How to elevate a Nobody to the A list...

[DrNewGod]

It's been a lot of fun reading the threads about our favorite lesser known DC characters, and characters we'd like to see DC push. But it makes me wonder if such characters can be pushed near the top of the DC portfolio heap (not necessarily the apex, but into the household name category)? Clearly, it can be done (see Wolverine and Aquaman), but how? So play a game with me:

Lee and Didio call you into the DC office and say "We want to expand our lines, and need one of our properties built up to a prominence and at least equal to Green Arrow or Flash. We don't want a new creation, but want to make better use of the IP we already own. We'd also prefer someone what isn't playing a significant role in a comic that's currently being published. Finally, we're only doing this with one character. We don't have time, money, or energy to do another 'DC Explosion.'

"So, give us one pitch. Who do you propose? How will you do it? What makes you think it will work?"

So you say...

[Güicho]

To A-List, that's up there with Batman, Superman Wonder Woman, lesser current Flash(tv), Green Arrow...?
A character instantly recognized by main stream.

An actual interesting new (not derivative, or just race/gender swap) character and concept that can carry a book.
With an origin interesting and unique enough that can potentially one day carry a film or TV series.
And whose concept is strong enough to build and expand a "family" around.
By that I don't mean have a baby, (LOL worst thing you can do to a character). I mean a concept so strong it can stand alone and also be expanded on secondary characters interesting just by associations, to have a family of titles.

Meanwhile also add them as a regular on the JL roster long term, and by that I mean that they are not dropped or swapped by the next creative team, or the one after that, I mean keep them on for at least over a decade or more, across all media.

Or they suddenly become a long term regular on a Batman series, and spin-off series.

Even better, do both!

And make them the circumstantial hero of the next big event.

Eventually appearance on a TV animated, live action or Film

All that will only help, ultimately the audience has to like them, which you can't control.

Good luck.
It's not happening.

Although that is what it will take.

Maybe better shoot for the B list. LOL!

[caj]

I think Keith Giffen and JM Dematteis did this perfectly in JLI with the likes of Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice, etc... Even J'onn J'onzz and Guy Gardner were elevated from where they already were.

[Lee Stone]

Unfortunately, I imagine that anyone I'd list would be met with frowns and a response of "is there anyone else?", because the two of them don't see any value in the Titans, JLI, JSA or Legion characters.

[Buried Alien]

The last "new" character to successfully receive this treatment was probably Firestorm, and it worked for him because, as Guicho suggested, he got a very long run on the Justice League during the late prime years of the Satellite League.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Lightning Rider]

It would help if we had some paramaters for who exactly isn't a big character. But The Atom, while always in the background, is certainly below Flash or GA, and I think he has a lot of potential.

I'd make a multi-part plan to gradually raise the profile and make him a character people actively seek out.

First would be a mini-series that does a bit of world-building. Who is Ray Palmer? Does he like being the Atom? Maybe he did until events led Jean to become unstable (not necessarily Identity Crisis exactly but it can be left unsaid) and contributed to their divorce. He throws himself into his work, and prefers making new technological and bio-medical discoveries to punching bad guys. Ryan Choi gives him some reprieve of that duty, along with other yet-to-be determined supporting cast members, centered his lab. The series explores his love of science, skeptical secularism, failed marriage, and how he learns to regain his lighthearted optimism and curiosity through finding beauty in the small things. It would have to be thematically different-perhaps an issue or two devoted to him spending a lot of time in a very small space made infinite. If there is a villain here, it should be revealed to be a personal one that challenges his sense of competency.

If this is successful, the an ongoing series can be developed with more traditional superheroics. It would have to be full of Waid/Johns/Morrisonesque uses of his superpower, creative things we'd never thought of. Chasing down a memory in someone's brain, studying the DNA of Superman or the shape-shifting molecules of Martian Manhunter, getting lost and temporarily unable to regrow while gradually uncovering the mystery of his small surroundings, etc. Ryan can be his backup, his support, his stand-in, almost the son he never had, with his own arcs and adventures. As a writer I can't control what other people do, but it would help to have him cameo here and there in more popular books. Not just to solve a problem that requires shrinking, but that requires scientific thinking or even just moral support.

