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  1. #31
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Babs doesn’t need to be paralyzed to be Oracle.
    That's a good point I think many people often forget.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #32

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    I liked her as Batgirl, and, while I don't mind her as Oracle, I'm a bit sad to see her in a wheel chair.

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Babs doesn’t need to be paralyzed to be Oracle.
    While true from one perspective, it's trickier in practice, in part due to DC's own actions. By magically healing Babs and then immediately putting her into the costume as Batgirl again they created a mental association and assumption that Babs is paralysed as Oracle and hale as Batgirl.

    So that's one problem. But there are also some deeper issues that further muddy the waters. The first is that Oracle became hugely important to many readers because she was in a wheelchair but still was a superhero. Oracle was a superhero who was disabled, but wasn't defined by their disability, nor had their superheroism tied to their disability (like Daredevil). That's why it became such an issue when DC magically healed her, just as it did with the implication that DC kills Poison Ivy in Heroes in Crisis. Oracle was important to a lot of people.

    A second is that current-day Babs as Batgirl tends to be written along one of two paths. The first is the "Burnside Babs" with its emphasis on Batgirl. A regression of Babs that is profoundly untrue to the history and character of Babs: a woman who had finished school, had started a career, became a congresswoman, and so on, and that's even before she became Oracle. The second is that Babs gets defined as a trauma victim. Being true to Babs past history and not making its trauma define her is a really tricky balance to strike, and my impression is that it's only Gail Simone and Mairghread Scott who has managed to do so, and even Simone failed at times.

    The wheelchair became the prop that helped to move Babs from the category of trauma victim to the one of trauma survivor. Writers can trust in the wheelchair to remind readers of her past, and thus does not need to bring it up unless needed by the plot, and when they do bring it up the emphasis becomes more that Babs have moved on, even if the people around her might not.

    Somewhat paradoxically, Babs the person can be healed, but Babs the comic book character needs the wheelchair in order to not be defined by her past injury and trauma.

    The fact that Batgirl is just another Bat character while Oracle filled a unique niche and was her own character in every way has already been covered earlier.

    (BTW, this topic really needed a poll.)

  4. #34
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Oracle, full-stop. Regressing her back into Batgirl robbed the DCU of one of its most unique, capable characters and gutted the Birds of Prey dynamic which breathed new life into Black Canary and Huntress.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    While true from one perspective, it's trickier in practice, in part due to DC's own actions. By magically healing Babs and then immediately putting her into the costume as Batgirl again they created a mental association and assumption that Babs is paralysed as Oracle and hale as Batgirl.

    So that's one problem. But there are also some deeper issues that further muddy the waters. The first is that Oracle became hugely important to many readers because she was in a wheelchair but still was a superhero. Oracle was a superhero who was disabled, but wasn't defined by their disability, nor had their superheroism tied to their disability (like Daredevil). That's why it became such an issue when DC magically healed her, just as it did with the implication that DC kills Poison Ivy in Heroes in Crisis. Oracle was important to a lot of people.

    A second is that current-day Babs as Batgirl tends to be written along one of two paths. The first is the "Burnside Babs" with its emphasis on Batgirl. A regression of Babs that is profoundly untrue to the history and character of Babs: a woman who had finished school, had started a career, became a congresswoman, and so on, and that's even before she became Oracle. The second is that Babs gets defined as a trauma victim. Being true to Babs past history and not making its trauma define her is a really tricky balance to strike, and my impression is that it's only Gail Simone and Mairghread Scott who has managed to do so, and even Simone failed at times.

    The wheelchair became the prop that helped to move Babs from the category of trauma victim to the one of trauma survivor. Writers can trust in the wheelchair to remind readers of her past, and thus does not need to bring it up unless needed by the plot, and when they do bring it up the emphasis becomes more that Babs have moved on, even if the people around her might not.

    Somewhat paradoxically, Babs the person can be healed, but Babs the comic book character needs the wheelchair in order to not be defined by her past injury and trauma.

