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  1. #1021
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I guess it's fitting that the Arrow half of the crossover would open with a flashback to The Monitor and then feature various flashbacks to pivotal moments between Oliver and other characters. Maybe this was their way of making sure Oliver had a last scene with all the various crossover people (Kate, Ray, Superman and Lois, and Kara) before he sacrificed himself.

    I love how Oliver's Spectre voice is so heavily modulated because Ollie's Green Arrow kind of popularized the whole "Superheroes modulating their voice" thing.

    Where was Thawne? He said he'd see Barry in Crisis. Did he overshot his run or was he stuck in the Speed Force?

    Seeing Oliver get to say "Run, Barry, Run" was pretty cathartic. I'm going to miss their friendship but I'm glad we got to see them emphasize how close they were before the crossover ended.

    I don't know what Guggenheim meant by their being more guest appearances in the second half. Unless we're counting the montage of the other Earths, which was mostly re-used footage, there was only 2-3 major cameos in this. But I guess most of their cameo budget probably went to EZRA MILLER's FLASH !!!!

    That was probably the biggest, high-profile, and unexpected moment yet. I know Miller has said he wanted to meet Gustin's Flash, but I never expected it would actually happen and on a TV Crisis of Infinite Earths of all things. That was such a geek-out moment, and the perfect Flash moment for Crisis aside from 90's Flash's sacrifice. I also loved how Gustin's Flash ends up being the one who gives Miller's the idea to call himself The Flash.

    I thought it was weird that they never once panned to Batwoman during the big fight. I was half-expecting Kate to be sneaking up on the Anti-Monitor.

    "You Have Failed This Universe!" Yep, it was all leading up to that one line.

    Oliver's death scene would've felt more powerful if they hadn't done the fake out in the first half in my opinion, but I guess he needed to die once to become The Spectre.

    I do agree that I wish Kara had been there with Barry and Sara to see Oliver's death. She could've flown up there. I think we needed a last, intimate, moment with the Arrowverse Trinity. And that line about them needing to protect the new universe would've been doubly relevant because he would've known Kara would be on the new Earth .

    Luthor has restored his public reputation and is now in charge of the DEO. I wonder if they'll explore this more on Supergirl or the Superman and Lois show, or both. Because he's got to be plotting something.

    Lena has also apparently been reset back into being friends with Kara, unless the support is the act. Are they going to restore her Pre-Crisis memories or just leave her as is?

    It wouldn't feel like Crisis without a Marv Wolfman cameo, and it was pretty amusing seeing him going up to Flash and Supergirl to ask for their autograph when he killed them off in the original story.

    Man, poor Diggle. He wasn't at either of Ollie's death scenes. Although I think they're saving up the big last stuff with Ollie and Team Arrow for the series finale.

    I knew they couldn't do this big a crossover, and involve the Legends, without a Beebo appearance.

    Sargon was a fun cameo, but it would've been neat to see Abra Kadabra back again.

    It was fitting for the Legends part of the crossover to see Sara taking a major leadership role among the heroes with Oliver gone. Next to Ollie she probably has the most experience leading a group of Superheroes, even if they don't always act like Superheroes. I wonder if that will continue moving forward in crossovers.

    Why is Rene acting like this is his first crossover? He was in Invasion! And Earth-X.

    Superman just turns up in the big group shot without any fanfare and barely does anything against the Anti-Monitor. His show can't come soon enough for him.

    The final battle did feel smaller then Earth-X, with less heroes. I guess they just couldn't figure a way for all the Legends, Team Arrow, or Team Flash to be in it. I mean, did Ralph do anything in this crossover? Nate and Ava were just on the Waverider. Neither Black Canary, Laurel or Dinah, got to really do anything.

    "New Universe, new look." Except...not really? It's just your normal costume with your human face. And then you transformed it into your Martian face soon anyways, so what was the point? I thought they were saving up all their Martian Manhunter budget for the crossover but it seems like they're still trying to find ways to not have to show him in his Martian form. I mean, he didn't even transform for the fight in Hour Four!

