If You Love the Wonder Rogues, It's Time to Take Action

[Dr. Poison]

I'm all for bringing in some of the old villains, but more than that I want good stories, and I view any approach to a character based on a cookie-cutter mentality as misguided. Wonder Woman to me isn't defined by her powers or by her villains, but rather her personality and outlook. Several of my favourite Wonder Woman stories hardly have her using her powers at all.

That said, I do think it'd be worthwhile for Wonder Woman to become more diversified than the mythological corner that Pérez made into her backyard, and most later writers failed to move her out from. But let Wilson be allowed to bring out pieces from Wonder Woman's long backstory because she wants to and connects with those pieces and want to tell a story about them, not because she must use specific pieces. That way lies stagnation and stories told by rote.

I really liked WonderScott's "How to fix" series, because the goal there was to shine a light on and appreciate some of the old wacky elements of her backstory. That to me is feels like a much more fun approach, and potentially more likely to be appreciated by creators.

As for Tynion's Justice League Dark, the old fans of Justice Leage Dark, Shadowpact, and other Vertigo lines have been going gaga over all the old characters that Tynion has included so far. For all that Wonder Woman is at the center of the story, it's fundamentally a story of Wonder Woman in the Vertigo universe.

I want good stories too and that is part of my point. I enjoyed when Perez and Jimenez utilized Ares and Circe back in their runs but since then, these stories featuring them and other mythological characters have become repetitive and boring which has fostered my desire to see the Wonder-rogues modernized and developed instead.

[kjn]

I get that, but I think the key here is that a desire to write about a specific villain can lead to a good story while a demand to write about a specific villain will not do the same.

[Dr. Poison]

Because mythological enemies make a lot more sense for stories about magic and myth than Blue Snowman. And Justice League Dark is exploring all corners of the DCU’s mystical side not just WW’s.

I didn't mean Blue Snowman for JLDark. I meant Diana's non-public domain mystical rogues like the Queen of Fables, Dark Angel, Dark Commander, or the White Magician.

[Dr. Poison]

Rucka’s second run focused heavily on Cheetah and Veronica Cale and Silver Swan was featured in Robinson’s run.

True but Ares, Circe, Deimos, and Phobos were also along for the ride.

[Dr. Poison]

I get that, but I think the key here is that a desire to write about a specific villain can lead to a good story while a demand to write about a specific villain will not do the same.

Right but writer after writer seem to be telling similar stories about Ares and Circe. It's beyond tired.

[kjn]

Right but writer after writer seem to be telling similar stories about Ares and Circe. It's beyond tired.

I'm not sure that's an assertion that is borne out of the facts. Sure, in the New 52/Rebirth era, Ares has appeared 27 times, but most of them are in Azzarello's run, which most definitely used a different type of relation between Ares and Diana, and not at all a similar story between them. And Rucka's Rebirth Ares was also quite different.

Circe only played a supporting role in Rucka's run, until Tynion made her a major player in Justice League Dark. She was also used in the Trinity comic together with other iconic villains.

Cheetah has been used more than Ares and Circe combined, in both Wonder Woman and teamup titles.

Do I want to see more villains? Sure. But to me the need for good Wonder Woman stories is right now more important than a forced inclusion of old villains.

[Largo161]

Wonder Woman isn't Thor. She doesn't need a "Loki".

Ah, but thanks to DC’s Zeus-daddy/demigod origin, she gets to be more and more like Thor as the years roll on!

[Dr. Poison]

Ah, but thanks to DC’s Zeus-daddy/demigod origin, she gets to be more and more like Thor as the years roll on!

Granted, she may be a demigoddess but Wonder Woman herself is not a public domain character like Thor is.

[Dr. Poison]

I'm not sure that's an assertion that is borne out of the facts. Sure, in the New 52/Rebirth era, Ares has appeared 27 times, but most of them are in Azzarello's run, which most definitely used a different type of relation between Ares and Diana, and not at all a similar story between them. And Rucka's Rebirth Ares was also quite different.

