Barbara Gordon - as Batgirl or as Oracle?

[Badou]

Given that she is "headlining" one of said shows as Oracle, I'm sure that's a viable argument. I'd also point out the Birds of Prey basically started out as Duo book (similar to early Detective Comics and Batman for the Dynamic Duo.

I think a lot of the dislike of the Oracle back to Batgirl thing was less about that itseld and more the fact that they dropped several popular supporting characters at the same time most notably Cass Cain (one of the few prominent WOC in comics) and Steph who had a very popular solo series cancelled which was doing basically the same plot they ended up doing at 'Burnside' so it felt like a possibly racist, somewhat ableist and certainly regressive step.

No, she is headlining two animated shows as Batgirl. DC Super Hero Girls based around their merch line, and the Lauren Faust Superhero Girls show. Batgirl is front and center in both of them.

Cass was long gone from being involved in the Batman books before the New 52 happened. She was sidelined once Steph was the new Batgirl, so blame Steph for the minority character being sidelined if you want, but I said in a previous post that if you are upset about Steph and Cass not being Batigrl anymore then that is understandable but also a completely different argument.

Alfred Pennyworth would like to say 'hi'.

Supporting character since 1942 and still a fan favourite in the role.

So Barbara should strive to be like Alfred instead of her own superhero? Alfred tends to get written like crap or abused in his supporting role in Batman. He isn't treated very well despite being a fan favorite.

She was the co-lead for Birds of Prey, until the team was made too large.

And yes, Oracle goes against the grain in how superheroes are supposed to look and act. I view that as a good thing. Keeps writers and editors on their toes, and helps them improve and forces them to think outside the box.

As for being chained to the chair, they could have "fixed" Babs and still kept her in her role as Oracle. It would have caused other meta-narrative issues, but it could have been done. But more than that, I'm reminded of a friend of mine who says that if she can choose between hobbling around on crutches or zipping around in a wheelchair, she chooses the wheelchair every day of the week.

Now, if DC had decided to give her her legs back and keep her in her role as Oracle, I'd probably been fine with it, though it would have brought with it a new set of meta-narrative issues, just a different set than keeping her in the wheelchair or making her back to Batgirl.

If they were going to make Barbara a hero again then there is nothing the Oracle identity offers that the Batgirl identity doesn't offer more of. It is a bigger identity and a more marquee name. The same reason people want Steph or Cass back as Batgirl is the reason why some fans want Babs as Batgirl. It is an identity that offers its own solo series and many more opportunities for exposure.

I would claim that there is no question that Babs and the Batgirls got off worse, especially once Simone left the title. In the original series, she had a ton of experience, as Batgirl and as Barbara Gordon. ALL of that was removed, except TKJ. A comparison with Dick Grayson and the Robins is instructive.

Steph and Cass were removed as entirely. Babs had her experience as Oracle erased, and had to go through trauma recovery after TKJ again (I don't blame Simone for that choice, the alternative was worse). Later on even the experiences that Simone had given her were erased in the Burnside Batgirl. That is exactly what I mean by infantilising her. To her credit, Mairghread Scott writes a better Babsgirl.

All the Robins (except Steph) got to stay as former Robins, their experience as such basically intact. Dick Grayson is demoted from acting Batman, but keeps his role own-created role as Nightwing.

Basically, the Robins (except Steph) got through New 52 reasonably intact. The Batgirls didn't.

In a way, I believe that part of why Babs was so ill-treated not only has to do with misogyny (though it certainly does play a part) but also in that Babs as Oracle was an implied critique of the DC practices towards their female characters and of the underlying dogma that Batman's ethics and morals are not to be meaningfully critiqued. And Babs was the living embodiment of that critique.