    Cisco didn't show up...is he still Vibe again?

    If Earth-Prime merged the Earth's and rebooted Earth-2...where does that leave Laurel? Her Earth is back but it isn't even her Earth anymore. She wasn't a Paragon, so would she even remember all this? Was she reformatted into Earth-1 Laurel?

    They missed the perfect opportunity for the Anti-Monitor to have his comic helmet when he supersized himself. It almost seemed like they were going to do it when that yellow energy was coursing through his face.

    Black Lightning is finally part of the Arrowverse proper, so it will be interesting to see how his show deals with being re-set back into Earth Prime and what Freeland is like in a world where various other Superheroes are established, although in-universe it seems like Black Lightning has only just started interacting with the greater hero community. I also wonder if we'll see any Arrowverse heroes pop up in Freeland in the future now, or if Black Lightning will now be a staple for the show-wide crossovers.

    Is that the same President as from Invasion!? I don't think it is.

    If Oliver's identity being public led to one good thing, it was the President letting the world know he helped sacrifice himself to save the universe and everyone, commending him as a true hero. So no matter what Oliver will always be remembered for the good he has done, and for his heroism, assuring his legacy.

    Now if only she could have intervened when the FBI was after him...

    Baby Sara! That was great to see. I'm curious if she'll be part of Mia's timeline now, and maybe that's how JJ doesn't end up a Deathstroke? I wonder if Lyla remembers being Harbinger.

    Superman wasn't a Paragon so I'm not sure why he was surprised at having two sons, unless J'onn's mind whammy to give him his memories back just made him forget. Is the other kid going to turn out to be Chris Kent/Lor-Zod?

    That honoring of Ollie in the Hall of Justice with the arrowhead funeral pyre was a nice touch, although while I get why they used his final Green Arrow costume, I would've used his season 5-7 suit since it felt more "Green Arrow."

    And what better way to cap the end of this crossover then by finally establishing the Arrowverse Justice League in the Hall of Justice and unveiling the Justice League round-table? Except...psyche! You thought they were the Justice League, but the reveal of Gleek and the theme music says they're really...THE SUPER FRIENDS !!!

    Do we need Superman and Supergirl on the same team, with their own chairs with the exact same logo? How do they know who's chair is whose?

    Can Laurel also use the Canary chair as Black Canary? Do she and Sara have the same logo?

    I liked them giving Green Arrow a chair as a way of honoring Ollie and doing a bit of a King Arthur by leaving a spot open for "the one true king" to return when he is needed. Or maybe Mia will sit in it.

    So the Multiverse is restored with a new DC TV Multiverse with all the DC Universe shows and, presumably, the main ******action ones that got hit by Crisis (So Smallville, Burton Batman, '66, etc.).

    There's something fitting about the JSA being on Earth-2 again, although does that mean John Wesley Shipp's Jay Garrick got shipped to that Earth? Is Earth-3 the Crime Syndicate Earth now?

    Do you think Jesse Quick got re-integrated into Earth-Prime, without Harry as her dad? Maybe now she's Johnny Quick's daughter again?

    I know they used movie footage for Earth-12, but I have to believe that is the Earth the HBOMax Green Lantern show is going to be set in.

    Titans and Doom Patrol being set on different Earths explains the different Chiefs?

    Seeing Routh's Superman survive brought such a smile to my face. He even looked at the camera like he was saying "you really thought that would be enough to stop me?" And he's restored to being a proper, colorful, Superman, so maybe they managed to avoid Kingdom Come with the reset.

  2. #1022
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    I wonder if the "Lex is beloved" storyline is the main setup of the new Superman show where they get to use a Lex who isn't a known criminal and Lois is trying to expose him.

