Green Goblin vs. Captain America

[big_adventure]

Just pointing out, I don't know that we spot Norman Spider-Man level reflexes. Actual speed feats for him might be nice.

We actually do not - there was a mod ruling on it, in fact.

[Guy1]

I call bull.

Go ahead then. Post vids of MCU Cap being as strong as Dafoe Goblin.

[Siriel]

Moderator

Okay, so regarding the Peak Human vs Bullet Timer thing.

I didn't bother carrying it over because I figured it would be obvious, but apparently there's at least some level of argument on it.

So: peak human (as used on this forum) is not bullet timing. A bullet timer is above someone with peak human stats (in speed, at least), enough to blitz.

In fact I'll go bring over mod rulings similar to this one, since those at least have no reason to not be kept.


Regarding Captain America being above peak human: The last time this was discussed (at tiresome length) some years ago, there was no consistent evidence for this.
If he has received some power-up since, let's say 2005 to be generous, that would put him on such a level, please post scans and supporting evidence.

[Pendaran]

-since Cap has gotten power ups in the past, that means his baseline can't be that of someone superhuman?

That's exactly what that means when the entire concept of those power ups was giving him something he otherwise was noted as not having, yes.

Sorry, can't agree with any of those. Sounds like you're pretty entrenched. Just remember there is a huge range of what is considered "superhuman" in comics. Cap is on the low end, but he's above someone like Batman (who still does things real world people can't do.)

You're basically saying that despite it being to the point of being the subject of entire plot arcs that Cap has to get power ups to have explicit superstrength, that he has decades of showings supporting that, that ontop of that in comic statements to that tune continue right along, you can ignore that because of a few showings, and some statements. When the case to the contrary has both of the things you're pointing to, and extended plot runs? That's frankly a great deal more weight. And one that the ruling for was renewed on besides.

[big_adventure]

Dafoe Goblin is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than MCU Cap. Two feats pop directly to mind:

1. Holding the cable car in one hand without significant stress. Now, it can be argued that this is SMvFLy as hell, since you'd need to be class 50-70 or something to do that (I ran the math on the old forum), but you can't argue that it didn't happen or that it wouldn't require MASSIVE strength.

2. Catching a punch from Peter and just stopping it mid-flight. He did this in their very first fight.

[Daenarys Stormborn]

Dafoe Goblin is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than MCU Cap. Two feats pop directly to mind:

1. Holding the cable car in one hand without significant stress. Now, it can be argued that this is SMvFLy as hell, since you'd need to be class 50-70 or something to do that (I ran the math on the old forum), but you can't argue that it didn't happen or that it wouldn't require MASSIVE strength.

2. Catching a punch from Peter and just stopping it mid-flight. He did this in their very first fight.

1)I would be interesting in seeing the calculation because I don't understand how you got 50-70 class. A cable car only weights ( from what i could find) about 8 tons. Assuming all the people in it come to about 4 tons that only puts it up to 12. of course holding it 1 hand makes it better, but goblin having enhanced endurance detracts a bit from it. Still, he showed no strain. But how do you jump all the way up to class 50-70? Someone that strong could hurl giant buildings or even monsters at people. Really, 616 spider-man is still stronger than that specific GG feat with lifting or throwing euqal=/heavier stuff.

2) no qualms with 2.

[Anarchist]

Dafoe-Gobby also had some serious high damage soak. He endured punches from a very PISSED of Tobey-Pete (the same dude who can stop a train) and had a huge wall collapse on him without being, y'know, turned into paste.

@ Topic
This would be a fight (and not a stomp) if it were Ultimate Cap, who (in contrary to 616-Cap) is a confirmed Superhuman with solid Class 10-Level strength.

[Acecool]

Green Goblin hits Cap with his Glider, even if he was a high damage soak, a half ton of metal hitting you at sixty is going to mess you up.

Then he snaps Cap's neck while he's fumbling around on the ground bleeding to death.