Again, being upset about Cass and Steph because of Barbara as Batgirl again is a completely different argument and something you can't argue against, since it is a basic liking one character more than the other, but only on the Barbara side there is no way she got worse off than someone like Dick. Dick got demoted as Batman and his experience as Batman was made redundant, he lost all of his Titans history, all his history with and in the JL was made redundant or erased, and the only DCU characters he knew or could interact with were Damian a bit and Barbara. Going from were he was to just Nightwing was a massive step back. First time in decades he only appeared in one book. Across all fronts it was a step back for the character.

Barbara went from her role as Oracle to having her first ever solo book which is a step up in terms of awareness. So while you might not have liked the change it was a step up in terms of opportunity and exposure. So she went from a supporting character to a hero leading her own title for the first time in her character's history.

[Frontier]

Cass was long gone from being involved in the Batman books before the New 52 happened. She was sidelined once Steph was the new Batgirl, so blame Steph for the minority character being sidelined if you want, but I said in a previous post that if you are upset about Steph and Cass not being Batigrl anymore then that is understandable but also a completely different argument.

And both girls were written out when the reboot made Babs Batgirl again.

So Barbara should strive to be like Alfred instead of her own superhero? Alfred tends to get written like crap or abused in his supporting role in Batman. He isn't treated very well despite being a fan favorite.

Isn't Snyder the only writer who seems to write Alfred in a bad way, insofar as terrible things happening to him?

But personally I think Oracle in practice is very different from Alfred.

Again, being upset about Cass and Steph because of Barbara as Batgirl again is a completely different argument and something you can't argue against, since it is a basic liking one character more than the other, but only on the Barbara side there is no way she got worse off than someone like Dick. Dick got demoted as Batman and his experience as Batman was made redundant, he lost all of his Titans history, all his history with and in the JL was made redundant or erased, and the only DCU characters he knew or could interact with were Damian a bit and Barbara. Going from were he was to just Nightwing was a massive step back. First time in decades he only appeared in one book. Across all fronts it was a step back for the character.

Barbara went from her role as Oracle to having her first ever solo book which is a step up in terms of awareness. So while you might not have liked the change it was a step up in terms of opportunity and exposure. So she went from a supporting character to a hero leading her own title for the first time in her character's history.

When you look at all the development, accomplishment, and stature she had as Oracle...then it still seems like a step back when you look at how she's portrayed as Batgirl.

[Badou]

And both girls were written out when the reboot made Babs Batgirl again.

But Cass was long gone before the New 52. She had like 1 appearance as Black Bat in Morrison's run and the Gates of Gotham mini.

Isn't Snyder the only writer who seems to write Alfred in a bad way, insofar as terrible things happening to him?

Tomasi just stabbed Alfred in his Detectives run.

When you look at all the development, accomplishment, and stature she had as Oracle...then it still seems like a step back when you look at how she's portrayed as Batgirl.

I don't think so given where Oracle was before the New 52. BoP was long past its prime and I think the Oracle character was very stagnant. Like I don't remember her doing anything memorable leading up to the reboot outside of getting abused by her brother in Black Mirror, which was a story centered around Dick and Jim Gordon with with Babs falling into that typical support role instead of having her own story.

But like I said I think Dick was effected far worse in terms of his development, accomplishments and stature when he got pushed back down to Nightwing in the New 52.

Edit: And with Dick they couldn't even excuse it as him being deaged so much since they didn't really depict it well. So he went from his huge position he was in to back as Nightwing in a very awkward transition. With Babs at least it was all explainable with how she was deaged a decade in a very obvious way to explain her changes.

[Frontier]

But Cass was long gone before the New 52. She had like 1 appearance as Black Bat in Morrison's run and the Gates of Gotham mini.

So wasn't "long gone." It was more like she had just come back and then she was erased again by the reboot.

Tomasi just stabbed Alfred in his Detectives run.

But that doesn't really signify a trend of Alfred being treated like #@%&.

I don't think so given where Oracle was before the New 52. BoP was long past its prime and I think the Oracle character was very stagnant. Like I don't remember her doing anything memorable leading up to the reboot outside of getting abused by her brother in Black Mirror, which was a story centered around Dick and Jim Gordon with with Babs falling into that typical support role instead of having her own story.

