How to elevate a Nobody to the A list...

[MoneySpider]

"Make Vixen as important to the DC Universe as you make Batman. Give Vixen the same opportunities you give Batman, not just in comic books, but in ALL mediums."

[Killerbee911]

She is a special case. I dont recall ever seeing a publisher try to elevate a character like Marvel has tried with Carol. Push a character, yes, but not to the degree they've pushed her.

I dont think we'll be able to say if that push has worked or not until after the film has hit. We'll have to see what kind of merchandise she ends up moving, both while the film is out and afterwards.

Other "God pushes" in recent memory DC with Green Lantern and Marvel with Sentry. Also Marvel has given pretty solid push behind of Miles,Ms Marvel,Ghost Spider and currently Black Panther. Yeah I agree the Captain Marvel push is one of the more persistent pushes but DC Hal Jordan Green lantern push Blackest Night, Brightest night events, Green lantern animated series, Green Lantern: First Flight, Green Lantern: Emerald Knights and Green Lantern live action movie was also pretty impressive. At one point imo he had almost forced his way into the trinity imo but the Live Action movie killed all his momentum.

[Aahz]

She is a special case. I dont recall ever seeing a publisher try to elevate a character like Marvel has tried with Carol. Push a character, yes, but not to the degree they've pushed her.

I think DC tried something similar with Cyborg.

I dont think we'll be able to say if that push has worked or not until after the film has hit. We'll have to see what kind of merchandise she ends up moving, both while the film is out and afterwards.

I don't have the impression that the push in the comics worked, the movie might be able to do the job but I think the MCU has reached a level that could problay even make successful movies with original characters that haven't appeared in the comics sofar ...

[Ascended]

Other "God pushes" in recent memory DC with Green Lantern and Marvel with Sentry. Also Marvel has given pretty solid push behind of Miles,Ms Marvel,Ghost Spider and currently Black Panther. Yeah I agree the Captain Marvel push is one of the more persistent pushes but DC Hal Jordan Green lantern push Blackest Night, Brightest night events, Green lantern animated series, Green Lantern: First Flight, Green Lantern: Emerald Knights and Green Lantern live action movie was also pretty impressive. At one point imo he had almost forced his way into the trinity imo but the Live Action movie killed all his momentum.

Well, most of your examples could be viewed as the publisher just following the hype. GL didn't get a huge push, they just put Johns on the book and then ran with it when the thing blew up huge. Miles and Gwen were both huge fan favorites right off the bat and both had a nice dash of controversy for spice. Panther had the films (starting with Civil War). With Kamala.....they did push her, but her debut also created a lot of buzz too.

With Carol, it just came out of nowhere. No movie in the works (just rumors) no push from the fans. Just Marvel and KSD saying "She's Captain now, and she's gonna be big!"

I think DC tried something similar with Cyborg.

Hmm, yeah I suppose they did. Botched the job quite terribly, and gave up too early, but I suppose that was them trying the same thing.

I don't have the impression that the push in the comics worked, the movie might be able to do the job but I think the MCU has reached a level that could problay even make successful movies with original characters that haven't appeared in the comics sofar ...

I think the direct market didnt respond to Carol like Marvel had hoped, but from my understanding she does well in digital and trades. She pulled in a fanbase largely from outside the regular comics community, I guess. Which isnt to say she hasnt found success, but I doubt she hit the levels Marvel was hoping to get her to before the film hit. Still, the movie could make all the difference.

And Marvel Studios could totally get away with anything at this point. They're the biggest thing in Hollywood.

[mathew101281]

1. To me what separates A-list heroes from the others is the fact that they are an ecosystem rather then just a character. They have consistent locations, supporting casts/villains and status quo they can rely on and return to. A-list heroes can survive a bad writer or two because people are invested in the world around the character.

