Should Tim become Joker Junior at some point?

[adrikito]

The first time that I heard that I remembered that film..

I always saw that Joker Jr as the real joker.. In that moment Drake was not really him..

Damian already has the potential to become the next Ra's al Ghul. He has nothing to do with the Joker or at the least not much. I find it quite refreshing to have a core Batman character who isn't tied to Joker.
An evil Damian doesn't have to be the Joker.

You are right in that.. I prefer one evil damian alghul.. You can think. OK, he followed her mother family evil path..

I would have said No(too cruel) but Speed Force League Unlimited comment reminded me the hate between Tim and Damian fanbase for want to support him..

[Batman Begins 2005]

Man the uncut version of BB: ROTJ is so dark. Our Family Memories is truly disturbing.

[oasis1313]

Everything you said makes sense. I'm just saying if The Joker really wanted to stick it to Batman he would stick it to not only another Robin, but his son, to boot. I mean, sticking it to Batman is pretty much half the reason The Joker even exists (the other half is sticking it to everyone else).

I'd Jokerize Tim over Joker--Bruce cares more about him than he does Damian.

[phonogram12]

I can't wait until the new Young Justice series with Tim. And notice that there's only one R on his costume!

[MarkRodriguez09]

I'd like it as an elseworlds story where Joker Tim proves to be too insane for Joker himself to handle and it backfires. Then Joker Tim tortures and dismembers the original, with as always, Batman swooping in before he can outright kill him.

[oasis1313]

I'd like it as an elseworlds story where Joker Tim proves to be too insane for Joker himself to handle and it backfires. Then Joker Tim tortures and dismembers the original, with as always, Batman swooping in before he can outright kill him.

Just give Joker a crowbar.

[Arctic Cyclist]

Although it is a valid direction for Tim and an effective final graduation from Robin as giving him the same treatment Bruce gave Dick didn't work, my answer is no. It doesn't work with the current continuity.

I need to go explain all the timelines better in the Damian thread, but briefly here: in the Damian: Son of Batman/Batman 700/SupermanBatman 75 universe, Tim is shown and implied to have been turned into Joker Jr. It works there as one of the most important traits of the BatJoker relationship is Batman can't/won't kill the Joker. In Flashpoint, where Thomas Wayne is a ruthless, merciless SOB who won't hesitate to kill, the Joker is Martha Wayne. In the aforementioned universe, The Joker's goal was to push Damian into being Batman, eliminate all of Bruce's rogues via Damian's murderous rampage of revenge, and then have him accept and hold true to the no kill rule. By having Tim be the Joker who is responsible for Dick's death, he upped the ante of Jason's death by adding in multiple layers of guilt that begins with Batman and Robin's failure to save Tim. It's delightfully dark and twisted, particularly since it's not noticeable until about the third reread and then the twists and implications all start coming out in a horrifying logical progression.

However, that's the reality where Damian never dies and Talia's endgame in Incorporated, Forever Evil, Joker's Endgame, The Court of Owls, We Are Robin, and the two Harper Row series never happened. In this reality, it doesn't fit, particularly with the after effects of Tec, Metal, and No Justice, and especially with what's going down in The Batman Who Laughs. The current Beyond series appears to be separating from the post Forever Evil/pre-Rebirth reality with those histories dissolving and reflecting current comic continuity stories, in particular Dick's, sorry, Ric's current arc. Out of the Past and Talia's death has been referred to, but there's no indication that Return of the Joker happened particularly since several of his victims from that story have appeared in the current run...albeit as victims of the current Joker.

Overall, it's a great idea and absolutely fun to play with. I hated Damian: Son of Batman when it came out, but unlike many other New 52 stories, it improves on the rereads and does create a fascinating series of questions worth exploring. Including my favorite from the Superman/Batman series about why Terry went from being Damian's protégé to Bruce's.

For the record, Gotham Academy has established that Terry McGinnis is happening in the current universe, Warren and Damian had a class together before Damian got expelled, and Blight has traveled back in time to kill Warren already.

[Arctic Cyclist]

As for Damian getting turned into Joker Jr: again, a great idea with excellent emotional trauma. However it ignores the current relationship between the Joker and Damian, which has shown over and over again that the Joker is probably the most invested person canonically in Damian becoming Batman. He seriously seems to like that idea, and it's not just when Tomasi is writing them. Even back in Dick!Bat's time, Morrison and a few others showed the Joker being fond of Damian and attempting to mentor and encourage him into embracing the Bat values and standards.

