About The Sword As Opposed To The Lasso

[Agent Z]

I found this quote from Phil Jiminez about the sword I wanted to talk about:

This was, originally, a character that was full of fun and light; who saw crime fighting as an adventure; who had no shame about her body; who was a skilled enough athlete and fighter she'd never need armor in the first place (and while she used a sword here and there over her first few decades, it was rare with her, because really, with her power and speed, wouldn't that just be cheating? Where would the fun, and self-betterment be in that?).



As much as I respect Jiminez as a writer, I have to disagree with him here. How is a sword cheating but a magic lasso that can make people tell the truth, reverse mind control, is (usually) unbreakable and can burn evil not cheating? And what is it about a sword that removes self-betterment?

[kjn]

Context for the quote.

I think you're misreading Jimenez here. I see several possible readings through which one can understand Jimenez's take.

The first is to look at the items symbolically. The sword is a symbol of war and violence, but even more it is a symbol of authority. Not justice as in making just decisions, but justice as in the wielder having the right to make decisions. That's a symbology that's rather far removed from Diana, who is here to stop wars through love and helping other people reach just decisions.

The rope, on the other hand, is not as overloaded symbolically as the sword, but it's really more interesting. It's a symbol of the executioner (via hanging; but so can the sword be used), it's a symbol of bondage, but it's also a tool that connects things and can save lives. It's no surprise that many marriage ceremonies include ropes as part of the ritual. I think that duality is something that can and should be explored further in Wonder Woman.

Now, looking at the Magic Lasso, it is a rope with all the powers that you mention. In many ways it's one of the most overpowered items in the DCU. But it's still symbolically a rope. Also, one of the more interesting aspects with Marston, and which some other writers also have latched onto, is that Diana is extremely careful in using it against other people. She readily catches things in it, but she seldom ties people up in it (in Marston's run, I think the most likely person to be tied up in it was Diana herself), and when she does so it is in order to reach further understanding of them. So at the core of Diana's use of the Magic Lasso lies—IMO—the idea of responsible use and reaching understanding between people. Or in the end the ability to reach just decisions by unmasking the truth. But even there, the Magic Lasso is just a tool to reach the truth, and the truth is still only a stepping stone to the goal of reaching a just decision.

In comparison, when the sword is present, Diana seldom shows any hesitancy about using it.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I'll answer this question with a question of my own. Why isn't Superman given a sword? Or a gun? It would certainly make killing enemies easier for him and how could it be cheating when picking them up and carrying them into the sun is an option?

[Agent Z]

I'll answer this question with a question of my own. Why isn't Superman given a sword? Or a gun? It would certainly make killing enemies easier for him and how could it be cheating when picking them up and carrying them into the sun is an option?

Superman can already kill people with heat vision. Diana doesn’t have as much options. Also, an Amazon with a sword makes more sense than a journalist with a sword.

[Geraldofrivia]

Superman can already kill people with heat vision. Diana doesn’t have as many options. Also, an Amazon with a sword makes more sense than a journalist with a sword.

Diana can kill people with her bare hands. The sword is a symbol of violence and lethal force while lasso is a symbol of non-lethal force which suits Wonder Woman. Amazons are peaceful isolated people who live on an island who shuns violence.
I am not against Diana or Amazons having a sword or other lethal weapons but it should be used as last resort.
Diana is the ambassador of peace to Man's world and her carrying a sword does not suit her image.

I think Diana should be given the ability to hide her sword or summon it in times of absolute need instead of just casually carrying it around.

[Agent Z]

Diana can kill people with her bare hands. The sword is a symbol of violence and lethal force while lasso is a symbol of non-lethal force which suits Wonder Woman. Amazons are peaceful isolated people who live on an island who shuns violence.
I am not against Diana or Amazons having a sword or other lethal weapons but it should be used as last resort.
Diana is the ambassador of peace to Man's world and her carrying a sword does not suit her image.

I think Diana should be given the ability to hide her sword or summon it in times of absolute need instead of just casually carrying it around.

The Amazons have never shunned violence. Some versions are more friendly and approachable than others, but they have never been depicted as being against taking up arms.