    I think Alex isn't allowed to be in charge of the DEO because they like being able to defy authority on that show. The main characters are meant to be counter-culture so they can't be seen as "the man." That's why they eventually had J'onn leave once we found out he wasn't Henshaw and he was being shown as more heroic.
    Then they never should have put her in charge in the first place. Or she should have just left the DEO to work with J'onn. Hell, bring Brainy along and phase out the DEO, or make them antagonists on the show.


    Quote Originally Posted by protege View Post
    I saw a few pictures on Facebook; yes, grant and Ezra filmed together.
    Yeah, I saw those afterwards. I guess it was just the way it was filmed that made it look weird. Kind of like how nobody thought that Benedict Cumberbatch was actually at the funeral in Endgame, but he really was

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I like that Supergirl had the bangs in the flashback, because it wasn't a genuine flashback. It's a shard of memory that exists in the Speed Force. They shouldn't have gone to a lot of trouble to make it accurate--because memory isn't accurate. If you try to remember what your friend looked like three years ago, you're probably not going to get it right. You remember them with the haircut they have now. The other scene with Laurel and Diggle made that clear--it wasn't as things actually happened, it was a memory that Flash was able to intercede with.
    Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I guess I'm just not a fan of the bangs.


    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    2 - Where?
    Who was the guy playing the Wizard who was robbing the bank? For some reason I thought that was Taika Watiti. Looking on IMDB, it was actually Raśl Herrera, so not even close!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I know that a lot of critics take shots at these shows for their cheap effects and sets. But I always adjust my reaction to what show I'm watching. This is something they had to piece together while they were shooting other shows. And given all the limitations of time and money, I can't quarrel with the result. The producers actually did a lot with what they had--much more than I could have expected, really.
    Honestly, for the most part the FX works on all of these shows has been spectacular. Sure, they overreach every now and then, but at the same time I can appreciate their ambition. For every Bloodwork, we also get a King Shark, or Gorilla Grodd. And the FX work on this crossover was spectacular- even the Waverider looked ten times better. The Stay-Pufft Anti Monitor was a bit dodgy, but again I can appreciate their ambition for going there. The only complaint I had with that is that they could have put him in the classic armor with the helmet for that fight, since like in the comics his previous body was seemingly destroyed. But I guess they wanted the actor's face and emotions to be visible.

  3. #1023
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Gotta give Berlanti credit he got his Arrowverse to be officially Earth One and now Earth Prime and the various films Earths are just random Earths in the DC Live Action Multiverse Well Played.

  4. #1024
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    Lois said "the boys" and Superman said "the boys?" and she said "your sons." So I think his confusion is with her word selection--the boys could mean a TV series or a comic book--and she needed to clarify what she meant. To us, it sounds like he doesn't know that he has two sons now--but in the context, that doesn't have to be the case.

    Before, people were talking about Ollie not going shirtless--which could be because Amell would have to get his body in shape for those scenes, but it's likely also because shirtless Oliver has tattoos and scars and that takes time on Amell's schedule. It's just easier not to have all those shirtless scenes as it saves time--and both ARROW and COIE were on tight schedules. Which also explains why a lot of characters had to be dropped--because they just couldn't get them for some scenes. They might have even shot some stuff, but it didn't fit because they were missing certain elements to tie them into the story. I remember reading that Candice Patton was not available for some scenes in the earlier parts and then they had to redo those scenes with her in them.

    I'd like to see a part 6, where they show all the character missing scenes. Maybe on the DVD. But a lot of DVDs put deleted scenes in the special features--when I'd like to see them in the actual episode they were supposed to appear in. Maybe they could do an extended cut on a special DVD.

    The crossover managed to reflect some elements of the original COIE, without following the comic exactly. For instance, Lex is running his own scheme to take advantage of the Crisis (it's just he had a lot of villains, especially Brainiac, helping him). Constantine and Sargon both appear in COIE and their part is expanded in Alan Moore's SWAMP THING issues. The one thing I missed most was the two hands wrestling for the fate of the universe.

