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  1. #31

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    Even in your Thing example, there are lots of situations where a 3x multiplier would win him the day. Wonder Man, dehydrated Namor, She Hulk, Captain Britain, Titania etc are all now characters he can defeat or at the very least has MUCH greater odds of doing so.

    So yes. 3x is not 10x or whatever constitutes an order of magnitude, yet low and behold it makes an appreciable difference to who wins or not, even in your own example.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  2. #32
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Not to mention, my comment "Does it make a difference?" was a question that invited anyone to tell me what characters they think would win against the composite but lose against the stacked one.

    But hey, I'm yet to see any cases of "Well non stacked composite couldn't beat X, Y, and Z characters, but stacked composite could.". So I'm still waiting on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    Alright, I don't think we're going to change our views at this point, so I'm going to bed. Good night.
    Good night!
    Last edited by Sol_M; 12-17-2018 at 09:01 PM.

  3. #33
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Even in your Thing example, there are lots of situations where a 3x multiplier would win him the day. Wonder Man, dehydrated Namor, She Hulk, Captain Britain, Titania etc are all now characters he can defeat or at the very least has MUCH greater odds of doing so.

    So yes. 3x is not 10x or whatever constitutes an order of magnitude, yet low and behold it makes an appreciable difference to who wins or not, even in your own example.
    The thing is, I have no idea about these character's feats, so you'd have to fill me in a bit, else we can't really debate it. I don't think they're merely 3x stronger than the thing though, else they'd be in the same ballpark as the Thing which they're clearly not being portrayed as being based on your comment.

    Or we can stick to examples we're both familiar with, like the composite that is actually in the Rumble.
    Last edited by Sol_M; 12-17-2018 at 09:01 PM.

  4. #34

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    You said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    Do you think it makes any difference if Thing was suddenly thrice as strong? Who could he beat now that he couldn't before?
    So I answered.

    For the actual character in the Rumble, there are a whole host of anime characters DCEU Superman has lost to before, on this Forum, simply because he was /slightly/ too slow or couldnt heal etc
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    The thing is, I have no idea about these character's feats, so you'd have to fill me in a bit, else we can't really debate it. I don't think they're merely 3x stronger than the thing though, else they'd be in the same ballpark as the Thing which they're clearly not being portrayed as being based on your comment.

    Or we can stick to examples we're both familiar with, like the composite that is actually in the Rumble.
    Just caught your edit.

    Yeah, they are a chunk above him typically. But literally 3x or so is enough to bridge the gap between class 80 to 90. Class 100 is where the major leaps take place. Hulk is waaaay stronger than Thing.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  6. #36
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    You said this:



    So I answered.
    I mean, I'm just asking about feats, since if we're ignoring feats, I can easily just argue that no, they're much stronger than the Thing regardless.

    Obviously I'm not going to argue that because I don't want to waste both of our time, but you get the idea.

    Alternatively, these 5-6 characters you mentioned all fall into the specific and rare category where they specifically demonstrate measurable performances vs the known factor that you are multiplying.

    But that only works for those handful of characters. What about the thousands of other characters that we don't have any form of applying a simple A=B/2 => 3A>B or whatever?

    For the actual character in the Rumble, there are a whole host of anime characters DCEU Superman has lost to before, on this Forum, simply because he was /slightly/ too slow or couldnt heal etc
    How does any of that factor into what we're discussing? oO

    We were talking about strength here, not completely separate abilities that Supes doesn't have.

    Undoubtedly, Flash's speed would help Supes out, but adding Supes and Flash's speed together doesn't make a lot of difference to just having Flash's speed.

    Edit: Ah, just ignore the first part, I'll just respond to your next post. I'm so slow when I haven't slept. ;_;
    Last edited by Sol_M; 12-17-2018 at 09:30 PM.

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Just caught your edit.

    Yeah, they are a chunk above him typically. But literally 3x or so is enough to bridge the gap between class 80 to 90. Class 100 is where the major leaps take place. Hulk is waaaay stronger than Thing.
    The thing is, I would only ever consider something class 90 if it's vastly above class 80, otherwise I'd just consider it class 80. :P

    Not that it makes a difference. What I'm basically saying is, if Thing has some feats of juggling super skyscrapers, and character X has some feats of lifting oil tankers, I'll consider them to be in the same ballpark of strength for a fight.

    If the Thing now wears a power belt that increases his strength by 3, I'm still going to consider them to be in the same ballpark of strength because there's really no reasonable way to compare lifting buildings and oil tankers unless you start getting into calculations.

    Now if Thing and this character actually fought and were exactly equal in strength, with no PIS involved, then yeah, sure, we can answer the question of who is stronger, Thing with a power belt or this character.

    Or I can anyway. Mileage clearly varies a lot on this one.
    Last edited by Sol_M; 12-17-2018 at 09:22 PM.

  8. #38
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    For the actual character in the Rumble, there are a whole host of anime characters DCEU Superman has lost to before, on this Forum, simply because he was /slightly/ too slow or couldnt heal etc
    Also, because I want to address something else about this point:

    If Supes strength and speed feats were just 3x better than it were, retroactively, let's say that's how strong he was portrayed in the movies instead of what he was actually potrayed as...