Circe only played a supporting role in Rucka's run, until Tynion made her a major player in Justice League Dark. She was also used in the Trinity comic together with other iconic villains.

Cheetah has been used more than Ares and Circe combined, in both Wonder Woman and teamup titles.

Do I want to see more villains? Sure. But to me the need for good Wonder Woman stories is right now more important than a forced inclusion of old villains.

Granted, Azzarello's Ares was a different take on the character but not necessarily a good different kind of take. There is something to be said for different but not when it's just for the sake of being different.

As for Ares, we're back to him battling Diana for what he believes the world's armies should be doing. Sound familiar?

[numberthirty]

I didn't mean Blue Snowman for JLDark. I meant Diana's non-public domain mystical rogues like the Queen of Fables, Dark Angel, Dark Commander, or the White Magician.

The issue with using those characters is simple.

Outside of the case that what seems to be the desire(perfectly understandable, mind you) of a couple of folks in the "Wonder Woman" sub-forum, what is the actual case for using any of those characters in what they are currently doing in that title?

As far as I can recall, The White Magician might even be dead. From what you are saying, even you think that the other characters are in need of alteration.

That said, what's the case for taking characters that need work and shoehorning them into JLD?

If the company were to do it, it would really need to be based on a better reason than it's what a couple of folks on a message board want.

I really, really liked the "New52" version of the whole "Dial H For Hero" concept. That doesn't mean that I think for one second that DC should just plop it down in the middle of whatever they are planning because of my personal inclination. It's just not much of a case for doing so.

[numberthirty]

Granted, Azzarello's Ares was a different take on the character but not necessarily a good different kind of take. There is something to be said for different but not when it's just for the sake of being different.

As for Ares, we're back to him battling Diana for what he believes the world's armies should be doing. Sound familiar?

If it was different, than the assertion that it was similar really doesn't track.

[Dr. Poison]

The issue with using those characters is simple.

Outside of the case that what seems to be the desire(perfectly understandable, mind you) of a couple of folks in the "Wonder Woman" sub-forum, what is the actual case for using any of those characters in what they are currently doing in that title?

As far as I can recall, The White Magician might even be dead. From what you are saying, even you think that the other characters are in need of alteration.

That said, what's the case for taking characters that need work and shoehorning them into JLD?

If the company were to do it, it would really need to be based on a better reason than it's what a couple of folks on a message board want.

I really, really liked the "New52" version of the whole "Dial H For Hero" concept. That doesn't mean that I think for one second that DC should just plop it down in the middle of whatever they are planning because of my personal inclination. It's just not much of a case for doing so.

I just find it interesting that Tynion can find room for appearances or at the very least cameos by so many magic folks from the DCU except from Wonder Woman's original rogues gallery yet plenty of time for Hecate and Circe who hail from public domain.

[numberthirty]

I just find it interesting that Tynion can find room for appearances or at the very least cameos by so many magic folks from the DCU except from Wonder Woman's original rogues gallery yet plenty of time for Hecate and Circe who hail from public domain.

Nothing particularly interesting about it.

That pair of characters has a much higher degree of "Folks Might Be Aware Of Them..." than any of the Wonder Woman villains mentioned.

Far more likely to get a reader who might be on the fence to pick the title up.

[numberthirty]

Just seems to make more sense than...

- Bring Character Back From The Dead
- Revitalize Character
- Hope You Still Have A Book On The Stands Once You Do So

[Dr. Poison]

Nothing particularly interesting about it.

That pair of characters has a much higher degree of "Folks Might Be Aware Of Them..." than any of the Wonder Woman villains mentioned.

Far more likely to get a reader who might be on the fence to pick the title up.

And how many folks do you believe are aware of Nightmaster, Traci 13, Blue Devil, and Manitou Dawn?