Too Many X-Men/Lack of Team Structure

[CRaymond]

What I like most about Piotr, and what I think is really missing from his portrayals is that he is an artist. While X-Men like Storm and Nightcrawler have pursuits and professions, I always got the sense they defined themselves as mutants first. With Piotr, it’s not like that... and he’s unique among who I consider A-List. He’s the ANAD Weapon XV, who asks bigger questions and sees bigger worlds than social conflicts and living weaponry. He’s an artist... who happens to be a mutant. It informs his Boy Scout behavior, and lifts him toward optimism.

Cyclops’ Boy Scout behavior drives him downward because he has no form of self-expression aside from mass destruction. The comparison and contrast between Cyclops and Colossus is poignant and usually ignored because both characters are so dry. And yet they get the girls.

[DragonflyJones]

Night crawler and Colossus aren’t core.

This is..........quite disturbing to me lol

They were in the group that practically started the X-men. The ANAD iteration of the team is what really kicked off this franchise. They have been long standing members since the 70s. They've been in almost every major story and event of the series. They've been in video games, cartoons, movies etc.

I can't believe I have to tell people this........in an X-men forum

[Snoop Dogg]

This is..........quite disturbing to me lol

They were in the group that practically started the X-men. The ANAD iteration of the team is what really kicked off this franchise. They have been long standing members since the 70s. They've been in almost every major story and event of the series. They've been in video games, cartoons, movies etc.

I can't believe I have to tell people this........in an X-men forum

They are not core. They're not in all the X-Men movies. They're not in all the X-Men cartoons, like the most famous X-Men cartoon. They were both dead for years and had to be brought back by writers who liked them, not editors. Nightcrawler left the Uncanny books for years prior without issue. You could remove both of them from the past three years of X-Men books and nothing would change because the Colossus marriage plot got changed by editors. You can argue that a bunch of Spider-Man characters are core, but the truth is that the only one you really couldn't keep out of the picture for too long is Spider-Man, who is core. The X-Men are an ensemble franchise. If an ensemble cast cannot survive without a few characters because they were around during the peak, then you're doing something wrong (talking to you, modern X-Office).

Once again, the only X-Man who is actually essential is the one who is their own franchise, and that's Wolverine. Next you would look at characters like Cyclops, Storm, and Magneto. Characters who are actually vital parts of most big X-Men stories. Not just guys who were there for most of them, like Pete and Kurt.

[DragonflyJones]

They are not core. They're not in all the X-Men movies. They're not in all the X-Men cartoons, like the most famous X-Men cartoon. They were both dead for years and had to be brought back by writers who liked them, not editors. Nightcrawler left the Uncanny books for years prior without issue. You could remove both of them from the past three years of X-Men books and nothing would change because the Colossus marriage plot got changed by editors. You can argue that a bunch of Spider-Man characters are core, but the truth is that the only one you really couldn't keep out of the picture for too long is Spider-Man, who is core. The X-Men are an ensemble franchise. If an ensemble cast cannot survive without a few characters because they were around during the peak, then you're doing something wrong (talking to you, modern X-Office).

Once again, the only X-Man who is actually essential is the one who is their own franchise, and that's Wolverine. Next you would look at characters like Cyclops, Storm, and Magneto. Characters who are actually vital parts of most big X-Men stories. Not just guys who were there for most of them, like Pete and Kurt.

Negative. This isn't a popularity contest
We were talking about the core OG members of the team

There is a FOUNDATION. They might add a member here and remove a member there but there are CORE members that make up the basis of the team. The characters that have been here the longest and made the most contributions. The characters that would usually fill in a roster. The actual titular characters of the comic book.

I brought up the other forms of entertainment to make a point that even the media recognizes their membership. And yes, both Pete and Kurt were in the 90s cartoon.

Now if you want to argue about characters like Banshee or Forge etc. not being core members, of course I can understand...but Nightcrawler and Colossus... you joking right? Y'all must be smoking that good herb lol

[Killerbee911]

i understand what you're saying, but i do believe there are core members. people who are constantly in the spotlight, popular and when they're on a book it generally sells well. Cyclops, wolverine, storm, nightcrawler. these are core members. replace all of those guys with havok, banshee, cannonball and polaris, and no disrespect to fans of these characters, but i can't see it selling as well.