I do agree with the weapon summoning idea. Actually Azzarello did that in his run.

[WonderScott]

I'm a believer in what Jimenez said and cosign the factors and symbolism kjn presented.

I don't mind if Diana picks up a sword for the occasional duel or fighting a legion of magically-reanimated skeletal warriors, but I tend to think of her having one and wielding it constantly is very un-Wonder Woman-y. She just doesn't need it as it's not her first, second, or third choice of approaches when dealing with foes, adversaries, or mind-controlled teammates and friends. She's arguably the greatest warrior and melee fighter out of all the Leaguers and heroes in the DCU, but she's so far down and so good at the warrior path that she doesn't require or need or have to justify using a sword.

And I don't care how epic the visual was of her using a sword to stab Darkseid in the eye during the Justice League's first DCnU adventure - she could have done the same, if she had to, with a lamppost or her tiara.

It's a little odd how the DCnU Diana became ladened with a "stabby" disposition.

Besides, the lasso is such a unique weapon and symbol and tool and visual aspect of the character when depicted creatively. I don't want to give that up for a run-of-the-mill sword feats and poses.

[Agent 86]

I agree with Jiminez. Maybe not for exactly the same reason, but I don't want Diana to ALWAYS run around with a sword.

I appreciate that one vital characteristic which differentiates Wonder Woman from Superman and Batman is that she's willing to kill in battle if and when necessary, but only when absolutely necessary. But, I don't like Diana entering ALL battles carrying a weapon designed to kill. Sure, when Wonder Woman is facing a Darkseid or Ares level threat, it makes sense for her to armour-up and to carry additional weapons (other than her lasso, bracelets and tiara).

But, if Diana is battling street level thugs, I don't like to see her doing so with her sword. However, I think the Wonder Woman movie handled that somewhat well by showcasing Diana using the sword in a somewhat non-lethal manner, particularly during the fight in the building when they were freeing the village (e.g. she hit people with the handle, not the blade, she used it to destroy guns and she used it to create distractions like collapsing the supporting beam).

[Amazon Swordsman]

Its no more ridiculous than having her on a team with a literal telepath, and nerfing her lasso because it’s apparently “too powerful”

[JackBNimble]

Context for the quote.

I think you're misreading Jimenez here. I see several possible readings through which one can understand Jimenez's take.

The first is to look at the items symbolically. The sword is a symbol of war and violence, but even more it is a symbol of authority. Not justice as in making just decisions, but justice as in the wielder having the right to make decisions. That's a symbology that's rather far removed from Diana, who is here to stop wars through love and helping other people reach just decisions.

The rope, on the other hand, is not as overloaded symbolically as the sword, but it's really more interesting. It's a symbol of the executioner (via hanging; but so can the sword be used), it's a symbol of bondage, but it's also a tool that connects things and can save lives. It's no surprise that many marriage ceremonies include ropes as part of the ritual. I think that duality is something that can and should be explored further in Wonder Woman.

Now, looking at the Magic Lasso, it is a rope with all the powers that you mention. In many ways it's one of the most overpowered items in the DCU. But it's still symbolically a rope. Also, one of the more interesting aspects with Marston, and which some other writers also have latched onto, is that Diana is extremely careful in using it against other people. She readily catches things in it, but she seldom ties people up in it (in Marston's run, I think the most likely person to be tied up in it was Diana herself), and when she does so it is in order to reach further understanding of them. So at the core of Diana's use of the Magic Lasso lies—IMO—the idea of responsible use and reaching understanding between people. Or in the end the ability to reach just decisions by unmasking the truth. But even there, the Magic Lasso is just a tool to reach the truth, and the truth is still only a stepping stone to the goal of reaching a just decision.

In comparison, when the sword is present, Diana seldom shows any hesitancy about using it.

Taking the symbolism of the lasso and the sword even further, especially with male writers who have struggled to "understand" the character, the lasso is a flaccid object (limp) and/or simply viewed as a loop/circular/an opening. The sword is obviously phallic, as well as violent, subjugating and aggressive.

Most male writers, artists and/or editors default to what's comfortable and assuring for them.

