Barbara Gordon - as Batgirl or as Oracle?

[Godlike13]

I have heard this for years and I've never understood or agreed with it.

Was Babs a little broody as Oracle? Sometimes, yeah. Everyone in the Bat-Clan is like that. Even Dick, easily the happiest and most well adjusted of them all, can brood and angst with the best of them if he has a mind to. But I also remember a lot of Babs smiling and laughing while she was in the chair too.

And "unimportant" feels like a total and complete fabrication. Which role was Babs in when she joined the League? Oracle. Which role gave her contacts and made her a regular guest star in practically any book DC published? Oracle. Which role gave her her first (to my knowledge) staring role in a book? Oracle. Babs didn't have a solo as Batgirl until the New52 but had been a star in Birds of Prey for what, fifteen years before that? Personal preferences aside, the only complaint that can be made about Oracle's importance is that she didn't have a full-on solo book.....but she never did as Batgirl either, until a few years ago. And since returning to Batgirl, what amazing things has Babs done? Has she joined the League, been deeply and critically involved in major Events, or even built relationships beyond the standard Gotham circle? No. She's just another vigilante in a city overflowing with vigilantes.

I've also heard this a lot and it still makes no sense to me. What's the idea here, that Babs can't upgrade her tech but everyone else can? Oracle did a lot more than call a hero and say "Hey, there's a fire three blocks away, and if you had Google alerts you'd know that already!" Babs organized the heroic community in a way that went far beyond just telling a hero about a minor crisis in their own neighborhood.

The upgrades Cyborg has gotten could make him fill this same role but DC doesn't seem interested in making Vic that important. But that is also fairly telling; if the only other hero who is qualified and capable of filling Oracle's role is a cyborg with a New God's Mother Box for a heart that says quite a bit about Babs doesnt it?

EDIT: Now, the complaint about Babs still being in the chair when the DCU is full of magic and super science is definitely valid. But then......why doesn't Batman run around in full-on power armor all the time, when the world is full of monsters and we know he has armor like that already? For that matter, why is Gotham still a cesspool? Bruce could call in the League and have that entire city squeaky clean in the course of a weekend.

That’s being selective. Her time on JL was fleeting, she stopped being a regular guest star in books, and even BoP wasn’t stable anymore. It’s came to a point where Oracle’s role the DCU was to support the new Batgirl. At a time where everyone around here was seeing massive changes to their role too. She became very miserable, had to be emotionally saved by the new Batgirl, and her stories even became rather hard to stomach. It was a hell of thing to have to watch her get wheelchaired down a flight of stairs. Even Black Mirror, a story which I thought was fantastic, shes being stabbed in the legs and tortured. Things got really bleak with Oracle, and what’s more she stopped really progressing.

Yes and no. In today’s world computers and technology is all about convenience, ease of use, and being mobile. The days of sitting at a desktop isn’t really as relatable or true to today’s time. Superhero’s don’t really need a 411, and knowledge and information is readily at the palm of ones hand. Cyborg doesn’t need to fill Oracle’s role. But your right, Babs could indeed upgrade her technology and Oracle could evolve to be truer and more relatable to today’s time.

[kjn]

It is a double standard. When it’s bad with Oracle that’s on the writers, but when it’s bad with Batgirl that’s on Batgirl. That’s a double standard. There is no actual rule book, so telling us how they according to you are require to be written doesn’t make it not a double standard.

No, it's not a double standard because it has been shown to be much harder to write Babs-as-Batgirl with her experience intact and as a survivor rather than a victim than Babs-as-Oracle. It can be viewed in the texts themselves. And rather, I'd blame DC and the editors on choosing to place a much harder task on the writers. It's not the fault of the character that she has been formed into something exceedingly tricky to write, it's the fault of an editors for placing the writer in that position.

Icon is a bit of a stretch. While it’s cool that Oracle was a symbol to the disabled community, how much of a disabled community with in the comic market there actually is is rather questionable. It’s not like it was from the disabled community that the complaint about making her Batgirl really came from. It’s mostly non-disabled people saying how important she was to disabled people. Not that I’m saying there weren’t disabled people she wasn’t important too.

You'd be wrong about that. Jill Pantozzi was the first person to react; I'd recommend you read her article. Gail Simone did, and took it really seriously. I recommend you read that one too.

Yes and no. Oracle had her own restraints. When she expanded beyond Gotham or her usual turf it was fleeting. It came to point where Oracle stopped moving at all and became very stuck as a character. The ideas became repetitive, it was either have her be support to someone else or just put here back in BoP. Oracle hit a wall and stopped progressing.

So the only solution then was to move her backwards, rather than finding better writers who could move the character forward again? And it's not like Batman and Superman are very dynamic in character development nowadays.