2. A-list character are part of the shared universe but aren’t reliant on it. If DC and Marvel, ended their shared universes today, Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman would survive, but I feel a lot other Heroes (even popular ones) would not because they are characters that take from the shared universe concept more then they put in really. You can really measure where a character is in the hierarchy , by counting how many times things associated with the character are used independent of the character in other books. Think about it, if you took everything related to Batman out of the DC universe, you’d be loosing more then just a cool character. You’d be loosing locations(Gotham, the Batcave) ,supporting characters (Robin, Batgirl) and villains a plenty ( the vast majority of DC’s street level villains are Batman villains). If Ironman, left the MCU what would you be loosing other then the hero himself?

[Kaijudo]

All hypotheticals, of course:

1. You piggy back the character onto a popular book, not a team book, but as a supporting character in a popular book. The most recent example I can think of this would be the Question in Action Comics, where Vic will be joining the supporting cast, but not in a traditional "Lois/Perry/Jimmy" fashion.

2. After the character has garnered enough interest from the readers of the popular book, you give him or her a mini-series, with creators possessing a similar vision to those working on the popular book featuring the character (if not the same creators). Introduce elements of the mini into the character's story in the main book so there'll be greater reason for somebody to follow them over. Something akin to the recent Mera mini, but perhaps not SO directly tied to events as that mini was.

3. Add the character to the line-up of a team, either one that's already been established or a new one, where the character will play a focal point and the traits he/she brought to the previous appearances can be fully used and bounced up against characters of different traits, ideally creating more interest in the character based upon its interaction with various other established characters (note: a new team should still have ties to a well-established and popular team franchise, so do a JL Dark vs. a Shadowpact, for example). At the same time, do a follow-up mini-series starring the character.

4. Make the character and/or their team focal points in a line-wide crossover event, so even more eyes are focused on the character, more people are talking about him/her, and more interest builds.

5. Use the crossover event as a launching point for a solo ongoing starring the character.

6. Coordinate with other factions and tie the launching of the character's solo book with an appearance in other media, either guest-starring on a TV show/cartoon or being featured in a video game. Put more eyes in different media on the character.

7. Finally, harness the character's popularity enough to get him/her a solo film. Staff that film with actors, directors, screenwriters, etc. who get and understand the character and can bring their best qualities to life while cutting what might not play well in other media, but without discarding the elements that made the character work so well and brought him/her to this point. By the time it's done, people who'll have never read any comics with the character will be aware of the character and talking about him/her.

Obviously there's a LONG road to go to get to where this ends at and there are many pratfalls along the way. But, perfect world scenario, I think this is a blueprint that could work.

[K. Jones]

A-List is pretty tough.

I can think of some great examples of Z-Listers getting elevated at least up to B-List. The first that came to mind was Deadshot, first with the 1970s update by Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers, but then particularly by being selected for Ostrander's Suicide Squad run. Similar lightning in a bottle was definitely captured when Gail Simone updated Catman from Z-List in Secret Six, but I think Catman is only elevated to a C-Lister, not a B-Lister - Deadshot has more recognition going for him. I think Guy Gardner is also a character who went from low tiers, through some historical ups and downs, to be at least in the B-List.

But oh man, A-List is pretty tough. Where do we focus our A-List? It's usually the Big Seven JLA, some of their closest big-time JLA allies, and a lot of their various archnemeses and sidekicks, right? Your Superman, Supergirl, Lois Lane and Luthor. Your Batman, various Robins, Joker and such. Your Hal Jordan, probably quantifiably John Stewart and Kyle, as well as perhaps Sinestro. Flash and his Rogues, Grodd. Wonder Woman, Cheetah. So on, so forth. And that's qualitative, as even OG member J'onn J'onzz is probably somehow still B-List (though he's been given some serious love, respect and good treatment in recent years).

From nobody to THAT level, I can't even think of anyone.