The final part-and this is where it gets important-a line-wide event. If the actual series itself holds a steady readership, the next step to stamp the Atom into the minds of comic book readers is to make him a big player on a big stage. I once wrote an outline for an Atom vs. Darkseid story that went something like this:

[b]"I thought of a cool story, maybe 4-6 issues, involving principally The Atom (Ray Palmer) and Darkseid. It's partially inspired by Rock of Ages in which Palmer laments that Darkseid's invasion was a war between science and religion "...and religion won." I thought it was so horrible for him, for someone so rational and committed to science to be subjected to basically the rule of the devil, conquered by beings that defied logic.

So I thought of this story: in search of a missing piece of the anti-life equation, Darkseid invades Earth or maybe some other planet where Palmer and another League member (or Choi) are conducting research, and Ray has to use White Dwarf technology to defeat him. Darkseid is humbled for the first time as a (comparatively) larger Ray defeats him with something trivial like a garden hose while giving him a speech about there not being gods. Darkseid survives, and uses his abilities and will to dominate to contact Apokalips, regain at least some of his power, become a local deity in a remote area of the world, and then eventually gives Palmer a disturbing religious experience with the partial anti-life equation that shakes him to his core. He also steals some white dwarf tech as near substitute for the complete equation. Ray has to find a way to find and beat Darkseid before he can adapt the technology back on Apokalips. Ultimately, he has to shrink down into his brain and delete his memory of it, but has to face the overwhelming complexity of the mind of a god, and has to fight getting triggered and brought back to the earlier religious experience.[b]

Now if that could be changed around so he's the protagonist in a JL VS New Gods epic event, then people would remember him, so long as the character work and main beats are memorable enough. Or it could be a different event, but it must center around him.

Now if that is successful, there's room for a conversation about adapting him to other media. A Vixen-level show could work, as could one that targets a younger audience. But an animated feature, even if short or a longer one with the whole JL, maybe adapting the aforementioned event. That's when you rope in the casuals, and you have achieved Flash/GA status.

I'm not a fan of the CWverse Ray Palmer, but it's not hard to imagnine using him as a spinoff for a TV series, or someone new for DC Universe. Aside from a feature film, that's about as high profile as it gets.

Now the biggest obstacle here is Ant-Man. But that's why you go heavy on the trippy sci-fi concepts, molecular level adventures, and a more nuanced character. It wouldnt be impossible to make a more memorable and celebrated shrinking superhero.

[Lee Stone]

The last "new" character to successfully receive this treatment was probably Firestorm, and it worked for him because, as Guicho suggested, he got a very long run on the Justice League during the late prime years of the Satellite League.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

And the last seasons of Superfriends and being included in the Super Powers mini-series/toy line helped also.

[Ascended]

Well, there's a few things a character needs to enter the A-list, it seems. Perhaps they can get away with not having *some* of these categories filled in, but it seems like a character needs most of them.

This, of course, if for the "true" A-list. Characters like Ollie Queen aren't there. They're a level below that, wishing they could break that glass ceiling.

I got into this on the Captain Marvel thread once, and have seen it brought up on other threads since. Wished I had saved the original post......

Purpose/Niche They Rule: The A-list heroes are always the best there is at what they, specifically, do. If you have a cosmic problem, with sentient stars, higher dimensional beings, and space gods, you call Superman. If you have a mystery or street level problem you call Batman. Dealing with gods and myth? You call Wonder Woman. An A-list hero needs a place where they're the top of their game, even if every other character out there is better than them at everything else.