And to make another analogue, what would you say if DC used Dick Grayson's recent trauma to put him back as Robin and Batman's sidekick? Because that's what the return of Babs as Batgirl turned out to become.

ETA: s/is/turned out to become.

[Arctic Cyclist]

I feel that as Oracle Babs filled a very important role. In many ways she was the most powerful person on Earth and at least an equal to Bruce in importance, not to mention the most competent person in the world in her area of expertise.

As Batgirl she's just another person and, worse, she turns into generic bat-person: she can't outfight Cass (or most bat-people, for that matter), she can't out-quirk Steph, she can't out-acrobat Dick and even her science pales in comparison to current Tim (a mistake IMO, but it's done).

So, Oracle.

That said, I don't want to put her back in the chair.

Considering that there's a story in one of the Christmas Specials (2008? 2009?) where she and Supergirl intercept and prevent all 911 calls and other emergencies in Gotham for 24 hours, the argument that Oracle is more important and powerful than Batman wins.

That's no sirens at all, in December, a snowy December, in a city of eight million people. That means no accidents. No strokes. No heart attacks. No speeding. No robberies, thefts, break ins, drug deals, overdoses, domestic violence, assaults, rapes, murders, or any other emergency for 24 hours because Barbara Gordon said so.

As much as I want Commissioner Barbara Gordon, I can't deny Oracle was amazing as a character. No other character is capable of that while still allowing everyone in the city complete freedom. (Of course she and Kara were wiped out by it, but the point was they showed the city what it was capable of.)

So Oracle wins hands down.

[Godlike13]

No, it's not a double standard because it has been shown to be much harder to write Babs-as-Batgirl with her experience intact and as a survivor rather than a victim than Babs-as-Oracle. It can be viewed in the texts themselves. And rather, I'd blame DC and the editors on choosing to place a much harder task on the writers. It's not the fault of the character that she has been formed into something exceedingly tricky to write, it's the fault of an editors for placing the writer in that position.

You'd be wrong about that. Jill Pantozzi was the first person to react; I'd recommend you read her article. Gail Simone did, and took it really seriously. I recommend you read that one too.

So the only solution then was to move her backwards, rather than finding better writers who could move the character forward again? And it's not like Batman and Superman are very dynamic in character development nowadays.

And to make another analogue, what would you say if DC used Dick Grayson's recent trauma to put him back as Robin and Batman's sidekick? Because that's what the return of Babs as Batgirl is.

It was shown to have become hard to write Oracle as not victim, and was displayed in the texts at the time. Only blaming it on the writers for one is a double standard. And again, these rules you made up, and what you determined is required, doesn’t make it not a double standard.

I read that one article, and I sympathize. But that’s one person, not necessarily a community that exist within the market, and while that article was an exception more often then not it was, and remains, non-disabled people objecting and telling others how important she was to disabled people. As you yourself are doing.

And no that is not the only solution, and at this point I’d take Dick as Robin over Ric. It’d would be far from ideal. But if it would mean the end of this miserable Ric crap and allow for Dick to see new progression as a character I could be open to it.

Btw when did this become about Batgirl vs Oracle. Though I gues that is the topic, but my original point was that Babs doesn’t need to paralyzed to be Oracle. Some how i got from there to here lol. So think I’m just gonna bow out here. I actually do adore Oracle. I just wish DC, and more readers even, did too.

[Ascended]

That’s being selective. Things got really bleak with Oracle, and what’s more she stopped really progressing.

Things get bad with every character. That doesn't mean the foundation of the character is flawed, it doesnt mean you wipe out everything and start from scratch, it just means you pull them back on course.

Yes and no. In today’s world computers and technology is all about convenience, ease of use, and being mobile. The days of sitting at a desktop isn’t really as relatable or true to today’s time. Superhero’s don’t really need a 411, and knowledge and information is readily at the palm of ones hand. Cyborg doesn’t need to fill Oracle’s role. But your right, Babs could indeed upgrade her technology and Oracle could evolve to be truer and more relatable to today’s time.

Cyber security is more important today than it has ever been. You say (not you you, just a generic "you") that Oracle is now nothing more than a Google alert? That was true fifteen years ago. But today? Today Oracle should be the NSA/cyber security of the heroic community. That's just a natural evolution of the role.

Saying that Oracle has no purpose because technology has changed would be like saying Batman has no purpose because the technology he used in 1940 is outdated.

[kjn]

It was shown to have become hard to write Oracle as not victim, and was displayed in the texts at the time. Only blaming it on the writers for one is a double standard. And again, these rules you made up, and what you determined is required, doesn’t make it not a double standard.

