do.

A suit capable of standing up to Darkseid is going to be complete invulnerable to anything 99% of his enemies can throw at him. Why would he look in his closet and say "Okay, I'm going to wear the suit that I CAN get shot and stabbed in," when he can wear the suit that he CAN'T get shot or stabbed in?

[Ascended]

A suit capable of standing up to Darkseid is going to be complete invulnerable to anything 99% of his enemies can throw at him. Why would he look in his closet and say "Okay, I'm going to wear the suit that I CAN get shot and stabbed in," when he can wear the suit that he CAN'T get shot or stabbed in?

The only way to make this argument work is to say that armor like that is counter-productive to Bruce's skillset. Which means you focus the character on the detective and stealth aspects rather than being able to go toe-to-toe with superhumans. Because if the only consideration is how hard Batman can punch, there's no objective reason at all for him not to wear armor and go full-on Stark mode all the time. You gotta say that power armor is like giving a bazooka to a ninja; sure that ninja might find it useful once in a while but most of the time it's just going to get in the way. Because there's no other justification that holds water (IMO, obvs)

[adkal]

Re 'why not always use an enhanced suit':

Because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

He also runs the risk of foregoing his training and relying on tech (think Wolverine relying on his healing factor to barrel his way through a Hand horde). The equipment are tools, they're not him.


Besides, some of his uber-enhanced tech is reliant on alien technology and he'd rather not give people a backdoor in such a way. (Imagine a White Martian scanning him and realising there's some Martian tech in his (otherwise-impervious-to-the-Martian-mind-unless-allowed-to-by-the-user) visor that can be triggered by some Martian word that's impossible for a human tongue to pronounce... or Faora noting something similar but of Kryptonian origin...)

Azrael was forced into a situation where he had to remove his armour; Batwing had his armour messed with in various ways. Bruce just wants to be able to take off the cape and keep going.

His suit has come a long way from the cloth-thing that it used to be - protection down the spine, reinforced cowl, nomex and Kevlar weaves, monitoring systems, data uplinks, visual enhancements, quick release gauntlets, all sorts of funky things in his boots (Data would have a field day) - but the guy loves getting up-close and personal and a lot of the protective enhancements (plating etc) affect maneuverability.