I dislike the sword association for Wonder Woman. But, it's a reflection of the times we're in--a shorthand for what's trending in the world.

[Koriand'r]

I see the sword as a phallic symbol, it's a way for DC to give her what they think she's lacking. An edge. The confounding part is that there are many, many, stories in which the lasso is the deciding factor. With the exception of the battle with Medusa, the death of Azzarello's Ares and stabbing Darkseid in the eye, I can't think of an instance where the sword was much more than decoration.

Just as the shield is redundant to the bracelets the sword is almost equally useless.

[BiteTheBullet]

I see the sword as a phallic symbol, it's a way for DC to give her what they think she's lacking. An edge. The confounding part is that there are many, many, stories in which the lasso is the deciding factor. With the exception of the battle with Medusa, the death of Azzarello's Ares and stabbing Darkseid in the eye, I can't think of an instance where the sword was much more than decoration.

Just as the shield is redundant to the bracelets the sword is almost equally useless.

Which has been my consistent argument about her having a sword and shield. Useless to a supposed demi-god, in this case the ability to lift tanks in the DCEU. It lessons her character, to me, to have her have a sword and shield at all times rather than her use the lasso and bracelets exclusively over them.

In her breakout scene in the movie where she charges the battlefield, she ultimately needs others help after hiding behind her shield when all the fire came at her. It would have been much more impressive had she been able to deflect all that came at her and still advance on them!!!

[kjn]

In her breakout scene in the movie where she charges the battlefield, she ultimately needs others help after hiding behind her shield when all the fire came at her. It would have been much more impressive had she been able to deflect all that came at her and still advance on them!!!

More impressive from a strict quantitative view of superheroing. But I'd say it would be fundamentally less meaningful from a story standpoint.

There are lots of things that are impressive about the No Man's Land scene and makes it resonate emotionally, but here I'm going to compare with another great superhero—and emotionally meaningful—superhero scene: Spiderman on the runaway train in Spiderman 2:



In lots of ways that scene and No Man's Land are different, but they have some key similarities.

In both cases, the hero reach their limits at the time. It doesn't matter that they might find new powers or capabilities later on: at the time the hero has chosen to go all in rescuing or helping other people, and pours all of their energy into that effort. And we can only know they do so if they actually reach their limit of what they can do.

In both cases, we get a real emotional reactions out from the people who witness the heroic act, and who are directly affected by that action. For us in the audience, they help to reinforce the meaningfulness of the hero's action, and validate our own emotional response to it.

In both cases, the people around the hero are inspired by the hero, and choose to assist, just as we in the audience would like to do. In the case of Spiderman it is by saving him from falling, and in Wonder Woman it is by momentarily suppressing the German wall of fire. But in both cases, that assistance was only made possible by that the hero had first cleared the way, using their unique abilities. The need for assistance validated that the hero had poured all of their efforts into the act, and the way the witnesses were inspired proved that the act was heroic.

[Stanlos]

I found this quote from Phil Jiminez about the sword I wanted to talk about:

This was, originally, a character that was full of fun and light; who saw crime fighting as an adventure; who had no shame about her body; who was a skilled enough athlete and fighter she'd never need armor in the first place (and while she used a sword here and there over her first few decades, it was rare with her, because really, with her power and speed, wouldn't that just be cheating? Where would the fun, and self-betterment be in that?).



As much as I respect Jiminez as a writer, I have to disagree with him here. How is a sword cheating but a magic lasso that can make people tell the truth, reverse mind control, is (usually) unbreakable and can burn evil not cheating? And what is it about a sword that removes self-betterment?

Well I don't know about cheating but it is definitely overkill and against what the character is about. DC is a land of Bizarros these days what with Flash and others having to frequently check a hyperviolent, sword in throat 1st option version of Diana. It is weird. It's like they wish to alter what and who she is expressly to enable alignment to a model that provides an opportunity for mansplaining.

[marhawkman]

I see it as a thing she only has reason to use if she's planning to cut people or things to pieces. Which is why I don't think she should carry it around all the time. But scenarios like the doomsday fight in BvS? totally works.