    I think they should have given Ryan Choi some ability so he wasn't just some random dude fighting Shadow Demons alongside all these people with powers and abilities. And later, when the Anti-Monitor became a giant, I wanted Ray to get big too, in the Atom suit--and that would have been an opportunity for Ryan to get Atom powers and sneak inside the A-M's armour with the "atom bomb."

    By now, they should just give J'Onn a full body suit that covers his whole head--then we can assume that's he's in his Martian form--problem solved.

    I believe Barry and Sara were at Victory Square (or near to it) when she was remembering that tree from her childhood--and that's where Remembrance Day ceremonies are held every November 11th. The Cenotaph is there to remember all the soldiers that fell in battle fighting for us all.

    If Batman and Superman were active a long while, then I don't think Green Arrow was the first of his kind. But Presidents are noted for saying things that aren't perfectly accurate--and on a meta level it had a truthiness to it. Earth-One used to have a male president--Earth-Prime has a female (but not alien Lynda Carter).

    Isn't Superman's symbol different from Supergirl's? I think his has the bubble tail on the S (the best version) while hers has the square tail.

    When they did flashbacks on SUPERGIRL with a wig, it looked pretty bad. So they probably decided this time to avoid the problem and let the hair be what it is.

    Honestly, the low-rent look of some of the effects and the outfits is the feature of the Arrowverse. It's what I'm here for. I want that cheese. Feed me some more.
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  5. #1025
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Lois said "the boys" and Superman said "the boys?" and she said "your sons." So I think his confusion is with her word selection--the boys could mean a TV series or a comic book--and she needed to clarify what she meant. To us, it sounds like he doesn't know that he has two sons now--but in the context, that doesn't have to be the case.
    I took it to mean that he wasn't aware they had two children now, but thinking it through, that doesn't actually make sense given that he wasn't one of the Paragons. Martian Manhunter clued the others in on what the universe was like pre-Crisis, but they wouldn't have forgotten the things they had always assumed to be true in their post-Crisis reality.

  6. #1026
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    Where was Thawne? He said he'd see Barry in Crisis. Did he overshot his run or was he stuck in the Speed Force?

    Seeing Oliver get to say "Run, Barry, Run" was pretty cathartic. I'm going to miss their friendship but I'm glad we got to see them emphasize how close they were before the crossover ended.

    I thought it was weird that they never once panned to Batwoman during the big fight. I was half-expecting Kate to be sneaking up on the Anti-Monitor.

    Superman just turns up in the big group shot without any fanfare and barely does anything against the Anti-Monitor. His show can't come soon enough for him.


    Lena has also apparently been reset back into being friends with Kara, unless the support is the act. Are they going to restore her Pre-Crisis memories or just leave her as is?

    Why is Rene acting like this is his first crossover? He was in Invasion! And Earth-X.

    The final battle did feel smaller then Earth-X, with less heroes. I guess they just couldn't figure a way for all the Legends, Team Arrow, or Team Flash to be in it. I mean, did Ralph do anything in this crossover? Nate and Ava were just on the Waverider. Neither Black Canary, Laurel or Dinah, got to really do anything.

    "New Universe, new look." Except...not really? It's just your normal costume with your human face. And then you transformed it into your Martian face soon anyways, so what was the point? I thought they were saving up all their Martian Manhunter budget for the crossover but it seems like they're still trying to find ways to not have to show him in his Martian form. I mean, he didn't even transform for the fight in Hour Four!

    Cisco didn't show up...is he still Vibe again?

    Do we need Superman and Supergirl on the same team, with their own chairs with the exact same logo? How do they know who's chair is whose?

    Seeing Routh's Superman survive brought such a smile to my face. He even looked at the camera like he was saying "you really thought that would be enough to stop me?" And he's restored to being a proper, colorful, Superman, so maybe they managed to avoid Kingdom Come with the reset.
    In order:

    That did bug me. Thawne said he'd see Barry in their next Crisis. And the article said that Thawne led an army of Shadow Demons. And it's not like they didn't have Cavanaugh for the episode.