Chief Archetype: Sort of a subset of the first point, the A-list hero is most likely the best example the publisher has of a particular character archetype. Spider-Man is Marvel's ultimate "Everyman" while Logan is their ultimate "Anti-Hero." Batman is the "detective" while Hal Jordan is DC's "reckless maverick" and so on. Sometimes hard to define, it often overlaps with their purpose/niche, and sometimes the A-lister might not fit an archetype, but it definitely helps when they do and can be seen in many A-list characters.

Ultimate, Unobtainable Goal: The hero needs a goal to chase, a threat to defeat, a wall to watch. It can be as vague as "bring justice to the city" or as specific as "spread Themyscrian philosophy across the world of man" but the goal needs to be both something that fuels the hero's actions while also being something that is either impossible, or will take so long to achieve the narrative will never evolve that far.

City/Setting of Their Own: Gotham. Metropolis. Wakanda. Central City. Themyscria. Xandar. Oa. The A-list hero has a setting they call home, and if any other hero lives there too, they're a lesser property just living in a corner of the A-lister's world. Marvel kinda avoids and blurs this with everyone being based in New York, but defines it in other ways, like using specific neighborhoods or landmarks in NYC like Hell's Kitchen or the Baxter Building, or secondary places like the Negative Zone or Xavier School (that is in New York isnt it?) that're directly tied to the A-list property.

Sidekick/Legacy/Partner. The A-lister has inspired others to take up his/her heroic battle. Sidekicks like Robin or lesser partners like Falcon all count. They can be directly involved with the A-list hero on a regular basis like Kid Flash or only use the A-lister for inspiration and have less direct interaction, like Ms. Marvel or Supergirl.

Recurring and Varied Rogues Gallery. Every hero needs some good recurring villains, and each villain must reflect and bounce off the hero in specific, carefully designed ways.

Recurring and Varied Supporting Cast. The people around the hero must serve to illuminate different aspects of the hero's life and who they are; from the childhood friend who still thinks the hero is a regular person to the science expert who helps the hero in his battles. They need to stick around, they need subplots, they need to matter and show us why the hero matters, on as many levels as possible.

Love Interest. Of all the factors, this seems the easiest to ignore and still make the A-list. But it never hurts to have your own Lois Lane, Steve Trevor, Mary Jane, etc.

Marketable Visual & Logo. One of the most important aspects if you really want a character in the A-list. Not only do they need a costume/visual design that stands out from the pack and can be identified instantly, they need a logo you can slap on a t-shirt with nothing else and still have it be recognizable as belonging to the hero. They need a Bat symbol, a "S" Shield, a Hala star, a Spider, whatever. If you look, you'll be hard pressed to find a real and true A-lister who doesnt have an emblem that clearly identifies them.

Long term Investment. I dont care how amazing the character or set up is, or how close they already were, making it to the A-list will not happen overnight and will require consistent, long-term effort from the publisher.

Cross Market Saturation: I feel like this is going further than just the comics, but if you want to hit even "Flash" levels of recognition you need regular appearances in larger media like cartoons and movies and games.

I have a whole thing with Nightwing, designed to get him into the A-list but I've talked about that so much in the Bat forums half the posters here are probably tired of reading about my thoughts.

[Lee Stone]

They also need at least 20 years of cultivation so that an entire generation of readers become aware of them.
They also need to be used outside of comics prominently. Enough so that non-comics industry companies would want to license the characters for their own advertising.

[Ascended]

The last "new" character to successfully receive this treatment was probably Firestorm, and it worked for him because, as Guicho suggested, he got a very long run on the Justice League during the late prime years of the Satellite League.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Come on man. Firestorm isn't A-list. At best he was likely B-list. He's a great character (or could be, at the very least) but thats not the same thing as being A-list.

The most recent character to truly hit the A-list? Harley Quinn. I know a lot of posters dont like her, but she's made it into the A-list regardless of what we may personally feel.

