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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Ultra_Sonic's Avatar
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    Default Gellert Grindelwald vs. Tom Marvolo Riddle

    Both wizards are at their best for this scenario.

    No plot devices.

    No plot armor.

    No PIS.

    No CIS.

    No WIS.

  2. #2
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Gellerts best stuff? Noiseless has that lethal soul kill Thing is why I ask.

  3. #3
    Voice of the Authorities Cleric of Hellís Brigade's Avatar
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    Gellert fought Dumbledore at his best and lost. He was also a multi-country threat.

    Riddle fought Dumbledore at the end of his life and couldn’t beat him. He made England afraid of him.

    I would back Gellert myself.
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  4. #4
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleric of Hell’s Brigade View Post
    Gellert fought Dumbledore at his best and lost. He was also a multi-country threat.

    Riddle fought Dumbledore at the end of his life and couldn’t beat him. He made England afraid of him.

    I would back Gellert myself.
    Taking your word on it. Harry Potter and super powers school kids in general rubs me off the wrong way.

  5. #5
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleric of Hellís Brigade View Post
    Gellert fought Dumbledore at his best and lost. He was also a multi-country threat.

    Riddle fought Dumbledore at the end of his life and couldnít beat him. He made England afraid of him.

    I would back Gellert myself.
    That's entirely conjecture.

    Voldemort has considerably more feats. Grindelwald has mostly standard wizard stuff, his biggest thing was summoning what appeared to be a higher form of fiendfyre that took the efforts of four or five other wizards to dispel.

    I'd back Tom.
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  6. #6
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    by presentation, gellert should be stronger since he fought Dumbledore at his prime and only barely lost, while tom, as cleric said, fought him at the tail end of his life and couldn't really win.

    but by pure feats, tom just has better showings than gellert. so like nik, i'm throwing my hat with tommy.

  7. #7
    Voice of the Authorities Cleric of Hellís Brigade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    That's entirely conjecture.

    Voldemort has considerably more feats. Grindelwald has mostly standard wizard stuff, his biggest thing was summoning what appeared to be a higher form of fiendfyre that took the efforts of four or five other wizards to dispel.

    I'd back Tom.
    I know, I know. Hopefully Gellert will have some good feats in the next movie.

    Though he has shown impressive shields and apparating rather quickly. And the killing curse (green smoke thing).

    And summoning lightning?
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  8. #8
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleric of Hell’s Brigade View Post
    I know, I know. Hopefully Gellert will have some good feats in the next movie.

    Though he has shown impressive shields and apparating rather quickly. And the killing curse (green smoke thing).

    And summoning lightning?
    Given the scale of the big explosion caused by a character who will remain nameless because spoilers at the end of the last Fantastic Beasts film, if Grindelwald gets feats on that scale, he'll be a bit beyond Voldy's paygrade.

    But yeah, give it two years for another film to come out.
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  9. #9
    Mighty Member moonknight11's Avatar
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    Do wizards get worse as they age? Like is there any reason to believe Dumbledore is worse in a duel than he used to be? He should at least have experience and more knowledge on his side, and iirc he had the elder wand at the time too no?

  10. #10
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleric of Hell’s Brigade View Post
    Gellert fought Dumbledore at his best and lost. He was also a multi-country threat.

    Riddle fought Dumbledore at the end of his life and couldn’t beat him. He made England afraid of him.

    I would back Gellert myself.
    It bears noting that Dumbledore beat Gellert while the latter had the Elder Wand, and even then, Dumbledore doesn't make it sound like it was something that was hard to do, but rather something he was hesitant to do due to their shared history. By the time Riddle shows up, Dumbledore is the one with the Elder Wand, and Riddle stills hangs in there just fine.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    It bears noting that Dumbledore beat Gellert while the latter had the Elder Wand, and even then, Dumbledore doesn't make it sound like it was something that was hard to do, but rather something he was hesitant to do due to their shared history. By the time Riddle shows up, Dumbledore is the one with the Elder Wand, and Riddle stills hangs in there just fine.
    Even saying that Voldemort is "hanging in there" kind of ignores that he had Dumbledore dead to right in their very short duel, with Dumbledore only living thanks to Fawkes jumping in front of a killing curse. And that was with Dumbledore getting to animate the statues before they started dueling.

    If you set aside their personalities that make Dumbledore come off as better (since he's cool while Voldemort is very emotive) and only look at their actions, the duel plays out as Dumbledore quickly running out of options to defend himself with.