She had her own spotlight issue in Batman Inc. and was still a major part of Steph's Batgirl run, and in a more positive and strong way, almost to the point of co-lead status, then in the case of Black Mirror.

Has anything really memorable happened to her as Batgirl aside from the Burnside revamp?

But like I said I think Dick was effected far worse in terms of his development, accomplishments and stature when he got pushed back down to Nightwing in the New 52.

And I still believe it was the same for Babs when she became Batgirl again.

[Timothy Hunter]

It's too late to revert Barbara to the moniker of Oracle. It's been 8 or so years since the New Fifty Two commenced. And it's WAY too late to put her back in a wheelchair. There is no way to pull this status quo shift off without it looking jarring as hell.

I would have her change her identity to something else (maybe Flamebird) cancel her solo title and put her on the Justice League or the Titans (when they return). Also play up the legacy aspect of the character. Make her appear older in current continuity than she does now, and make her be a mentor to Cassandra and Stephanie.

[Badou]

So wasn't "long gone." It was more like she had just come back and then she was erased again by the reboot.

She was sidelined as a member of the Batman family when she lost the Batgirl role to Steph. The entire Batman family had moved on without her and she was completely irrelevant in all of the big Bruce story going on at the time. So I don't think the character was really "back" when she had like 2 appearances in the least few years before the reboot. And one of those appearances, like Gates of Gotham, was when they were already planning the New 52.

But that doesn't really signify a trend of Alfred being treated like #@%&.

It does speak to how he gets abused. I think King had Alfred get beaten up a few times as well in his run?

She had her own spotlight issue in Batman Inc. and was still a major part of Steph's Batgirl run, and in a more positive and strong way, almost to the point of co-lead status, then in the case of Black Mirror.

Has anything really memorable happened to her as Batgirl aside from the Burnside revamp?

I don't think that one issue of Inc was all that good. It is a good example of writers having to find ways to get around the chair situation in order to write her as a hero.

Simone's Batgirl run made Babs the highest selling female comic character for a time. That is very memorable back during the Joker stuff. For a character that never had an ongoing solo before that is a big accomplishment. I think her team ups with Supergirl were very fun and memorable too.

And I still believe it was the same for Babs when she became Batgirl again.

That is fine if you don't like where she is now compared to where she was, but what I don't think you can argue against is that in terms of exposure and opportunity Barbara is in as good of a place as she has ever been. So in many ways it was a step up for the character.

[Frontier]

She was sidelined as a member of the Batman family when she lost the Batgirl role to Steph. The entire Batman family had moved on without her and she was completely irrelevant in all of the big Bruce story going on at the time. So I don't think the character was really "back" when she had like 2 appearances in the least few years before the reboot. And one of those appearances, like Gates of Gotham, was when they were already planning the New 52.

It seemed like they were slowly trying to re-integrate her back into the Batfamily, so I would think that would've continued had the reboot not happened.

It does speak to how he gets abused. I think King had Alfred get beaten up a few times as well in his run?

But I think that's been relatively recent compared to something that's been consistent with his run.

I don't think that one issue of Inc was all that good. It is a good example of writers having to find ways to get around the chair situation in order to write her as a hero.

I thought it was pretty neat, but to each their own.

Simone's Batgirl run made Babs the highest selling female comic character for a time. That is very memorable back during the Joker stuff. For a character that never had an ongoing solo before that is a big accomplishment. I think her team ups with Supergirl were very fun and memorable too.

That is impressive but it hasn't been sustained at all since Simone left, especially once Larson took over for Rebirth.

Babs has had two team-ups with Supergirl, so as much as I enjoyed those I'd say they were pretty much blips on her Batgirl tenure at the moment.

That is fine if you don't like where she is now compared to where she was, but what I don't think you can argue against is that in terms of exposure and opportunity Barbara is in as good of a place as she has ever been. So in many ways it was a step up for the character.

I definitely think she's well-exposed, but at the moment I don't think it's anymore then when she was Oracle.