Beyond that, there's a sort of obscure little bit of canon that most people don't realize: like most people, the Joker is scared shitless of Ra's and Talia. If you've never read The Demon Laughs, that's a shame because it means you're missing out on what happened the one time the Joker tried to play Ra's and Talia. It ended with Batman very gently telling the Joker that Talia has strolled into to Arkham to abduct and murder the Joker once, if she feels like doing it again no one and nothing is capable of stopping her. He later does that with the Riddler, and I think a handful of a few others, and Morrison uses the fact that Talia is Bruce's unofficial bogeyman and personal assassin in RIP and Batman and Robin. It's why Damian is the only Robin to spend over 48 hours in canon as the Joker's captive and walk out unscathed, fed, well rested, and cranky about wearing a foam clown nose and having a smile drawn on his gag.

The Joker's not stupid. He's not going to risk incurring al Ghul wrath, especially not now when it's been established repeatedly that Ra's and Talia are both very invested in Damian's retrieval and return.

Jason as the Joker Jr is another great, unlikely idea because it ignores the All Caste training.

Personally, my favorite Joker Jr, despite all the rampant Bruce being a pedophile aspects, was Dick Grayson in the Millerverse. It's wickedly dark all things considered in that universe, and would be utterly devastating in the main one particularly if it keeps his immortality from that version. That universe had Bruce cast Dick out once he was no longer attracted to him and never talk to him again along with a Jason that ran to the Joker and allow his murder. Think about how much more brutal this Dick or even Ric would be as the Joker, and how devastating that would be to everyone.

Tim? Meh. It's painful but similar enough to everything that's happened that it gets a shrug. Damian? I can see it and would enjoy it, but it's too similar to Metal and ignores the Demons in the room. Jason is a repeat of the past and kind of blah. Dick, though, is too much fun to hurt because it never stops hurting. It's the burn of salt and hydrogen peroxide in the wound. Or it was. Now it's starting to become boring.

[Restingvoice]

No. Horrible idea. Besides the fact that it means torturing another sidekick because they always want to make Joker even darker, I don't need another sad Batman blaming himself because you know that's the type of story they're going to go for. Batman will be sad and angry while continue with whatever story he has, then whatever book Tim is starring have to deal with the aftermath, including cancelling whatever story they had for Tim because they have to deal with the recovery process.

[TheRay]

Joker already has children in canon. It would make more sense for one of them to don the codename “Joker, Jr.” than this. Besides, Red Hood was their best chance to go this route if they really desired to and they didn’t. Red Hood, I think, is much better off for it too.

[Batman1970]

Stupid Idea!

COME ON DC, GIVE TIM DRAKE A "PURPOSE"!

[oasis1313]

Stupid Idea!

COME ON DC, GIVE TIM DRAKE A "PURPOSE"!

His purpose is to be lauded in glory.

[TheRay]

Wouldn't Jason be more interesting as Joker's Son?

Personally, if we had to pick a character that already exists, I would say that The Commissioner would be the most interesting choice.

[Arctic Cyclist]

Personally, if we had to pick a character that already exists, I would say that The Commissioner would be the most interesting choice.

You leave Jim Gordon alone! It's bad enough that the time the Joker stripped him naked and led him around in a dog collar stayed canon (depending on if you have the edited edition of the Killing Joke or not, my copy has Jim's peen), and that the Joker has confessed that one of his hobbies is laying under Jim's bed and listening to him sleep (thanks, Death of the Family). We don't need the Joker deciding to have a daddy/son Dom/sub relationship with Jim Gordon. Their relationship is already full blown psychosexual non-consensual messiness.


With Flashpoint Thomas Wayne in play, it would be far more interesting to see if Martha escaped her various deaths as well and shows up. She's amazing, and a different sort of utterly terrifying, particularly with her tendency to go after children. Martha Wayne is hands down the best Joker, and having the Batfamily, including Jacob Kane, deal with an alternate timeline turned to evil Martha would be spectacular and heart wrenching. Think about how traumatic it would be for Bruce, who regularly worries about people's genetics predisposing them to crime, to find out both of his parents become murderers. Or Damian, and how horrified he'd be to find out all his grandparents run the gamut of well intentioned extremists to full on serial/mass murderers. And Kate and Jacob? It puts a whole new layer of horror on Alice, and the Kane family tree. Even Catwoman would have issues with her, because Martha left her fully paralyzed in Flashpoint.

Martha Wayne is the Joker we need and deserve.

[oasis1313]

Personally, if we had to pick a character that already exists, I would say that The Commissioner would be the most interesting choice.

I think Commissioner Gordon would make a good Joker. He's been too protected.