    This, incidentally, matches Dumbledore's own assessment of their strength; he always states that Voldemort is stronger than him and that even his best efforts would only buy time. It's only the other members of the Order who insist that he's surely better.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonknight11 View Post
    Do wizards get worse as they age? Like is there any reason to believe Dumbledore is worse in a duel than he used to be? He should at least have experience and more knowledge on his side, and iirc he had the elder wand at the time too no?
    The oldest wizard was 755 and still able enough to host massive parties for his birthday.

    Even if you set aside that one due to being movie-only and kinda weird, the government officials who oversaw Dumbledore's own exams at Hogwarts were noted to still be alive and well, commenting on his amazing performance back then in interviews, and the previous headmaster lived to around 350 years old.

    Dumbledore was nowhere near the end of his natural life and is consistently shown to not suffer any of the effects of old age except when he pretends to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleric of Hell’s Brigade View Post
    And summoning lightning?
    The lightning was already there, they were inside thunderclouds at the time. So it's more manipulating than calling.

    The biggest obstacle to Grindelwald getting any impressive dueling feats is that the wizards in his series tend to forget that they're wizards and just use their wands as generic bug zappers in fights. In fact, the Aurors that he burnt with Protego Diabolica didn't even do that much; they just tried to run away and died, when both apparating and using your wand to defend yourself were shown to work just fine against it.
    Last edited by Siriel; 12-13-2018 at 06:59 PM.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Given the scale of the big explosion caused by a character who will remain nameless because spoilers at the end of the last Fantastic Beasts film, if Grindelwald gets feats on that scale, he'll be a bit beyond Voldy's paygrade.
    That feat is noted in the script to involve channeling his power as an Obscurus, so don't expect Grindelwald to pull off similar things in term of raw power.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    by presentation, gellert should be stronger since he fought Dumbledore at his prime and only barely lost, while tom, as cleric said, fought him at the tail end of his life and couldn't really win.

    but by pure feats, tom just has better showings than gellert. so like nik, i'm throwing my hat with tommy.
    That's very poor logic, imo, when you're talking about wizards. They only get more powerful with age, as a wizard's power grows as his knowledge and understanding grows. It's why Yoda was this seemingly feeble old goblin, why Gandalf is an old, world-worn hermit, and so on. I'd argue that young dumbledor wouldn't be even half as strong in wizardry as old dumbledor, or any other sorcerer/wizard. The only time we really see a young supreme wizard is Dr. Strange, but even he's not really young, typically shown with a bit of the ol' salt n pepper in his hair, similar to reed Richards, men physically past their prime.

    So, by that standard, I'd say that makes Johnny Depp look that much less impressive. Besides, what's he going to do against Horcruxes? *No, I don't consider them PIS/CIS, but a legitimate defensive magic conjured by evil means, but valid none the less. Not to mention he was creating these magical defenses for himself since childhood, proven by the fact of his schooltime diary being one (probably the first) of them, so the argument of fighting pre-horcrux is more or less null, as we have no reference to boyhood Gellert (yet).
    Last edited by seaturkey; 12-13-2018 at 10:40 PM.

  14. #14
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seaturkey View Post
    That's very poor logic, imo, when you're talking about wizards. They only get more powerful with age, as a wizard's power grows as his knowledge and understanding grows. It's why Yoda was this seemingly feeble old goblin, why Gandalf is an old, world-worn hermit, and so on. I'd argue that young dumbledor wouldn't be even half as strong in wizardry as old dumbledor, or any other sorcerer/wizard. The only time we really see a young supreme wizard is Dr. Strange, but even he's not really young, typically shown with a bit of the ol' salt n pepper in his hair, similar to reed Richards, men physically past their prime.

    So, by that standard, I'd say that makes Johnny Depp look that much less impressive. Besides, what's he going to do against Horcruxes? *No, I don't consider them PIS/CIS, but a legitimate defensive magic conjured by evil means, but valid none the less. Not to mention he was creating these magical defenses for himself since childhood, proven by the fact of his schooltime diary being one (probably the first) of them, so the argument of fighting pre-horcrux is more or less null, as we have no reference to boyhood Gellert (yet).
    my point still stands.

    by feats, tom has the edge. that may change with the next movie but as of now, this fight belongs to tom.

  15. #15
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    Are we using movie or book feats, or both here?

    I get that we kinda have to use movie feats for Grindelwald since that's the only concrete stuff we have for him. But what about Voldemort?

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