    The fact that Batgirl is just another Bat character while Oracle filled a unique niche and was her own character in every way has already been covered earlier.

    (BTW, this topic really needed a poll.)
    If Oracle needs the wheelchair then the wheelchair, and that constant display of her injury and trauma, is what defines her. It’s not really that complicated.

    As much as people like to claim how Oracle was survivor and how important she was, they forget how miserable and unimportant she actually became. What’s more in today’s world Oracle as she was would be outdated. Today’s technology is incredibly mobile. And as much some people started to complain that they made her Batgirl again, it’s not like there was a lot of genuine support for Oracle when she was around.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 12-20-2018 at 03:02 AM.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    If Oracle needs the wheelchair then the wheelchair, and that constant reminder of her injury and trauma, is what defines her. It’s not really that complicated.
    Partly, but it's also been developed into a signal that the past trauma now is past her. That means that writers don't need to handle it, unless they want to write a story where it plays a part. More on that later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    As much as people like to claim how Oracle was survivor and how important she was, they forget how miserable and unimportant she actually became. What’s more in today’s world Oracle would be outdated. And as much some people started to complain that they made her Batgirl again, it’s not like there was a lot of genuine support for Oracle when she was around.
    There are people who still sit, or sat, in wheelchairs and for whom Oracle is and was hugely important. I know, because I know one of them. They're not going away, even with modern medicine.

    And making Babs miserable and unimportant is on the writers, not on the character. It's a choice they make to write her character such. Even Dixon managed to write Babs as non-miserable and important.

    It might seem strange of me to blame writers for that, and not for writers writing Babs-as-Batgirl poorly, but there is a difference. Writing Babs-as-Oracle well requires the writer to not only see her wheelchair and present her as capable and as a whole person—that really ought to be a very low bar to clear. (Yale, Ostrander, Dixon, and Simone has already done all the heavy lifting needed.) Writing Babs-as-Batgirl well requires a constant cruise between regression, erasure of Babs' history, and Babs mentally wallowing in past trauma.

    The wheelchair serves as a symbol that externalises the past trauma, and thus frees the writer from internalising it—into Babs. The only writer that I know of who managed to write Babs-as-Batgirl non-traumatised so far is Mairghread Scott, and she did it exactly that way: she externalised it, by moving it onto Jim Gordon and by showing—guess what—the wheelchair.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    If Oracle needs the wheelchair then the wheelchair, and that constant display of her injury and trauma, is what defines her. It’s not really that complicated.

    As much as people like to claim how Oracle was survivor and how important she was, they forget how miserable and unimportant she actually became. What’s more in today’s world Oracle as she was would be outdated. Today’s technology is incredibly mobile. And as much some people started to complain that they made her Batgirl again, it’s not like there was a lot of genuine support for Oracle when she was around.
    A number of superheroes abilities are actually obsolete with modern technology.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Oracle. It's not even close.

    One is a powerful respected disabled roll model who doesn't allow her disability to stop her being a superhero. A unique character.

    The other is a crappy Batman copycat from the days when an unhealthy proportion of female characters were just female versions of established male characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Babs doesn’t need to be paralyzed to be Oracle.
    Obviously she wouldn't need to be to do the job, but it's a big part of what made her a good character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    As much as people like to claim how Oracle was survivor and how important she was, they forget how miserable and unimportant she actually became.
    Even at her least important, Oracle has always been much more important than Batgirl has ever been.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Partly, but it's also been developed into a signal that the past trauma now is past her. That means that writers don't need to handle it, unless they want to write a story where it plays a part. More on that later.

    There are people who still sit, or sat, in wheelchairs and for whom Oracle is and was hugely important. I know, because I know one of them. They're not going away, even with modern medicine.

    And making Babs miserable and unimportant is on the writers, not on the character. It's a choice they make to write her character such. Even Dixon managed to write Babs as non-miserable and important.