    Agreed. I love that Oliver finally got to say that.

    A lot of characters got the short shrift here. Batwoman didn't get to do much, Superman was downplayed, Dreamer didn't even get a speaking line in the fight- heck, all of the ground fighters except for Sara kind of got lost in the shuffle.

    According to the preview for the next episode for Supergirl, it actually looks like Lena remembers everything, and that Lex will be playing into that to draw her to his side. So that is an interesting dynamic to be explored.

    Yeah, that was weird. The only thing I could think of is after the merge, neither Invasion or Crisis on Earth X happened, so to Renee this would be his first crossover. And can I say that, while it's cute that Legends goes meta and mentions the Crossover, it's just wrong for other characters to be doing that?

    I'm guessing that they finally hit the limitations of their budget. An army of Shadow Demons attacking should be an all hands on deck, but most of the Legends, Laurel, Dinah, Ralph, Cisco, the new chick that works with Iris- all MIA.

    Okay, so I'm not crazy and it was the same suit. I did think that was weird. And I also thought 'Well, guess they couldn't afford the transformation.', but then they did it anyways for a second.

    That is a good question. Maybe in this new universe he never took the cure. It would also be nice if his brother was alive again.

    It was subtle- Superman's chair had his symbol with the yellow background, and Supergirl's chair had her symbol outlined in gold with the blue background. And yes, you do need them both if they both will be helming their own shows; besides, Superman was technically active long before all of the others.

    I remember watching the Donner Cut of Superman II and listening to his commentary. At the end when Superman flies into space, he said he told Chris 'Smile for the camera, kid.", and that's how we got that shot of Christopher Reeves looking to the camera and smiling as he flew on. I was so happy that Brandon got to do that shot- it was a perfect ending for his Superman.

  7. #1027
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    From what I have heard, the army of shadow demons thing was dropped years ago.

    The rumor I’m hearing is that they did film a scene set inside the Speed Force with Thawne that handwaves that (and would have been Barry and Thawne talking with Thawne deciding NOT to lead the armies) but basically had to cut it for the Ezra Miller scene.

    And, really, everything about the newspaper article was invalidated the minute Earth-90 Flash died in Barry’s place and doubly invalidated when Earth-1 was destroyed.

    The next Flash episode is going to have some heavy lifting to address Nash, Vibe’s powers if there are any, any timeline changes, etc.

  8. #1028
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    How does this new Earth affect previously dead characters? Sara and Barry expected Oliver to be back even though he died twice in this crossover. I kinda expected for Earth 1 Laurel to pop up. Maybe Arrow will address it.

  9. #1029
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    I have loved this cross over event.

    The easter eggs throughout have been handled so beautifully IMO.

    1. They managed to redeem 90s flash, with a death that befitted

    2. Made Routh Superman the beakon of light that a poor script denied him in Superman returns (lets face it a Superman as boy scout as he should have been would have never left). Instead after a great loss he became a greater beakon.

    3. Tied almost every fictional live action DC universe (Keaton Batman, Reeves/Routh Superman, adventures of Superboy(the SM lois held in the death of Superman image), Smallville, 90s Flash, 66 Batman, Titans, Doom Patrol, Swamp Thing, Lucifer, DCEU, Black Lightning, Green Lantern, and the upcoming Stargirl into the arrowverse multiverse. Literally the only live action series/movies without a cameo link are 50s Superman, 70s Shazam/Isis/Wonder woman (who i beleive appeared in the tie in comic), Lois and Clark, Gotham and Human Target.

    4. They gave their character who started it all the most fitting send off, the right to sacrifice himself for everyrhing (twice) that also serves to make him the icon the others all look up to after hes gone. The yerm Artowverse jas stronger meaning bow since it was literally crested by the sacrifice of the man known as arrow.