People say stuff like this but it isn't quite the truth. Yes if you brutally over turn team roster a X-book won't sell as well fans hate big change but X-franchise has gradually swap out every big name with no issue including Wolverine, Cyclops and Xavier all being dead or gone at the same time. It wouldn't be a good idea to throw out all the popular/original members(Xavier,Cyclops, Jean, Iceman, Beast, Angel, Storm, Wolverine,Kitty, Nightcrawler and Colossus) in one shot BUT your example is misleading yeah havok, banshee, cannonball and polaris isn't going to sell BUT A

Rogue, Gambit, Cable ,Deadpool, Emma, Bishop, Psylocke, X-23 , Jubilee, and Magik X-men book would sell.

What other franchise could remove the first 10 to 12 major characters introduced and not have a fan revolt and the book sell in about the same range ? If you wanted to smooth the transition you keep one of Storm,Jean Grey,Wolverine and Cyclops around a little longer not because they are core but X-men leadership has been very specific thing and it takes awhile to build character in the fans minds as that. It wouldn't take very long to build Emma,Cable or Rogue into the next Big leader and remove the old leader. No one X-man is core.

[Sundown]

This is..........quite disturbing to me lol

They were in the group that practically started the X-men. The ANAD iteration of the team is what really kicked off this franchise. They have been long standing members since the 70s. They've been in almost every major story and event of the series. They've been in video games, cartoons, movies etc.

I can't believe I have to tell people this........in an X-men forum

Pretty much this, yes

[Offbeat]

Rogue, Gambit, Cable, Emma, Bishop, Psylocke, X-23 , Jubilee, and Magik X-men book would sell.

So, like......can we have this please Marvel? Thanks. Just sub out Deadpool for another male X-"kid". Cannonball, Hellion, Rockslide, Anole, etc.

[cranger]

People say stuff like this but it isn't quite the truth. Yes if you brutally over turn team roster a X-book won't sell as well fans hate big change but X-franchise has gradually swap out every big name with no issue including Wolverine, Cyclops and Xavier all being dead or gone at the same time. It wouldn't be a good idea to throw out all the popular/original members(Xavier,Cyclops, Jean, Iceman, Beast, Angel, Storm, Wolverine,Kitty, Nightcrawler and Colossus) in one shot BUT your example is misleading yeah havok, banshee, cannonball and polaris isn't going to sell BUT A

Rogue, Gambit, Cable ,Deadpool, Emma, Bishop, Psylocke, X-23 , Jubilee, and Magik X-men book would sell.

What other franchise could remove the first 10 to 12 major characters introduced and not have a fan revolt and the book sell in about the same range ? If you wanted to smooth the transition you keep one of Storm,Jean Grey,Wolverine and Cyclops around a little longer not because they are core but X-men leadership has been very specific thing and it takes awhile to build character in the fans minds as that. It wouldn't take very long to build Emma,Cable or Rogue into the next Big leader and remove the old leader. No one X-man is core.

Cable and Rogue already have the qualifications, and Emma should probably fit in the Xavier/Worthington role of funding the team.

I think the problem most of the books that want to do this have is that, as you say, you can't just throw everyone out, or you can't just go from nothing to this and there is always the question of why does this team even exist. A progression to this lineup through years of stories, or a result of a story that leads to the need, is the way to go, but that would require Marvel to establish a stable foundation and let it be for some time.

[CRaymond]

So, like......can we have this please Marvel? Thanks. Just sub out Deadpool for another male X-"kid". Cannonball, Hellion, Rockslide, Anole, etc.

Iceman.

But seriously, KB has a point.

B-Listers all have badassness that could probably sell a good book. A-listers usually have to fight for the badassness that B-Listers have in spades. Remove that fight, you have a great book with LOTS of personality. You just end up with a lack of what A-Listers bring: integrity.

<raises heat shields>

[jpmst17]

People say stuff like this but it isn't quite the truth. Yes if you brutally over turn team roster a X-book won't sell as well fans hate big change but X-franchise has gradually swap out every big name with no issue including Wolverine, Cyclops and Xavier all being dead or gone at the same time. It wouldn't be a good idea to throw out all the popular/original members(Xavier,Cyclops, Jean, Iceman, Beast, Angel, Storm, Wolverine,Kitty, Nightcrawler and Colossus) in one shot BUT your example is misleading yeah havok, banshee, cannonball and polaris isn't going to sell BUT A

Rogue, Gambit, Cable ,Deadpool, Emma, Bishop, Psylocke, X-23 , Jubilee, and Magik X-men book would sell.