    It might seem strange of me to blame writers for that, and not for writers writing Babs-as-Batgirl poorly, but there is a difference. Writing Babs-as-Oracle well requires the writer to not only see her wheelchair and present her as capable and as a whole person—that really ought to be a very low bar to clear. (Yale, Ostrander, Dixon, and Simone has already done all the heavy lifting needed.) Writing Babs-as-Batgirl well requires a constant cruise between regression, erasure of Babs' history, and Babs mentally wallowing in past trauma.

    The wheelchair serves as a symbol that externalises the past trauma, and thus frees the writer from internalising it—into Babs. The only writer that I know of who managed to write Babs-as-Batgirl non-traumatised so far is Mairghread Scott, and she did it exactly that way: she externalised it, by moving it onto Jim Gordon and by showing—guess what—the wheelchair.
    The wheelchair made for a powerful image, but it also came with a reality and writers always had to handle that reality of being in a wheelchair. So it was never something they could chose to not handle. It was her reality.

    And its not strange, its just a clear and unfair double standard. Your just making up rules here. Oracle requires to be written like this, and Batgirl require to be written like that. Says who? That double standard is just silly.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 12-20-2018 at 06:43 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Even at her least important, Oracle has always been much more important than Batgirl has ever been.
    Ya, that was made quite evident during Batman Reborn. What's real sad though, it won't be long before Oracle isn't even important to BoP. But please, lets continue to claim how important Oracle was.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 12-20-2018 at 06:41 AM.

  11. #41
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Oracle. Cassie can be Batgirl.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, SiKtC, Catwoman, Nightwing, Titans, Godzilla, Wonder Woman, Batman & Robin, Brave and the Bold, No/One, Kill your Darlings, and Deviant.
    My runs: Batman #230-, and Detective #420-

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The wheelchair made for a powerful image, but it also came with a reality and writers always had to handle that reality of being in a wheelchair. So it was never something they could chose to not handle. It was her reality.

    And its not strange, its just a clear and unfair double standard. Your just making up rules here. Oracle requires to be written like this, and Batgirl require to be written like that. Says who? That double standard is just silly.
    No, it's not a double standard, because in both cases I want a mature Babs who has moved beyond TKJ. But due to the way the character has developed, and the constraints on storytelling, it is much easier to do so with Babs as Oracle. For reasons that I explained, and can be observed by reading the stories.

    There is also the moral stance, that Oracle became an icon to a group that is and was disadvantaged. By looking at Babs as Oracle and trying to evolve from there, it sends a signal to the disabled community that they matter to DC. Reverting Babs to Batgirl sends the opposite signal. That was something that Simone really understood, but I'm not sure the people at DC understand it, or that they care.

    Another factor that comes in play here is the matter of turf. As Batgirl, her turf was Gotham, but she could only play in it on Batman's premises, and she was largely constrained by it. But Oracle moved naturally out from it, by being placed in international spy and heist stories. She was not a bat-vigilante anymore, but rather had a framework similar to the original Mission: Impossible or Charlie's Angels. By putting Babs back into the suit, the Birds of Prey has been reduced to another bat gang working in Gotham, while earlier their scope was the world.

  13. #43
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    . . . and even her science pales in comparison to current Tim (a mistake IMO, but it's done).
    I don't remember Babs being very science-strong in the past. Before CoIE she was a librarian and then a Congresswoman who had also studied dance. Information was her past strength, plus her memory.

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    As much as people like to claim how Oracle was survivor and how important she was, they forget how miserable and unimportant she actually became.
    I have heard this for years and I've never understood or agreed with it.

    Was Babs a little broody as Oracle? Sometimes, yeah. Everyone in the Bat-Clan is like that. Even Dick, easily the happiest and most well adjusted of them all, can brood and angst with the best of them if he has a mind to. But I also remember a lot of Babs smiling and laughing while she was in the chair too.