    5. Theyve successfully set it up to take the arrowverse anywhere even to a Justice League show.

    6. They even had a Stan Lee like MCU moment with Marv Wolfman getting autographs from SG and Flash.

    It made perfect sense that the only earths that didnt merge into earth Prime were the ones that had established history (outside Cw creators control) that makes heroes exist before Ollie as Arrow (undermining the whole he was the first hero. Titans were active 5 years ago as older teens after having been active as sidkicks to heroes active longer before that. Doom Patrol had a team that are now old and some have bee. Around for decades. Stargirl has a JSA who were active some time ago. Routh Supes has a long history. GLs have been around for centuries.

  10. #1030
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    In the context of the Crisis, that Doom Patrol dance was really cute. It was a cute scene already on its own but for me the viewer it really nailed that feeling of joyous relief after such high stakes.

    Also, Shadow Demons have to be the least threatening henchmen ever. Throw a chancla at it and it disappears.

  11. #1031
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    If Batman and Superman were active a long while, then I don't think Green Arrow was the first of his kind. But Presidents are noted for saying things that aren't perfectly accurate--and on a meta level it had a truthiness to it. Earth-One used to have a male president--Earth-Prime has a female (but not alien Lynda Carter).
    Earth-1 had a female President after her predecessor was killed by the Dominators during Invasion!, although I think this is a different woman.

    Actually, I wonder how this tracks with all the President fiasco in Supergirl last season now that they are one Earth. Was Lynda Carter made President after Invasion!?
    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    According to the preview for the next episode for Supergirl, it actually looks like Lena remembers everything, and that Lex will be playing into that to draw her to his side. So that is an interesting dynamic to be explored.
    That should definitely be interesting.

    Yeah, that was weird. The only thing I could think of is after the merge, neither Invasion or Crisis on Earth X happened, so to Renee this would be his first crossover. And can I say that, while it's cute that Legends goes meta and mentions the Crossover, it's just wrong for other characters to be doing that?
    And why do they act like they get shanghaied into these crossovers? They're as much willing participants as everyone else is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    From what I have heard, the army of shadow demons thing was dropped years ago.

    The rumor I’m hearing is that they did film a scene set inside the Speed Force with Thawne that handwaves that (and would have been Barry and Thawne talking with Thawne deciding NOT to lead the armies) but basically had to cut it for the Ezra Miller scene.

    And, really, everything about the newspaper article was invalidated the minute Earth-90 Flash died in Barry’s place and doubly invalidated when Earth-1 was destroyed.
    Somebody spotted Reverse-Flash in some of the promo for the second half, so I figured he was cut.
    The next Flash episode is going to have some heavy lifting to address Nash, Vibe’s powers if there are any, any timeline changes, etc.
    I assume Nash will now join Team Flash proper to make up for starting Crisis, but Team Flash will want nothing to do with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Also, Shadow Demons have to be the least threatening henchmen ever. Throw a chancla at it and it disappears.
    Even powerless scientist Ryan Choi was able to beat them.

  12. #1032
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    Seems like the multiverse is now a unknown concept to Cisco?

  13. #1033
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    Seems like the multiverse is now a unknown concept to Cisco?
    I guess in a merged Earth Vibe would never have been able to vibe to multiple Earths like he did in the past. Nobody seemed aware of the Multiverse until J'onn made them remember.

    Which makes me really curious if Earth-X still happened. And if it didn't, maybe Professor Stein is still alive.

  14. #1034
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    Also there might not be an Earth X.

  15. #1035
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    I'm guessing that the cinematic aspect ratio for the Speed Force scenes makes it more likely that their "Flash of Two Worlds" could be used again in a Flash movie. 24 hours ago, I would have said the likelihood of that movie ever being made was low--but COIE makes it seem much more possible now. Clever move on Ezra Miller's part.
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