What other franchise could remove the first 10 to 12 major characters introduced and not have a fan revolt and the book sell in about the same range ? If you wanted to smooth the transition you keep one of Storm,Jean Grey,Wolverine and Cyclops around a little longer not because they are core but X-men leadership has been very specific thing and it takes awhile to build character in the fans minds as that. It wouldn't take very long to build Emma,Cable or Rogue into the next Big leader and remove the old leader. No one X-man is core.

I won't argue that a book like that would sell, a lot of that would be due to deadpool, but i don't think it would sell as well as a book featuring the core members. an adult O5 book would probably outsell it to be honest

[jpmst17]

They are not core. They're not in all the X-Men movies. They're not in all the X-Men cartoons, like the most famous X-Men cartoon. They were both dead for years and had to be brought back by writers who liked them, not editors. Nightcrawler left the Uncanny books for years prior without issue. You could remove both of them from the past three years of X-Men books and nothing would change because the Colossus marriage plot got changed by editors. You can argue that a bunch of Spider-Man characters are core, but the truth is that the only one you really couldn't keep out of the picture for too long is Spider-Man, who is core. The X-Men are an ensemble franchise. If an ensemble cast cannot survive without a few characters because they were around during the peak, then you're doing something wrong (talking to you, modern X-Office).

Once again, the only X-Man who is actually essential is the one who is their own franchise, and that's Wolverine. Next you would look at characters like Cyclops, Storm, and Magneto. Characters who are actually vital parts of most big X-Men stories. Not just guys who were there for most of them, like Pete and Kurt.

I think Nightcrawler and Collosus are core members. Nightcrawlers appearance in X-2 was more popular than anything bobby has done in the movies. Yes Kurt and Piotr have stepped away from the franchise and died, but they were missed. I also look at what the characters do when they are on a team. Nightcrawler led an uncanny team, i don't recall bobby ever being put in charge. I like all 3 characters, but i definitely consider Kurt and Piotr core members

[Sundown]

Yup! The A-List X-Men are definitely Scott, Jean, Logan, Ororo, Hank, Bobby, and Anna Marie. Add Prof X and Magneto to that as tertiary. Everyone else is B or C list.

Disagree.

Scott, Jean, Logan, Ororo, Rogue, Kurt, Colossus, Kitty with Mags and Prof X are core. Hank and Bobby right after, as both worked for many years off the team and as guest appearances. (The professor, imo, works as well as a symbol as he does a character.) Kurt, Piotr and Kitty were even brought back from their own successful series to rejoin the main team as core cast.

Psylocke, Gambit and Emma likely come next, then Laura as the single "newcomer", then anyone else with most students probably scraping the bottom with the exceptions of characters like Lifeguard and the like. There are a handful of students that have more shine to them, but they're still peripheral, at best.

Someone else was saying you can weed out the core members (why on EARTH would they want to?!) and not lose the franchise, but going without these mainstays does drop sales figures and interest.

Did JDW just do a fun little twitter poll on popularity recently? That should give some indications, by sampling.

[cranger]

Scott, Jean, Logan, Ororo, Rogue, Kurt, Colossus, Kitty with Mags and Prof X are core. Hank and Bobby right after, as both worked for many years off the team and as guest appearances. (The professor, imo, works as well as a symbol as he does a character.) Kurt, Piotr and Kitty were even brought back from their own successful series to rejoin the main team as core cast..

You are basically looking at the 90s Blue-Gold lineup, taking out Bishop and Jubilee and putting in Nightcrawler and Shadowcat. That lineup also includes Angel who I know is not the most exciting and has not been handled well lately, but I don't think any longtime X-Men fan or writer could be honest with themself if they did not think that any X-Men team, especially one with the rest of the O5, would not feel like someone was missing if he was not there.

[Wiccan]

Something interesting I remembered related to this topic, is when the X-Men came in Marvel Future Fight. The game was affected by the ban for the first years, and the X-Men update was the most anticipated one. When asked about the characters being added, the devs said something like "We wanted to start with the most iconic X-Men", and said characters were:

- Cyclops
- Wolverine
- Storm
- Jean Grey
- Rogue
- Beast
- Magneto

[Sundown]

.... but I don't think any longtime X-Men fan or writer could be honest with themself if they did not think that any X-Men team, especially one with the rest of the O5, would not feel like someone was missing if he was not there.

I think the same can be said for the ANAD team members that stuck around, to include Kitty. (Banshee, Shiro and Thunderbird weren't there long enough.)