I'd say good runs on characters that redefine them, bring them up to date, can kind of make them indispensable fixtures in the A-List Mainstream, but I'm having a hard time thinking of serious candidates. Certainly between Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder, Z-List one-shot story demon Barbatos was elevated to an A-List CRISIS-level threat, but he's so specific to a set of stories where he's powerful, but doesn't have much "powerful usage" outside of those particular stories, which actually limits his A-List exposure rates.

I'm kind of thinking perhaps some low-tier character that never really struck a chord, but then became pretty integral to one of the TV shows is the way to gauge this, as a lot of times after they get some major TV show exposure they migrate back to the comics via synergy and achieve some level of indispensable tone in the books, too. But those are pretty often supporting roles - The Danvers', or something along those lines. We're not exactly getting a mini-series featuring Rip Hunter or White Canary or Joe West. We haven't seen the comics bring back Damian Dahrk. We did see the comics shift to change "Arthur Knight" into "Malcolm Merlyn" pretty painlessly, but he's still not a huge player, nowhere near A-List.

Hmm.

Bears some thought. I do suppose that GENERAL ZOD after Superman: The Movie went from just one random, neat, but not exactly A-List Superman villain, to being A-List. That too took a while and had some weird ups and downs, but he sticks out for me right now - one film portrayal completely redefined a Superman foe from "one of a number, a bit recognizable but not exactly an archnemesis" to being like ... EPIC.

Oh in that regard I suppose something similar happened with MISTER FREEZE.

[mathew101281]

1. To me what separates A-list heroes from the others is the fact that they are an ecosystem rather then just a character. They have consistent locations, supporting casts/villains and status quo they can rely on and return to. A-list heroes can survive a bad writer or two because people are invested in the world around the character.

2. A-list character are part of the shared universe but aren’t reliant on it. If DC and Marvel, ended their shared universes today, Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman would survive, but I feel a lot other Heroes (even popular ones) would not because they are characters that take from the shared universe concept more then they put in really. You can really measure where a character is in the hierarchy , by counting how many times things associated with the character are used independent of the character in other books. Think about it, if you took everything related to Batman out of the DC universe, you’d be loosing more then just a cool character. You’d be loosing locations(Gotham, the Batcave) ,supporting characters (Robin, Batgirl) and villains a plenty ( the vast majority of DC’s street level villains are Batman villains). If Ironman, left the MCU what would you be loosing other then the hero himself?

3. Also having a character that appeals to multiple demographics, and can be translated to multiple platforms without being radically changed helps. Punisher is an interesting character, but his nature limits his demographic in a lot of ways. Spiderman on the other hand can be targeted to pretty much anyone.

4. Don't link a character to closely to pop culture, or time specific social issues. These thinks change to constantly to make a consistent platform for your character. Pretty much if you have to keep going back and radically changing your characters origin story that's not a good thing. Superman, Batman, and Spiderman have simple origin stories that really only need minor tweaks to stay relevant. On the other end of the spectrum you have Dazzler and Vibe.

[DrNewGod]

1. To me what separates A-list heroes from the others is the fact that they are an ecosystem rather then just a character. They have consistent locations, supporting casts/villains and status quo they can rely on and return to. A-list heroes can survive a bad writer or two because people are invested in the world around the character.

2. A-list character are part of the shared universe but aren’t reliant on it. If DC and Marvel, ended their shared universes today, Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman would survive, but I feel a lot other Heroes (even popular ones) would not because they are characters that take from the shared universe concept more then they put in really. You can really measure where a character is in the hierarchy , by counting how many times things associated with the character are used independent of the character in other books. Think about it, if you took everything related to Batman out of the DC universe, you’d be loosing more then just a cool character. You’d be loosing locations(Gotham, the Batcave) ,supporting characters (Robin, Batgirl) and villains a plenty ( the vast majority of DC’s street level villains are Batman villains). If Ironman, left the MCU what would you be loosing other then the hero himself?

I really like your criteria. Very well thought out.