[kjn]

A-list characters aren't created. They are discovered.

Look at Harley Quinn, arguably the latest A-list superhero character. She hardly fits any of the categories that Ascended listed in post #8, and was created more as a one-shot character. But at the same time I'm afraid that DC's new direction for her doesn't do her any favours for her longstanding popularity.

[DrNewGod]

To A-List, that's up there with Batman, Superman Wonder Woman, lesser current Flash(tv), Green Arrow...?
A character instantly recognized by main stream.

An actual interesting new (not derivative, or just race/gender swap) character and concept that can carry a book.
With an origin interesting and unique enough that can potentially one day carry a film or TV series.
And whose concept is strong enough to build and expand a "family" around.
By that I don't mean have a baby, (LOL worst thing you can do to a character). I mean a concept so strong it can stand alone and also be expanded on secondary characters interesting just by associations, to have a family of titles.

I'm looking at A-List as those that can reliably carry a title (even if we cancel and relaunch it from time to time). So basically, everybody from Aquaman up (including Superboy, Supergirl and Batgirl). B-list to me is those that only occasionally carry a title (Martian Manhunter, Firestorm, etc.), C-list being those that generally don't carry a title, but might carry a backup feature, and that you can usually find around as guest star or on a team (Vixen, Elongated Man), and D-list falls south of that. The Trinity, are obviously A-List, but kind of A+-list. The fact that they're not as reliable as The Trinity doesn't prevent Green Arrow or Flash as qualifying for A-List.

[DrNewGod]

I really, REALLY like this! I'm an Atom fan, but how - as a scientist - he'd react to a quasi-mythical entity like Darkseid never occurred to me. Nicely done Lightning Rider!

It would help if we had some paramaters for who exactly isn't a big character. But The Atom, while always in the background, is certainly below Flash or GA, and I think he has a lot of potential.

I'd make a multi-part plan to gradually raise the profile and make him a character people actively seek out.

First would be a mini-series that does a bit of world-building. Who is Ray Palmer? Does he like being the Atom? Maybe he did until events led Jean to become unstable (not necessarily Identity Crisis exactly but it can be left unsaid) and contributed to their divorce. He throws himself into his work, and prefers making new technological and bio-medical discoveries to punching bad guys. Ryan Choi gives him some reprieve of that duty, along with other yet-to-be determined supporting cast members, centered his lab. The series explores his love of science, skeptical secularism, failed marriage, and how he learns to regain his lighthearted optimism and curiosity through finding beauty in the small things. It would have to be thematically different-perhaps an issue or two devoted to him spending a lot of time in a very small space made infinite. If there is a villain here, it should be revealed to be a personal one that challenges his sense of competency.

If this is successful, the an ongoing series can be developed with more traditional superheroics. It would have to be full of Waid/Johns/Morrisonesque uses of his superpower, creative things we'd never thought of. Chasing down a memory in someone's brain, studying the DNA of Superman or the shape-shifting molecules of Martian Manhunter, getting lost and temporarily unable to regrow while gradually uncovering the mystery of his small surroundings, etc. Ryan can be his backup, his support, his stand-in, almost the son he never had, with his own arcs and adventures. As a writer I can't control what other people do, but it would help to have him cameo here and there in more popular books. Not just to solve a problem that requires shrinking, but that requires scientific thinking or even just moral support.

The final part-and this is where it gets important-a line-wide event. If the actual series itself holds a steady readership, the next step to stamp the Atom into the minds of comic book readers is to make him a big player on a big stage. I once wrote an outline for an Atom vs. Darkseid story that went something like this:

[b]"I thought of a cool story, maybe 4-6 issues, involving principally The Atom (Ray Palmer) and Darkseid. It's partially inspired by Rock of Ages in which Palmer laments that Darkseid's invasion was a war between science and religion "...and religion won." I thought it was so horrible for him, for someone so rational and committed to science to be subjected to basically the rule of the devil, conquered by beings that defied logic.

