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  1. #16
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Or lets take your example:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Superman vs Billy Batson except as Captain Marvel dude is now 3x stronger and faster. Who wins?
    As I already mentioned, this only means anything for specific situations where Supes is up against someone, and that someone is shown to match them pretty much exactly. Though even then, you get things like PIS and SMvsFL or what not, but disregarding all of that, it's still a remarkably specific situation that doesn't come up often enough to make a real difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    Dude, it's very simple, character A loses to character B who is 3x stronger and faster. There is no calcs needed.
    Your statement is only true if character A and character B literally have the exact same strength.

    I'm probably doing a poor job explaining this.

  2. #17
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    It would absolutely change who he can or can't beat.
    To a fairly insignificant degree...

    I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp. Again, I'm just probably doing a terrible job explaining it, but...

    Do you think it makes any difference if Thing was suddenly thrice as strong? Who could he beat now that he couldn't before?

    Actually, screw that, just tell me who you think Supes could beat by being 3x stronger that he couldn't already beat.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    Sorry missed this...

    I'm not sure I'm making myself clear here. I'm not saying multiplying Supes strength by a factor of 3 isn't making him stronger.

    I'm saying it doesn't make much practical difference in Rumbles. Why? Because we look at feats, not calculations.

    Goku using Kaio Ken x3 means little, we look at what using it let him do. It wouldn't have mattered if it was called Kaio Ken x9000, would it, if it still had the same effect?

    Let's say DCEU Supes got a strength feat that is exactly thrice as high as his current best strength feat. Does this appreciably change the characters he can or can't beat in Rumbles?
    This is a new character. Therefore featless. By your logic, dude has no feats at all therefore Batman could beat them.

    In the absence of feats, the logical implication of stacking would be some simple "calcs" if you prefer calling them that.

    As for your last point, Slade1 says it best. Yes, it would absolutely change who they could beat.

    Billy Batson as Shazam gets a 3x multiplier. Who wins vs comic Superman now? DCEU Zod gets a 3x multiplier. Would he win his final battle with Clark in MoS now?
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  4. #19
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    This is a new character. Therefore featless. By your logic, dude has no feats at all therefore Batman could beat them.

    In the absence of feats, the logical implication of stacking would be some simple "calcs" if you prefer calling them that.

    As for your last point, Slade1 says it best. Yes, it would absolutely change who they could beat.

    Billy Batson as Shazam gets a 3x multiplier. Who wins vs comic Superman now? DCEU Zod gets a 3x multiplier. Would he win his final battle with Clark in MoS now?
    Apart from one arm wrestling match with some older version of Superman, I have no idea what strength feats current Billy has vs what feats current Supes has, so can't really comment on this.

    DCEU Zod is specifically shown to be evenly matched in strength with Supes. I fail to see how that counters my actual point.

    Again, take a random character that can throw buildings around and no-sell thermonuclear weaponry.

    Let's say you want to put this character in a Rumble. Got a pretty good idea of what kind of opponents would be a good match based on feats above right?

    Now, lets's say that this character got a 3x strength boost. Does the list of characters that would be a good match appreciably change?
    Last edited by Sol_M; 12-17-2018 at 08:38 PM.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    I'm probably doing a poor job explaining this.
    I think we get what you are saying just fine. It's not a difficult concept to grab.

    Basically you are saying "it doesnt change too much" and we are countering with "except when it does"
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    To a fairly insignificant degree...

    I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp. Again, I'm just probably doing a terrible job explaining it, but...

    Do you think it makes any difference if Thing was suddenly thrice as strong? Who could he beat now that he couldn't before?

    Actually, screw that, just tell me who you think Supes could beat by being 3x stronger that he couldn't already beat.
    Ok, let's use your Thing example. With a 3x strength he would be able to beat Hulk, Hercules, Wonderman etc, people he couldn't defeat before. Because none of those guys are 3x stronger than Thing.

  7. #22
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    I think we get what you are saying just fine. It's not a difficult concept to grab.

    Basically you are saying "it doesnt change too much" and we are countering with "except when it does"
    "except when it does" is not a counter to "it doesn't change too much". oO

    There are obviously specific and rare situations where it actually changes something by giving you a clear cut answer. In pretty much most situations though? Nope.

  8. #23
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    Ok, let's use your Thing example. With a 3x strength he would be able to beat Hulk, Hercules, Wonderman etc, people he couldn't defeat before. Because none of those guys are 3x stronger than Thing.
    I'm sorry, what?

    The class 100 characters aren't 3x stronger than the Thing? The guy who picks up a serpent big enough to wrap around the world is not 3x stronger than the guy whose best feat is using skyscrapers as weapons?

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    Ok, let's use your Thing example. With a 3x strength he would be able to beat Hulk, Hercules, Wonderman etc, people he couldn't defeat before. Because none of those guys are 3x stronger than Thing.
    Ehhh...

    Hulk and Herc are probably stronger than that. Hulk comfortably methinks. Wonderman is a good example though. Captain Britain, dry Namor as well. Barring some bfr shenanagins of course
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    Apart from one arm wrestling match with some older version of Superman, I have no idea what strength feats current Billy has vs what feats current Supes has, so can't really comment on this.

    DCEU Zod is specifically shown to be evenly matched in strength with Supes. I fail to see how that counters my actual point.

    Again, take a random character that can throw buildings around and no-sell thermonuclear weaponry.

    Let's say you want to put this character in a Rumble. Got a pretty good idea of what kind of opponents would be a good match based on feats above right?

    Now, lets's say that this character got a 3x strength boost. Does the list of characters that would be a good match appreciably change?
    I feel like we keep repeating the same arguments but yes, the list of characters would change.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Ehhh...

    Hulk and Herc are probably stronger than that. Hulk comfortably methinks. Wonderman is a good example though. Captain Britain, dry Namor as well. Barring some bfr shenanagins of course
    Alright, I might have gone overboard with that example.

  12. #27
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    I feel like we keep repeating the same arguments but yes, the list of characters would change.
    So far your argument has boiled down to "Thing is almost as strong as Hercules and the Hulk!", so...

    As a side note, I can't comment on Captain Britain or Wonderman since I'm not familiar with their feats.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    "except when it does" is not a counter to "it doesn't change too much". oO

    There are obviously specific and rare situations where it actually changes something by giving you a clear cut answer. In pretty much most situations though? Nope.
    Do you believe being 3x stronger and faster is an advantage to not being? If yes, dont you think it matters asking if said advantage is in play while determining where this made up characters limits are as per the OP?
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  14. #29
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Do you believe being 3x stronger and faster is an advantage to not being? If yes, dont you think it matters asking if said advantage is in play while determining where this made up characters limits are as per the OP?
    I feel like you misread my orignal post, if that's your argument:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    A stacked version is not going to be much better than a non-stacked version since Flash is way faster than anyone, Superman and Doomsday are way stronger than anyone, etc, so adding minuscule amounts of strength and speed don't exactly change it by an order of magnitude or anything.
    Emphasis bolded.

    No one's saying that being stronger than something doesn't mean you're stronger than something.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    I feel like you misread my orignal post, if that's your argument:


    Emphasis bolded.

    No one's saying that being stronger than something doesn't mean you're stronger than something.
    Alright, I don't think we're going to change our views at this point, so I'm going to bed. Good night.

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