Wonder Woman #60 - The Just War, Pt. 3 (Spoilers)

[Stanlos]

10 responses going on 11 in this thread. That seems an indicator of the lack of interest I feel this title has right now. The fights seem forced. The dialogue is tedious. I am liking very little about this run so far.

It is the art for me. It is a chore to get through the book. The art is inconsistent, often thumbnail level sketchy, and Diana often appears pre-teeny.

But then I am still waiting on the 12 issue Jim Lee run collaborating with a scribe that likes the character and seeks to celebrate her.

[brettc1]

10 responses going on 11 in this thread. That seems an indicator of the lack of interest I feel this title has right now. The fights seem forced. The dialogue is tedious. I am liking very little about this run so far.

It often seems to me that, in terms of the books, interest on this board has not yet recovered from the Finch debacle.

[Doctor Bifrost]

I am reading this story and feeling like I'm not quite understanding the context.

They keep playing it as "Can Diana and Ares go from their history as enemies to allies?" That may reflect Wonder Woman's long publication history. But from my understanding, in the current version of things, Ares has spent thousands of years (including all of Diana's lifetime) imprisoned beneath Themyscira, where he was depicted as being passive, complacent, and relatively content. Diana and Ares have never fought each other. He's been off the board for millennia. (I thought this was a poor choice for "The Truth," specifically because it makes it impossible to include a very interesting deity in Diana's backstory, and any history going back a long time. But there we were.)

Also: If a god is killed (Ares by Grail, in this case), he is instantly restored to life as a full-powered god? This makes battles between god-like beings a little weird. Also, just a short time back, Darkseid killed Zeus, and Diana and Jason treated it like a tremendous, tragic loss. More recently, Poseidon was killed, and Aquaman and his friends took it quite seriously. If gods are instantly reincarnated, what's the big deal?

In this issue Ares says, ""For decades I sat alone in that prison..." Decades? That's a lot shorter than we heard before.

Also, although it hasn't come up too specifically here: I've been reading, mainly in JL-related comics, that all the gods have left Olympus, and are basically... in hiding? But if they've told us why, I can't seem to remember.

Possibly one reason I am reacting to the story in this way is that (other than the fact that I have a long-time interest in continuity and world-building), since the start of The New 52, I've wanted to know more about the Amazons. What's their relationship to the gods? Who created them, and why? Are they immortal? Is Hippolyta the first queen of the Amazons, or are we a few generations in? They've never been clear on this, and now they seem to be changing it every year or so.

I haven't really taken to the art, either. All the characters seem somehow unfinished. Diana sometimes looks like a skinny teenager, and when I got to the last page I thought: That's Aphrodite? She looks like a really Emo Aphrodite to me.Every writer is entitled to their interpretation, but some work better for me than others.

I will certainly give this arc a few more issues, but I can't claim that it's really grabbed me.

[kjn]

They keep playing it as "Can Diana and Ares go from their history as enemies to allies?" That may reflect Wonder Woman's long publication history. But from my understanding, in the current version of things, Ares has spent thousands of years (including all of Diana's lifetime) imprisoned beneath Themyscira, where he was depicted as being passive, complacent, and relatively content. Diana and Ares have never fought each other. He's been off the board for millennia. (I thought this was a poor choice for "The Truth," specifically because it makes it impossible to include a very interesting deity in Diana's backstory, and any history going back a long time. But there we were.)

I read this more as a meta-story. Rucka did a poor choice, and Wilson took a sword to undo that knot on-camera with a flair, and then she waved her hands to bring in all of the Diana–Ares conflicts of old. Given the usually loose approach to continuity and past story in superhero comics, this barely registered for me.

I'm also not really reading the story as "can they be allies", more that Wilson decided to dig into some more aspects of Ares than the rather one-note use he has been in Wonder Woman (or for that matter most Greek myths). She's bringing in some of the ideas of Mars, who among other things acted as a god of justice (though mostly in the upholding the law sense rather than in seeking just decisions).

