Green Goblin vs. Captain America

[MidTierHero]

Hahaha this "peak of human potential" line is just a phrase, like calling Namor "the first mutant" (he isn't.) Cap has been dping low-end superhuman from the get-go, and especially in the last decade.

[Captain Morgan]

Nor do I believe Cap should be classified as anything other than peak human given his feats over decades and Marvel's own insistence on presenting him as a guy enhanced to "the peak of human potential"

I'm inclined to agree. But this IS the chance for people to try and establish otherwise if they are interested, and while I agree with Cap's classic placement I can at least see where the other side is coming from on it. Since I am going to try and argue about a ruling I disagreed with, it seems only fair to extend that courtesy to others.

[MorphyVSFischer]

Hahaha this "peak of human potential" line is just a phrase, like calling Namor "the first mutant" (he isn't.) Cap has been dping low-end superhuman from the get-go, and especially in the last decade.

Examples? Keep in mind even if you have a feat of him say bullet timing the character is still weighted against the characters 70 year history, just because some are recent doesn't mean we can toss the old examples to the contrary.

[The Chou Lives]

As mentioned, GG would murder Steve.

[Pendaran]

Hahaha this "peak of human potential" line is just a phrase, like calling Namor "the first mutant" (he isn't.) Cap has been dping low-end superhuman from the get-go, and especially in the last decade.

There are notes within the last several years of the super soldier serum, in comics, Captain America comics no less, as a thing that takes you to the peak of human potential. Cap despite "doing low end superhuman from the get go" had a flat out entire plot arc from the 70s and then referred to again in the 90s where that version of him was brought out of time, where he was given explicit superstrength as a contrast set up to normally not having it. In fact, there was even another plotline involving that sort of thing in Cap's silver age doings.

Honestly though, we might not want to treat Cap's stats as a given. While I've always been in the "Cap has stats comparable to Batman" camp, the old rulings are gone and the dude does have some pretty impressive performances in recent years. What do you guys think?

That some showings from an entire career where he's explicitly presented in concept and context as not beyond peak human and instead its definition any number of times, to the point of being called out by name as not having things like superstrength don't make all that go away, and man, this really is going to be all this stuff gone through again..

Can't wait for the Thor speed debate to come back. The old rulings are gone after all.

[Jonathan]

Regardless of the speed issue, Goblin should be too strong for him. But then so should a lot of the characters he's beaten.

Anyways, could someone tell me how to get an avatar up, I'm having trouble with it for some reason.

[MidTierHero]

So Cap is billed as being the "peak of human potential", but has been performing feats of strength, durability and speed equivalent to that of a low-end superhuman for years.

[Matt the Manly]

Hahaha this "peak of human potential" line is just a phrase, like calling Namor "the first mutant" (he isn't.)

Its not a factually incorrect phrase as in the case of Namor, it is a character concept wherein Marvel have specifically defined captain America's level as that of a guy at the peak of human potential, as in comic book peak human potential, which is quite impressive in terms of normal, regular humans and what they can do

Captain America's level and that of people with similar feats has been identified by Marvel themselves as peak human and not something explicitly metahuman , unlike for example DCs Deathstroke who is directly referred to as an enhanced metahuman (albeit a low level ons)and has the required feats to back up the same

Out of curiousity, if Cap is a "super human", what is Spiderman? A super-duper Human?

Reed Richards? Super-duper,duper Human?

Cap has been dping low-end superhuman from the get-go, and especially in the last decade.

Batman in the last decade alone tagged two different Flashes, punched out bullets from the air, one shotted Deathstroke, treated Shiva like something of a joke, sliced Doomsday clones who were sending Superman flying with their punches, into pieces with an axe, redirected a blitzing Captain Marvel, kicked hard enough to make Darkseid bleed etc etc

I am glad , we are using only the last decade of feats / other characters jobbing to establish a characters level, nevermind the said characters have been around for at least 5 decades or so , performing at a more or less consistent level

[Pendaran]

So Cap is billed as being the "peak of human potential", but has been performing feats of strength, durability and speed equivalent to that of a low-end superhuman for years.

Can you reconcile why he's been given whole story arcs of superstrength power ups to contrast him as regularly not having them with this statement? This doesn't otherwise seem to reply to what I had pointed out.

[King of Asgard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlgQriclUSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSz0bQzZuM
Sorry man, but MCU Cap is nowhere near as strong as Dafoe Goblin.

I call bull.

[MidTierHero]

So your argument is:

-since there are superpowered people more powerful than Cap, Cap can't be considered superhuman, despite him doing superhuman things?

-since Cap has gotten power ups in the past, that means his baseline can't be that of someone superhuman?

-since a couple of characters have said Cap isn't superhuman in the narrative, that should outweigh the fact that he does superhuman things, or the fact that other characters have said he does superhuman things?

Sorry, can't agree with any of those. Sounds like you're pretty entrenched. Just remember there is a huge range of what is considered "superhuman" in comics. Cap is on the low end, but he's above someone like Batman (who still does things real world people can't do.)

In the end terms like "peak human" and "superhuman" are just labels, and can't be used to dismis out of hand what Cap consistently does.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Cap is considered peak comic book human, and this is confirmed by other humans with no powers at all (Kingpin, for instance), or at least no notably stat-altering powers (Wolverine, Daredevil), are able to hang with or surpass his showings.

[Holacik]

So your argument is:

-since there are superpowered people more powerful than Cap, Cap can't be considered superhuman, despite him doing superhuman things?

-since Cap has gotten power ups in the past, that means his baseline can't be that of someone superhuman?

-since a couple of characters have said Cap isn't superhuman in the narrative, that should outweigh the fact that he does superhuman things, or the fact that other characters have said he does superhuman things?

Sorry, can't agree with any of those. Sounds like you're pretty entrenched. Just remember there is a huge range of what is considered "superhuman" in comics. Cap is on the low end, but he's above someone like Batman (who still does things real world people can't do.)

In the end terms like "peak human" and "superhuman" are just labels, and can't be used to dismis out of hand what Cap consistently does.

So what you need to do is to post scans of an unenhanced Cap consistently preforming strength feats that put him in super-human status.

[Matt the Manly]

So your argument is:

-since there are superpowered people more powerful than Cap, Cap can't be considered superhuman, despite him doing superhuman things?

-since Cap has gotten power ups in the past, that means his baseline can't be that of someone superhuman?

-since a couple of characters have said Cap isn't superhuman in the narrative, that should outweigh the fact that he does superhuman things, or the fact that other characters have said he does superhuman things?

Sorry, can't agree with any of those. Sounds like you're pretty entrenched. Just remember there is a huge range of what is considered "superhuman" in comics. Cap is on the low end, but he's above someone like Batman (who still does things real world people can't do.)

In the end terms like "peak human" and "superhuman" are just labels, and can't be used to dismis out of hand what Cap consistently does.

Please post scans of Cap doing superhuman stuff "consistently"

Lets start with speed. Scans of Cap dodging bullets after they are fired? Start from 1941

Or ok from 1964

Then we move on to strength

[Captain Morgan]

Can't wait for the Thor speed debate to come back. The old rulings are gone after all.

I am sort of figuring the Thor speed debate will come back, to be honest. Especially if we get a bunch of new posters for the new age. I'm figuring getting some of these issues settled early is probably a good thing, personally. And I figured you would be able to handle the ensuing Cap argument.