    ...I highly doubt the results of most of these fights with anime characters would change. Because there are no hard numbers here, people would still feel he's just slightly too slow or just slightly too weak.

    It's when you give him an explicit 3x powerup, that's when I'm seeing you go "Oh, now he's strong enough".




    I suppose there's an argument to be made here, keeping in mind the malleable nature of fictional feats, a 3x powerup means as much as people think it means.

  9. #39

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    Im on my phone, and navigating the damn thing is just too hard to give you the posts you deserve, so I may need to come back at this thread later when I'm sitting pretty at my computer station.

    I'll just leave with this: 3x power ups are appreciable noticeable things. If any real mma fighter were just 3x faster, never minding stronger and more durable, that person would be the Champion for as long as they chose to compete.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Im on my phone, and navigating the damn thing is just too hard to give you the posts you deserve, so I may need to come back at this thread later when I'm sitting pretty at my computer station.

    I'll just leave with this: 3x power ups are appreciable noticeable things. If any real mma fighter were just 3x faster, never minding stronger and more durable, that person would be the Champion for as long as they chose to compete.
    I absolutely agree with this. I'll refer you my original post (again), where I specifically noted that we're talking about people that can lift millions of tons. At this point, 3x strength becomes meaningless as a qualifier as far as actually debating Rumbles goes.

    Again, 3x strength difference is huge. The real problem is proving that there's a difference to begin with, without calcs.

    It works for specific cases where A armwrestles B or whatever. But beyond that? When we're trying to compare characters that have never interacted with each other and only have their own set of feats we need to use to compare? That's when saying "This dude who bench pressed a 200 floor skyscraper can beat this other dude who lifted part of an aircraft carrier if the first dude had a 3x powerup" makes no sense to me. It's...ehhh. They're both stupidly strong, what are you even comparing here?

    In order to clearly state that the first character is appreciably stronger than the second, they'd have to have done something like toss a skyscraper to the moon or lifted a portion of a city, or something that is significantly above that we can judge it to be clearly higher.

    Looking forward to when you'll be able to respond, though it may take me a while to get back lol.
    Last edited by Sol_M; 12-17-2018 at 09:56 PM.

  11. #41

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    How would this cokposite fair avainst Classic Rogue.

  12. #42

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    So, I'm still away from home, but I decided to re-read this thread after letting some time pass.

    I get it now. I am in basic agreement with Sol.

    It's obviously a power up, but like "one guy lifts a skyscraper and another guy lifts a more differenter skyscraper which looks bigger but who really can tell and this forum trucks in general equivalincies and not calculations so let's just lump them into a similar range for simplicity" is actually a pretty good point.

    Like unless it's a blatant leap up the food chain of Heavy Ass Stuff, I get that after a point it gets silly to over analyze.

    I think my brain was just... stuck I guess? Lol.
    I maintain that my Stacked Composite is tougher than your non stacked so suck it Sol! ;P
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel-Studios Rep View Post
    How would this cokposite fair avainst Classic Rogue.
    I can't imagine it goes well for her.

    Her best speed feats are like casually catching bullets right? For reactions at least? Clark and Barry make people like that seem like statues. Even her hypersonic travel speed is pretty tame compared to Clark circling the globe.

    Even if she is just as fast, Composite is going to start at range blasting away with Heat Vision, lightning and hallucinations.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    I absolutely agree with this. I'll refer you my original post (again), where I specifically noted that we're talking about people that can lift millions of tons. At this point, 3x strength becomes meaningless as a qualifier as far as actually debating Rumbles goes.

    Again, 3x strength difference is huge. The real problem is proving that there's a difference to begin with, without calcs.

    It works for specific cases where A armwrestles B or whatever. But beyond that? When we're trying to compare characters that have never interacted with each other and only have their own set of feats we need to use to compare? That's when saying "This dude who bench pressed a 200 floor skyscraper can beat this other dude who lifted part of an aircraft carrier if the first dude had a 3x powerup" makes no sense to me. It's...ehhh. They're both stupidly strong, what are you even comparing here?

    In order to clearly state that the first character is appreciably stronger than the second, they'd have to have done something like toss a skyscraper to the moon or lifted a portion of a city, or something that is significantly above that we can judge it to be clearly higher.

    Looking forward to when you'll be able to respond, though it may take me a while to get back lol.
    You should have just started your argument with this, lol. This makes much more sense.

    And no, I'm not agreeing with your because Arbiter agreed as well. Damn you Arbiter for responding faster than me.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    You should have just started your argument with this, lol. This makes much more sense.

    And no, I'm not agreeing with your because Arbiter agreed as well. Damn you Arbiter for responding faster than me.
    It's a well known fact that Sangheili have superior reaction times to puny humans. *clicks mandibles*

    Besides, this whole stacked or non stacked argument is silly. What we should REALLY be trying to figure out is how many Exploding Gas Stations they could survive.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

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