    And "unimportant" feels like a total and complete fabrication. Which role was Babs in when she joined the League? Oracle. Which role gave her contacts and made her a regular guest star in practically any book DC published? Oracle. Which role gave her her first (to my knowledge) staring role in a book? Oracle. Babs didn't have a solo as Batgirl until the New52 but had been a star in Birds of Prey for what, fifteen years before that? Personal preferences aside, the only complaint that can be made about Oracle's importance is that she didn't have a full-on solo book.....but she never did as Batgirl either, until a few years ago. And since returning to Batgirl, what amazing things has Babs done? Has she joined the League, been deeply and critically involved in major Events, or even built relationships beyond the standard Gotham circle? No. She's just another vigilante in a city overflowing with vigilantes.

    What’s more in today’s world Oracle as she was would be outdated. Today’s technology is incredibly mobile. And as much some people started to complain that they made her Batgirl again, it’s not like there was a lot of genuine support for Oracle when she was around.
    I've also heard this a lot and it still makes no sense to me. What's the idea here, that Babs can't upgrade her tech but everyone else can? Oracle did a lot more than call a hero and say "Hey, there's a fire three blocks away, and if you had Google alerts you'd know that already!" Babs organized the heroic community in a way that went far beyond just telling a hero about a minor crisis in their own neighborhood.

    The upgrades Cyborg has gotten could make him fill this same role but DC doesn't seem interested in making Vic that important. But that is also fairly telling; if the only other hero who is qualified and capable of filling Oracle's role is a cyborg with a New God's Mother Box for a heart that says quite a bit about Babs doesnt it?

    EDIT: Now, the complaint about Babs still being in the chair when the DCU is full of magic and super science is definitely valid. But then......why doesn't Batman run around in full-on power armor all the time, when the world is full of monsters and we know he has armor like that already? For that matter, why is Gotham still a cesspool? Bruce could call in the League and have that entire city squeaky clean in the course of a weekend.
    Last edited by Ascended; 12-20-2018 at 10:44 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    No, it's not a double standard, because in both cases I want a mature Babs who has moved beyond TKJ. But due to the way the character has developed, and the constraints on storytelling, it is much easier to do so with Babs as Oracle. For reasons that I explained, and can be observed by reading the stories.

    There is also the moral stance, that Oracle became an icon to a group that is and was disadvantaged. By looking at Babs as Oracle and trying to evolve from there, it sends a signal to the disabled community that they matter to DC. Reverting Babs to Batgirl sends the opposite signal. That was something that Simone really understood, but I'm not sure the people at DC understand it, or that they care.

    Another factor that comes in play here is the matter of turf. As Batgirl, her turf was Gotham, but she could only play in it on Batman's premises, and she was largely constrained by it. But Oracle moved naturally out from it, by being placed in international spy and heist stories. She was not a bat-vigilante anymore, but rather had a framework similar to the original Mission: Impossible or Charlie's Angels. By putting Babs back into the suit, the Birds of Prey has been reduced to another bat gang working in Gotham, while earlier their scope was the world.
    It is a double standard. When it’s bad with Oracle that’s on the writers, but when it’s bad with Batgirl that’s on Batgirl. That’s a double standard. There is no actual rule book, so telling us how they according to you they are require to be written doesn’t make it not a double standard.

    Icon is a bit of a stretch. While it’s cool that Oracle was a symbol to the disabled community, how much of a disabled community with in the comic market there actually is is rather questionable. It’s not like it was from the disabled community that the complaint about making her Batgirl really came from. It’s mostly non-disabled people saying how important she was to disabled people. Not that I’m saying there weren’t disabled people she wasn’t important too.

    Yes and no. Oracle had her own restraints. When she expanded beyond Gotham or her usual turf it was fleeting. It came to point where Oracle stopped moving at all and became very stuck as a character. The ideas became repetitive, it was either have her be support to someone else or just put here back in BoP. Oracle hit a wall and stopped progressing.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 12-20-2018 at 02:08 PM.

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