So I thought of this story: in search of a missing piece of the anti-life equation, Darkseid invades Earth or maybe some other planet where Palmer and another League member (or Choi) are conducting research, and Ray has to use White Dwarf technology to defeat him. Darkseid is humbled for the first time as a (comparatively) larger Ray defeats him with something trivial like a garden hose while giving him a speech about there not being gods. Darkseid survives, and uses his abilities and will to dominate to contact Apokalips, regain at least some of his power, become a local deity in a remote area of the world, and then eventually gives Palmer a disturbing religious experience with the partial anti-life equation that shakes him to his core. He also steals some white dwarf tech as near substitute for the complete equation. Ray has to find a way to find and beat Darkseid before he can adapt the technology back on Apokalips. Ultimately, he has to shrink down into his brain and delete his memory of it, but has to face the overwhelming complexity of the mind of a god, and has to fight getting triggered and brought back to the earlier religious experience.[b]

Now if that could be changed around so he's the protagonist in a JL VS New Gods epic event, then people would remember him, so long as the character work and main beats are memorable enough. Or it could be a different event, but it must center around him.

Now if that is successful, there's room for a conversation about adapting him to other media. A Vixen-level show could work, as could one that targets a younger audience. But an animated feature, even if short or a longer one with the whole JL, maybe adapting the aforementioned event. That's when you rope in the casuals, and you have achieved Flash/GA status.

I'm not a fan of the CWverse Ray Palmer, but it's not hard to imagnine using him as a spinoff for a TV series, or someone new for DC Universe. Aside from a feature film, that's about as high profile as it gets.

Now the biggest obstacle here is Ant-Man. But that's why you go heavy on the trippy sci-fi concepts, molecular level adventures, and a more nuanced character. It wouldnt be impossible to make a more memorable and celebrated shrinking superhero.

[Ascended]

A-list characters aren't created. They are discovered.

They can also be cultivated, I think. Though that's a pretty difficult thing to pull off. Seems a pretty big gamble, setting up a particular IP for A-list status without incentive from the fans.

She hardly fits any of the categories that Ascended listed in post #8.

Hmmm.......>looks at post 8<

I think we can sum up her niche and her archetype as (to quote a cartoon I watched with my daughter) "America's screwball sweetheart." She fills that "overboard gratuitous comedy violence" niche, same as Deadpool, and I can't think of anyone else in DC who does. Lobo used to back in the day, but never hit the heights of Harley. She also delves into the topic of domestic violence as well, though that's not front and center in most of her stories these days. Still, that's an area no else in DC touches, and I can't think of any who could do it better than the girl who used to get abused by the Joker.

No ultimate goal to speak of, beyond maybe just getting through her day.....

She does have the city/setting all her own. Her little slice of Cony Island is fairly well developed.

She's got the sidekick/legacy thing, with the Gang of Harleys.

The recurring villain thing is a weak point. She's had foes that lasted a while, like the mayor of NYC, but that's more "tv season" bad guy than "recurring long-term foe." Some enemies end up as part of her supporting cast, but that doesn't count. And she kills everyone else eventually. So yeah, definitely a weak point.

She's got a recurring and varied supporting cast.

She had a love interest but he died. There's Ivy, but I dunno if that would count even if DC dove into it, since Ivy isn't part of Harley's franchise.

I haven't read the book in a while (Im behind on almost everything) so I dunno if any of this has changed.

She's definitely got the marketable visual/logo, the long-term investment, and the cross media saturation. Oddly, she started from that end of things and worked her way in, while most IP's seemingly look at "cross media saturation" as almost the last step.

So she's got 8 out of 11 things I mentioned. That's not too bad, all things considered.

[HandofPrometheus]

They need good writers. That should be number one. Iconic and good stories for characters is what gets adapted in other media which is what makes them more renowned. Villains, city and that specific characters world building plays a role.