I part company on your example. Pulling Iron Man out of Marvel would rip a hole in the guts of The Avengers (and to a lesser known extent, SHIELD, and innumerable Super Tech Company Analogies). I can agree with what you're saying if we use Aquaman (over his whole history, does he REALLY impact the DCU?) or Dr. Strange (yeah, he's the go-to Magic Guy and been everywhere [and don't get me wrong, I LUVS him], but does anything in the MU actually depend on him?).

[mathew101281]

I really like your criteria. Very well thought out.

I part company on your example. Pulling Iron Man out of Marvel would rip a hole in the guts of The Avengers (and to a lesser known extent, SHIELD, and innumerable Super Tech Company Analogies). I can agree with what you're saying if we use Aquaman (over his whole history, does he REALLY impact the DCU?) or Dr. Strange (yeah, he's the go-to Magic Guy and been everywhere [and don't get me wrong, I LUVS him], but does anything in the MU actually depend on him?).

Historically Ironman have been in that category, but your right in recent years Marvel has made a conscious effort to push the character. We'll see how much the characters status takes a dip once Robert Downey Jr stops playing him.

[kjn]

I think mathew101281 is onto something here when he talks about demographics. The best way to elevate a character is not if they fill some narrative niche that was unfilled earlier, but if they reach a demographic that was previously underserved or didn't connect with the existing characters. Batwoman and Poison Ivy draw a lot of their success from the LGBT community, and a lot of Marvel's success I believe came from their ability to reach the African-american communities.

But it's not enough to simply introduce a character who belongs to a specific demographic. Unless a lot of first-hand experience is infused into the character it too easily devolves into tokenism, or gets stereotypes built into their core. Ms Marvel is arguably the most recent example of successfully and purposefully trying such a strategy, and it included recruiting an excellent writer who herself was a Moslem and knew about the culture collisions firsthand.

[Aahz]

Hmm, yeah I suppose they did. Botched the job quite terribly, and gave up too early, but I suppose that was them trying the same thing.

Did they really gave up?

I think the direct market didnt respond to Carol like Marvel had hoped, but from my understanding she does well in digital and trades. She pulled in a fanbase largely from outside the regular comics community, I guess. Which isnt to say she hasnt found success, but I doubt she hit the levels Marvel was hoping to get her to before the film hit.

At least in the comixology charts she is iirc usually not in a particularly high spot, and Digital sales are (if the numbers here are correct) a fifth of the sales on the direct market.
And her longest running series as Captain Marvel lasted apparently for only 17 issues, while as Ms. Marvel she had 50 issue series from 2006 to 2010, so it doesn't really seem like she got more successful due to this change than she already was.

[Aahz]

3. Also having a character that appeals to multiple demographics, and can be translated to multiple platforms without being radically changed helps. Punisher is an interesting character, but his nature limits his demographic in a lot of ways. Spiderman on the other hand can be targeted to pretty much anyone.

The the Problem with Punisher is that if you translate him into life action, what you get is usually a pretty generic R-rated Action movie, and in this genre you have a lot more competition than marvel has wit it's regular superhero movies.

[Ascended]

Did they really gave up?

They seem to have. They gave the book to Wolfman, and then seem to have quietly let it die and slid it under the rug. Now Vic is only showing up in the League book (JLO and JL still, I think? Im behind). No word that I've heard on a relaunch, nor any bigger roles anywhere.

Sounds to me like DC gave up on their push. I hope Im wrong though, Im a big fan of Vic. Or rather, what Vic could (and should!) be.

At least in the comixology charts she is iirc usually not in a particularly high spot, and Digital sales are (if the numbers here are correct) a fifth of the sales on the direct market.
And her longest running series as Captain Marvel lasted apparently for only 17 issues, while as Ms. Marvel she had 50 issue series from 2006 to 2010, so it doesn't really seem like she got more successful due to this change than she already was.

I hear digital sales average about 10%, myself. With some doing far better (or worse) than that.