[OBrianTallent]

While I much preferred Barbara as Oracle as she was a much more diverse character than the usual super hero in that she was physically impaired, she used her intelligence not just for her benefit but to benefit a much larger community and she was still shown as valued a "person" as Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman or any other hero. Moving her back to Batgirl reset the bar for the character not in a beneficial manner but it's what it is none the less.
For me, if we are going to keep Barbara as Batgirl (and honestly at this point it might as well stay) I prefer her to be a little less grim and dark than the rest of the clan. Nightwing should be her personality contemporary (but we all know how that book is going right now). Bennett has done a good job recapturing some of her personality and if we can't get Simone, she's a great replacement. I'm not crazy about the costume change, specifically the mask and this month's issue highlights that. There was a good deal of time spent showing the villain beating her in the face and having multiple bruises the next day. She needs something that can protect at least the upper portion of her face more than just a domino mask.

[Shamrock Holmes]

But Cass was long gone before the New 52. She had like 1 appearance as Black Bat in Morrison's run and the Gates of Gotham mini.



Tomasi just stabbed Alfred in his Detectives run.



I don't think so given where Oracle was before the New 52. BoP was long past its prime and I think the Oracle character was very stagnant. Like I don't remember her doing anything memorable leading up to the reboot outside of getting abused by her brother in Black Mirror, which was a story centered around Dick and Jim Gordon with with Babs falling into that typical support role instead of having her own story.

But like I said I think Dick was effected far worse in terms of his development, accomplishments and stature when he got pushed back down to Nightwing in the New 52.

Edit: And with Dick they couldn't even excuse it as him being deaged so much since they didn't really depict it well. So he went from his huge position he was in to back as Nightwing in a very awkward transition. With Babs at least it was all explainable with how she was deaged a decade in a very obvious way to explain her changes.

Actually, she was involved in most of the major events of the Noughties (coordinating the heroes hunt for Trickster and Piper after their murder of Bart Allen, and the defence of Metropolis during Final Crisis proper, suppporting Dick during "Battle for the Cowl") although I admit that her involvement in the later "Blackest Night" and "BW: The Road Home" arcs were more limited.

As Oracle she was the premier information broker and go-to co-ordinator for the entire superhero community, basically the "SecDef of Superheroes", but as Batgirl she drops down to B to C-list especially during the early Nu52 where they won't even use her with her traditional allies and peers (BoP and Bat Fam).

[Konja7]

It's too late to revert Barbara to the moniker of Oracle. It's been 8 or so years since the New Fifty Two commenced. And it's WAY too late to put her back in a wheelchair. There is no way to pull this status quo shift off without it looking jarring as hell.

I would have her change her identity to something else (maybe Flamebird) cancel her solo title and put her on the Justice League or the Titans (when they return). Also play up the legacy aspect of the character. Make her appear older in current continuity than she does now, and make her be a mentor to Cassandra and Stephanie.

I don't think Barbara should be Oracle again (especially if this include the wheelchair), since this would limit the character. Although I don't like her as Batgirl, since they don't allow Barbara to grow.

I know Kate fans will hate me, but I would like Batwoman identity for Barbara. I mean DC will probably allow Barbara be mature and experiemced in this identity.

Also, it would call a lot of attention a Batgirl becoming Batwoman.

[kjn]

Yeah, I think one lesson that DC should take from this is that regressing a character who has managed to evolve into a new role is a really bad idea. The initial decision upset a lot of people, for good reason, and now Babs is stuck in a role where she can't evolve. Dick can still evolve as Nightwing and even sub for Batman in some arcs; Batgirl can't.

And taking over as Batwoman would still not be a good solution. For one, it'd be taking over an established character's role that they had built, for another she'd still be stuck in not only a legacy identity, but a hand-me-down-identity as well. And this is for one of DC's most enduring characters. In fact, I'd argue that she had the most meaningful character arc out of any of DC's superheroes, perhaps among all superheroes.