While this is probably a non fight. I would think that cap could get his shield up before the glider hits him.

This would be a better fight if it was a scenario. But at 30 paces away, it should be relatively quick.

[Acecool]

Dafoe Goblin is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than MCU Cap. Two feats pop directly to mind:

1. Holding the cable car in one hand without significant stress. Now, it can be argued that this is SMvFLy as hell, since you'd need to be class 50-70 or something to do that (I ran the math on the old forum), but you can't argue that it didn't happen or that it wouldn't require MASSIVE strength.
[snip]

The real issue I have with this feat is that gobby should have been dragged to the side by the cable car. That is conservatively about 10 tons pulled to the side with the only counter weight being Mary Jane. Goblin does not have the ability to stick to the nearest surface as an excuse.

[big_adventure]

1)I would be interesting in seeing the calculation because I don't understand how you got 50-70 class. A cable car only weights ( from what i could find) about 8 tons. Assuming all the people in it come to about 4 tons that only puts it up to 12. of course holding it 1 hand makes it better, but goblin having enhanced endurance detracts a bit from it. Still, he showed no strain. But how do you jump all the way up to class 50-70? Someone that strong could hurl giant buildings or even monsters at people. Really, 616 spider-man is still stronger than that specific GG feat with lifting or throwing euqal=/heavier stuff.

That particular cable car (roosevelt island tramway) weighs more than 10 tons empty and over 20 tons when full, the cables weighs tons by themselves, it can hold 125 people per car, and the calculations required were boosted by the the angle he held it at. It's just physics. This is why the haul cables (the cables that pull the tram) support 350,000 pounds and the support cables (the ones that hold the tram up - this is the one Gobby was holding and that Spidey then caught) support 850,000 pounds. Plus, as you note, holding it casually in one hand is still more impressive.

[Anarchist]

Well, just like Tobey-Spidey then, with his train-feat.
I think these are 2 rare examples of Movie-Chars being stronger than their Comic-Counterparts.

[FrenchGemini]

Well, just like Tobey-Spidey then, with his train-feat.
I think these are 2 rare examples of Movie-Chars being stronger than their Comic-Counterparts.

Yup. You have movie Cap too, who is stronger than classic 616-Cap (don't know if he has received a boost since the Marvel NOW thing), being explicitely low-level superhuman, and who thanks to his Winter Soldier feats, is given good odds against his comic counterpart, but I think that's about it.

[Daenarys Stormborn]

Dafoe-Gobby also had some serious high damage soak. He endured punches from a very PISSED of Tobey-Pete (the same dude who can stop a train) and had a huge wall collapse on him without being, y'know, turned into paste.

@ Topic
This would be a fight (and not a stomp) if it were Ultimate Cap, who (in contrary to 616-Cap) is a confirmed Superhuman with solid Class 10-Level strength.

I think the stomp would actually go the other way if that was done. Ultimate Cap strength was indeed around 10 ( I would say even higher), but when including his smashes with the his shield he was hitting much stronger than that. For durability I'd give him way past 616 spider-man...and he had absurd healing. I remember a panel where it said he could heal bullet wounds in hours and knife wounds in minutes. Anytime he got beat-up he basically be good to go right after unless he was drugged (which, I recall later was impossible because he was immune to everything from smallpox to hiv). And all those times he got smashed by class 50-+ fighter where he needed only minimal recovery to the point he would be back in the fight seconds later or barely bothered were actually consistent...

He was a ture super soldier! I would also put Ultimate Cap as lowest possible end BT as well.

Hell, there was even a panel indicating he learned almost akin to taskmaster does combat for non combat skills.

[Syrile Demonthyst]

Buwahahahaha... That did not take long at all...

Anyways... Why is Cap fighting Green Goblin?
Steve is a good guy... what did he do to deserve this?

[Cape and Cowl]

While I have nothing to offer to the Cap vs Goblin fight, I'll gladly jump on board the Steve is a low end metahuman subject if its open. If you want scans I'll post em, whatever.