Or you can say that I blame the editors, for placing the writers to write handle a much harder narrative problem.

So while you can have Babs as Oracle without the wheelchair, there are meta-narrative reasons to keep the wheelchair around, and the way that Babs have been written and developed in New 52 have reinforced those reasons.

I read that one article, and I sympathize. But that’s one person, not necessarily a community that exist within the market, and while that article was an exception more often then not it was, and remains, non-disabled people objecting and telling others how important she was to non-disabled people. As you yourself are doing.

Simone certainly not viewed it as "one article" but rather the article that she choose to engage with in order to engage with a community which reacted. My wife is also friends with another woman in a wheelchair who loves Oracle.

Cyber security is more important today than it has ever been. You say (not you you, just a generic "you") that Oracle is now nothing more than a Google alert? That was true fifteen years ago. But today? Today Oracle should be the NSA/cyber security of the heroic community. That's just a natural evolution of the role.

Personally, I think the Oracle-as-hacker is a poor take on her character. I much prefer Oracle-as-organiser. Computers are her tools, but organising the efforts of the heroes and making sure they have the things they need when they need them—which includes but is not limited to information—is what she does.

[Badou]

I prefer her as Batgirl. It isn't really close for me. I'm completely indifferent to Cass as a character and I like Steph as Spoiler, so I don't really care about sidelining Barbara to promote one of the other characters. At the end of the day Oracle is a supporting character and Batgirl is one of DC's most profitable female IPs. Her as Batgirl has far more utility so I prefer her in that role.

I enjoyed her as Oracle for a time, but Barbara's character became so stagnant before the New 52. She was just a guest star in some books and the BoP series had fallen off quite a bit. The concept has grown stale and she was no longer progressing as a character. She was just a symbol that people could point to for representation for disabled readers and wanted to keep her in the chair because of that, which I understand for some that is plenty of reason to keep her there, but with so many characters constantly getting hurt or killed and coming back with ease it just felt so forced to keep her locked to a chair when realistically she would want to try and do everything to get out of it.

Yes and no. In today’s world computers and technology is all about convenience, ease of use, and being mobile. The days of sitting at a desktop isn’t really as relatable or true to today’s time. Superhero’s don’t really need a 411, and knowledge and information is readily at the palm of ones hand.

This is a great point. It does kind of highlight how the "man in the chair" concept is getting a bit dated. Someone sitting behind a big computer screen and acting as a dispatcher and feeding information to people to coordinate movements isn't as needed anymore when everyone is so interconnected already and technology is moving to being more mobile, fast, and convenient.

[MajorHoy]

. . . This is a great point. It does kind of highlight how the "man in the chair" concept is getting a bit dated. Someone sitting behind a big computer screen and acting as a dispatcher and feeding information to people to coordinate movements isn't as needed anymore when everyone is so interconnected already and technology is moving to being more mobile, fast, and convenient.

Not really true. If people in the field are in the middle of a fight or are trying to flee from a greater danger, they don't always have time to check for data / coordinate with others. They can't just whip out their smart phones when a tidal wave is about to swallow them or they're fighting a mob of trained killers. Having people at a control center who can look into information while the field operative is concentrating on getting something else done at the moment can be very helpful. Plus, the coordinator can have multiple computers each focused on a different task at the same time, then put the results together in a logical, cohesive form for the field operative to quickly absorb and act on.

[Badou]

Not really true. If people in the field are in the middle of a fight or are trying to flee from a greater danger, they don't always have time to check for data / coordinate with others. They can't just whip out their smart phones when a tidal wave is about to swallow them or they're fighting a mob of trained killers. Having people at a control center who can look into information while the field operative is concentrating on getting something else done at the moment can be very helpful. Plus, the coordinator can have multiple computers each focused on a different task at the same time, then put the results together in a logical, cohesive form for the field operative to quickly absorb and act on.

But that kind of highlights my point. The role has been reduced down to just a few situations where it is usable. You have to have the actual hero distracted to make the "man in the chair" role work better. So the role has been lessened rather than being what it was when it was the 90s. As more time goes on this will become less and less because tech is moving towards being more mobile and even hands free. You can imagine tech reaching the point in comics where nearly every hero has a built in hands free computer in their costume that lets them visualize what they need and communicate with whoever they need by just voice or even thought commands. I don't think the role will go away entirely but it will have its significance reduced more and more.

[Ascended]

Not really true. If people in the field are in the middle of a fight or are trying to flee from a greater danger, they don't always have time to check for data / coordinate with others. They can't just whip out their smart phones when a tidal wave is about to swallow them or they're fighting a mob of trained killers. Having people at a control center who can look into information while the field operative is concentrating on getting something else done at the moment can be very helpful. Plus, the coordinator can have multiple computers each focused on a different task at the same time, then put the results together in a logical, cohesive form for the field operative to quickly absorb and act on.