Also: If a god is killed (Ares by Grail, in this case), he is instantly restored to life as a full-powered god? This makes battles between god-like beings a little weird. Also, just a short time back, Darkseid killed Zeus, and Diana and Jason treated it like a tremendous, tragic loss. More recently, Poseidon was killed, and Aquaman and his friends took it quite seriously. If gods are instantly reincarnated, what's the big deal?

In this issue Ares says, ""For decades I sat alone in that prison..." Decades? That's a lot shorter than we heard before.

Ask the writers… though in the case of Ares, you at least have the excuse that he was in limbo. And time might run differently there or on Themyscira compared to the rest of the world. (I imagine gods have a slightly skewed sense of time as well.)

Then I also wonder if the destruction of Olympos in JLD ties into this or not…

Possibly one reason I am reacting to the story in this way is that (other than the fact that I have a long-time interest in continuity and world-building), since the start of The New 52, I've wanted to know more about the Amazons. What's their relationship to the gods? Who created them, and why? Are they immortal? Is Hippolyta the first queen of the Amazons, or are we a few generations in? They've never been clear on this, and now they seem to be changing it every year or so.

I think a lot of those questions have never really been answered. Pérez of course tied into it a lot, but most other writers seems to shy away from trying to dig into Amazon culture, or set out to destroy it (Azzarello). But I can recommend The Legend of Wonder Woman by Renae de Liz for one solid take on Amazon culture.

[Pinsir]

Without going through every modern (Post-Crisis) Wonder Woman story I tried to think which stories use monologue boxes and which ones didn't and here's my list (may not be 100% accurate):

--Used monologue box: Meredith Finch, Greg Rucka (Hiketeia), Gail Simone, James Robinson, Messner Loebs (also used speech bubbles!), Walter Simonson, Geoff Johns (his New 52 JL run)

--Didn't use monologue box: Greg Rucka (his Rebirth run, with exception to WW: Rebirth and I think his original run too), Brian Azzarello, George Perez (I thought he did, but checking some of the pages I have saved, he used narrator boxes, not monologue), Grant Morrison, Jill Tompson

From this data I can tell you the stories I favour tend to be those from the bottom. Those at the top aim to show Wonder Woman with greater intimacy and I do like some of them, like Messner-Loebs work. I think the problem with the monologue box for Wonder Woman though is primarily that author's use it to overshare her emotions which tends to make the character look kind of feeble. Hiketeia is probably an example of good monologing as the graphic novel is limited to a particular context. She doesn't share her thoughts on a myriad of subjects, but only at the conflict she finds herself in.

[Agent Z]

Without going through every modern (Post-Crisis) Wonder Woman story I tried to think which stories use monologue boxes and which ones didn't and here's my list (may not be 100% accurate):

--Used monologue box: Meredith Finch, Greg Rucka (Hiketeia), Gail Simone, James Robinson, Messner Loebs (also used speech bubbles!), Walter Simonson, Geoff Johns (his New 52 JL run)

--Didn't use monologue box: Greg Rucka (his Rebirth run, with exception to WW: Rebirth and I think his original run too), Brian Azzarello, George Perez (I thought he did, but checking some of the pages I have saved, he used narrator boxes, not monologue), Grant Morrison, Jill Tompson

From this data I can tell you the stories I favour tend to be those from the bottom. Those at the top aim to show Wonder Woman with greater intimacy and I do like some of them, like Messner-Loebs work. I think the problem with the monologue box for Wonder Woman though is primarily that author's use it to overshare her emotions which tends to make the character look kind of feeble. Hiketeia is probably an example of good monologing as the graphic novel is limited to a particular context. She doesn't share her thoughts on a myriad of subjects, but only at the conflict she finds herself in.

So clearly the issue isn't the monologue boxes but how they are used.

[SiegePerilous02]

I am reading this story and feeling like I'm not quite understanding the context.