But I wouldnt be surprised if Carol's book hasn't been doing well online these days. I myself dropped the title long ago because the quality wasn't there. I doubt Im the only one. But the new series? Im looking forward to that and hoping it can make Carol worth reading again. And when I return, Im sure others will to. >shrug<

[skyvolt2000]

But it's not enough to simply introduce a character who belongs to a specific demographic. Unless a lot of first-hand experience is infused into the character it too easily devolves into tokenism, or gets stereotypes built into their core. Ms Marvel is arguably the most recent example of successfully and purposefully trying such a strategy, and it included recruiting an excellent writer who herself was a Moslem and knew about the culture collisions firsthand.

Ms Marvel was NOT suppose to last beyond 7 issues-G Willow Wilson said that herself. When Wilson leaves that book-it will be after 60 issues. I think the fact they expected the book ti fail-they did EVERYTHING they could to do the best job that they could and be happy with it. Instead it went wild and we are better for it.

There are very few books I read the day I buy the book or trade-Static, Tim Drake & Ms Marvel.

I think the direct market didnt respond to Carol like Marvel had hoped, but from my understanding she does well in digital and trades.

I think the direct market just sees another white blond female in a market where Supergirl has that on LOCK. Not to mention WW, Harley, Catwoman & Ivy. And soon Mera.
However outside of the direct market-she is widely accepted. To the point most stores I know recommend HER before any other female (who is not a person of color).

Look on Amazon Kindle
Captain Marvel Vol. 1: Higher, Further, Faster, More
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Comics, Manga & Graphic Novels > Graphic Novels > Superheroes
#1 in Books > Comics & Graphic Novels > Graphic Novels > Superheroes
#2 in Books > Comics & Graphic Novels > Publishers > Marvel

She was like this BEFORE we heard of that movie.
Oh that top 50 on Kindle does not feature DC-Batman shows up at 56. Miles, Spider Gwen (a LOT of her), Black Panther, Jane Foster, Hulk & Ms Marvel (last week Moon Girl & Riri were there) beat Batman.

The best way to elevate a character is not if they fill some narrative niche that was unfilled earlier, but if they reach a demographic that was previously underserved or didn't connect with the existing characters. Batwoman and Poison Ivy draw a lot of their success from the LGBT community, and a lot of Marvel's success I believe came from their ability to reach the African-american communities.

I would also add having the right writers. Miles Morales's novel is written by Jason Reynolds. A lot of folks I know HAD no idea who Miles was but knew who Reynolds was and bought the book. It became a New York Times seller week ONE.

Did they really gave up?

Walker, Sempter, Kevin Grevioux & Marv Wolfman are not chumps off the street. They call WRITE. They just need an EDITOR who didn't settle for man vs machine stories.

I would say DC was never behind Cyborg in the first place. They thought tossing him in Justice League was enough. That was suppose to be enough to make him A list.
He was the only leaguer without a book until every other black male lead book was MIA at Marvel. When they came back, Cyborg fell below MOON GIRL numbers when Wolfman wrote him.
Then Rebirth came and Cyborg was below 20K at issue 6.

You want to know how bad is it. On Amazon every black led Marvel book (yes even those failed Black Panther spinoffs & Nighthawk), Duke Thomas, MICHAEL CRAY, Valiant's Shadowman, Kwanza Osajyefo's Black books & Lion Forge's books ALL have higher sales than all of Cyborgs trades.

Yet Cyborg is on WHAT tv show???? Not to mention what movie? He's in EVERYBODY'S face DAILY. And no one can do anything with him??? No one?

How are folks in low selling comics and barely known bypassing Cyborg? Miles starred the same year as Cyborg in JL. Miles has a movie that folks are MAKING UP AWARDS to give. There is an OSCAR push for that film.

Meanwhile Cyborg is an after thought. They didn't give up-they never gave a BLEEP.