Would you say that Marvel has any complex villains?

[Castiel]

I originally thought about posting this in Spiderman but then felt Punisher would be a more intersting character to discuss this with what do you think Frank Castle would do if he encountered a villain that originally seemed like a psychopath but was then revealed to arguably a victim of his seemingly innocent target? I then considered expanding the subject into what just about any marvel heroes reaction would be. I think it would be interesting to see a Mr. Freeze type villain in Marvel as a nice break away from the usual villains like Dr. Doom, Kingpin, and Red Skull.

I can't help but wonder how a lot heroes would interact with someone like that especially if he/she was only trying to save someone they loved and or get well deserved pay back. This is pretty much an example of what I'm talking about.

[Michael Watkins]

Punisher is a complex villain

[Snoop Dogg]

Punisher is a complex villain

Punisher is a simple villain that unlike other characters cannot be complex because it would limit his ability to do what he does, and he has to keep doing it because he has books to sell.

[Snoop Dogg]

And while most Marvel villains are really complex with the simpler ones like Red Skull, Bullseye, Carnage, Sinister, etc. being the exception, I can't think of a Mister Freeze type off the top of my head because most of the villains who have that kind of goal only have it for one story or something, like Doom with his mother.

However, yesterday I saw Into the Spider-Verse where spoilers:

Kingpin has a Freeze-type motivation

end of spoilers

[DragonsChi]

Magneto would be the quintessential complex villain.

Depending on who's side you are on and how you look at it Namor would be the creator of the complex villain/anti-hero.

[Bor]

Magneto would be the quintessential complex villain.

Depending on who's side you are on and how you look at it Namor would be the creator of the complex villain/anti-hero.

Agreed.

I dont really agree with the initial post at all, I feel like Marvel has plenty of these types of villians already to various degrees.
Sure it might be different depending on who wrote them, but the same applies to Mr. Freeze. His new 52 backstory was not nearly as complex as much as just being creepy.

[MichaelC]

Marvel's villains are, on average, less complex than DCs, because Marvel stories are about the heroes flaws. The story is about Peter Parker's struggle with his desire to make money and be famous and subtler versions of the same flaws he displayed back when he first got his powers. The story is about Tony Stark's mad scientist hubris and his addictive personality. With so much of the story about the hero's flaws, there often isn't much room for the villain to do much beside provide a few action scenes to liven up what is otherwise the character-study of a flawed protagonist.

Generally, DC heroes are extremely pure and iconic. So often the story will be a character-study of a villain. The story will be about how Black Mask's and Penguin's parents ruined them with abuse. The story will be about Ra's Al Ghul's slow deterioration into cynicism and misanthropy and fanaticism. The story will be about Bane being raised in a prison and what that did to him. The story will be about how Two-Face came to have two personalities. The story will be about Mr Freeze's desperate attempts to save his wife. A DC story is far more likely to be about the villain, with the hero as an utterly pure force stops the villain from actually winning once the character-study is done.

In short, both Marvel and DC use characters as Macguffins to fool us into thinking we are watching an action-story when we are really watching a character study. The difference is Marvel uses villains as the Rosebud to get us to read about their heroes. DC uses heroes as the Rosebud to get us to read their character-studies of villains.

Now before someone comes in and points to some exception from both companies, I'll say that, yes, there are a fair number of exceptions from both companies. But the tendency is nonetheless quite strong.

[JKtheMac]

I can't help but wonder how a lot heroes would interact with someone like that especially if he/she was only trying to save someone they loved and or get well deserved pay back. This is pretty much an example of what I'm talking about.

Lets get back to the key part of the question. This is hardly an unknown story in Marvel. Most recently the All-New Wolverine arc about the Orphans of X asked the question. You can only really ask this question of character's that battle with the idea of justice or their own tendencies to be violent. It has been asked though.

Consider for a moment that asking it of Spider-Man would be pointless. It wouldn't illuminate his character.

Therefore the question is flawed because it isn't possible to claim this is kind of story is unique to DC.

I am sure somebody that is a fan of Frank Castle could point to a villain with this approximate back story.

[Snoop Dogg]

Baron Zemo is the best and most complex villain and and and he was gonna be antihero and and and damn it, Brubaker why did you ruin everything and and and thank you Spencer for fixing everything

[JKtheMac]

My mind immediately goes to Stained Glass Scarlet because we are in a noir setting here.

A character who becomes a vigilante after feeling forced to kill her own son. That is a classic noir concept, the corruption of crime informing the traditionally pure relationship of mother and son. She plays perfectly as a Moon Knight foil because she emphasised the idea that Moon Knight was inhabiting a morally ambiguous world.

This of course was a time when Moon Knight was closely related to The Spirit in concept and Doug Moench was going full bore noir. Moon knight holding back the darkness of the world as a reflection of holding back the darkness in himself.

[Michael Watkins]

Baron Zemo is the best and most complex villain and and and he was gonna be antihero and and and damn it, Brubaker why did you ruin everything and and and thank you Spencer for fixing everything

he's Chaotically Neutral now, iirc.