They keep playing it as "Can Diana and Ares go from their history as enemies to allies?" That may reflect Wonder Woman's long publication history. But from my understanding, in the current version of things, Ares has spent thousands of years (including all of Diana's lifetime) imprisoned beneath Themyscira, where he was depicted as being passive, complacent, and relatively content. Diana and Ares have never fought each other. He's been off the board for millennia. (I thought this was a poor choice for "The Truth," specifically because it makes it impossible to include a very interesting deity in Diana's backstory, and any history going back a long time. But there we were.

I'm not really viewing it as Wilson playing up the fact that they used to be old enemies. The solicits and covers are, but that's not on her. Even without a history with Ares, Diana knows his reputation from other Amazons, as shown in Year One. And it is far from good, and when you add on the fact that she later learned he was imprisoned because he's so dangerous and now he's free and claiming to have changed, her reactions in this story make sense even without a history of face-to-face enemies.

I kind of have to disagree with it being a poor choice on Rucka's part. I don't think Ares has ever been a particularly interesting villain or deity for Diana to interact with, especially in the modern versions removed from the WWII context. The only exceptions are Rucka's first run, Azzarello's (who wasn't a villain and his revamp had its own set of issues) and possibly here. Diana and Ares may not have fought each other until now, but I honestly don't think she or we are missing out on much story-wise. Gods and Mortals is pretty much their rivalry in a nutshell, and it's kind of limited. His sons (and possibly Eris, who is hinted at in Year One as being out there) filled his function fine.

[kjn]

I do think there is a case to be made for that Diana's origin story should include fighting Ares: it's why she traditionally leaves Themyscira. And since Rucka put Ares in limbo, Wilson found a way to get him out and open up new storytelling avenues involving lots more of the gods.

Now, as for poor use of Ares, I think Pérez missed a great opening when he had Diana fight Ares in his first arc. The Cold War and the MAD doctrine was much more an Athena gone crazy rather than Ares being too influential.

(If Jenkins goes that way in WW84, I'll be seriously impressed. But that movie already has oodles of angles to examine.)

[SiegePerilous02]

I do think there is a case to be made for that Diana's origin story should include fighting Ares: it's why she traditionally leaves Themyscira. And since Rucka put Ares in limbo, Wilson found a way to get him out and open up new storytelling avenues involving lots more of the gods.

Well in Year One, she still leaves the island due to a divine plot related to Ares. And even believed it was him she was fighting against and not his sons. Ares is still the motivating factor for Diana's origin story and the origin stories/motivations for five of her villains (Cale, Cheetah, Deimos, Phobos, Dr. Cyber). Beyond the origin story, Ares typically doesn't have much use anyway, so Rucka sidelining him and allowing his sons to get the ball rolling to free him isn't much of a loss, IMO.

I do agree that Wilson setting him up as a villain going forward has a lot of promise, especially as she's building off of Rucka's foundation in a natural way: Diana and Ares never fought before, but now they may because he's free. But the canon as it exists now is fine. I wouldn't want to work "Wonder Woman vs. Ares" stories back into Diana's past, because he's simply not worth it. Especially as his imprisonment is necessary for the circumstances leading to the creation of three better villains in the current canon.

[kjn]

Yeah—no argument that it's great that Wilson appears to be building forwards instead of spinning backwards, as too many writers have done.

[Zahina]

Did anyone like how Ares was protrayed in the 2009 animated Wonder Woman movie?

[Nyssane]

Did anyone like how Ares was protrayed in the 2009 animated Wonder Woman movie?

I found him incredibly generic honestly.

[kjn]

I don't really remember a lot of the 2009 movie, except that horrible scene where Steve Trevor tries to get Diana drunk. There is a lot left to be desired in the way it presented the characters…

[SiegePerilous02]

I found him incredibly generic honestly.

Yeah, same. Kind of a waste of Alfred Molina too.

As far as Steve, that movie was never great. It is doubly underwhelming now in a world where Chris Pine's Steve exists.
WW really deserved better than that movie. The Amazons having some tech and the Cheetah cameo at the end were the only things it had going for it.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Did anyone like how Ares was protrayed in the 2009 animated Wonder Woman movie?

I kinda forgot that the baddie in that movie was supposed to be Ares. ^^;