Right?

When soldiers in the field no longer require the "guy in the chair" then I'll believe superheroes don't need someone in that role either. But until then it's as viable as anything. Hell, its more viable and integral than having another pair of boots on the ground (which is basically all Babs is these days).

[Agent Z]

It is a double standard. When it’s bad with Oracle that’s on the writers, but when it’s bad with Batgirl that’s on Batgirl. That’s a double standard. There is no actual rule book, so telling us how they according to you they are require to be written doesn’t make it not a double standard.

Icon is a bit of a stretch. While it’s cool that Oracle was a symbol to the disabled community, how much of a disabled community with in the comic market there actually is is rather questionable. It’s not like it was from the disabled community that the complaint about making her Batgirl really came from. It’s mostly non-disabled people saying how important she was to disabled people. Not that I’m saying there weren’t disabled people she wasn’t important too.

Yes and no. Oracle had her own restraints. When she expanded beyond Gotham or her usual turf it was fleeting. It came to point where Oracle stopped moving at all and became very stuck as a character. The ideas became repetitive, it was either have her be support to someone else or just put here back in BoP. Oracle hit a wall and stopped progressing.

This also happened to Barbara when she became Batgirl again and at a far faster rate.

[Armor of God]

While I prefer her as Oracle and dont particularly care for her after her New 52, I cant deny that Oracle is a bit of a useless character now. Boy what a change a decade can bring, tech and inter connectivity have improved by leaps and bounds so Oracle's primary gimmick is becoming increasingly redundant. Moreover the Oracle archetype is increasingly stale and cliched now, virtually every superhero has a tech/comm guy in both comics and mainstream adaptations so Oracle's "status" has been lost.

As Batgirl she atleast she pushes her own arcs forward in her own book, as Oracle she'll just be servicing others in their books or team books, where at best she might get occasional arcs or one shots. At the end of the day having your own solo and stories regardless of the content and tone and "importance" beats out everything else.

Cass fans certainly wouldn't like it if she starts running a dojo and every superhero starts visiting her for a crash course on fighting, discipline and spiritual healing in that position she could also show up in different books and be treated as someone integral to the superhero community but I dont think any Cass fan would want that over Batgirl even though Batgirl would be just another generic crime fighter prowling Gotham's streets at night in comparison.

[Fergus]

I prefer her as Batgirl. It isn't really close for me. I'm completely indifferent to Cass as a character and I like Steph as Spoiler, so I don't really care about sidelining Barbara to promote one of the other characters. At the end of the day Oracle is a supporting character and Batgirl is one of DC's most profitable female IPs. Her as Batgirl has far more utility so I prefer her in that role.

I enjoyed her as Oracle for a time, but Barbara's character became so stagnant before the New 52. She was just a guest star in some books and the BoP series had fallen off quite a bit. The concept has grown stale and she was no longer progressing as a character. She was just a symbol that people could point to for representation for disabled readers and wanted to keep her in the chair because of that, which I understand for some that is plenty of reason to keep her there, but with so many characters constantly getting hurt or killed and coming back with ease it just felt so forced to keep her locked to a chair when realistically she would want to try and do everything to get out of it.

Pretty much this for me. I like Babs in both roles but prefer her as Batgirl because it's more in use.

[Frontier]

I prefer her as Batgirl. It isn't really close for me. I'm completely indifferent to Cass as a character and I like Steph as Spoiler, so I don't really care about sidelining Barbara to promote one of the other characters. At the end of the day Oracle is a supporting character and Batgirl is one of DC's most profitable female IPs. Her as Batgirl has far more utility so I prefer her in that role.

I enjoyed her as Oracle for a time, but Barbara's character became so stagnant before the New 52. She was just a guest star in some books and the BoP series had fallen off quite a bit. The concept has grown stale and she was no longer progressing as a character. She was just a symbol that people could point to for representation for disabled readers and wanted to keep her in the chair because of that, which I understand for some that is plenty of reason to keep her there, but with so many characters constantly getting hurt or killed and coming back with ease it just felt so forced to keep her locked to a chair when realistically she would want to try and do everything to get out of it.

I just don't really see her return as Batgirl as much of a solution to character stagnation since it seems like DC keeps spinning their wheels with what they want to do with Batgirl.

Like, has there really been any forward momentum with Babs as Batgirl since she put the suit on again? Simone's run kept coming back to the Killing Joke and Babs' trauma, the Burnside run regressed her into a younger Superhero in a hipster city, nothing of note really happened in Larson's run...it seems like Batgirl is as stagnant as Oracle was, just not as well-written.

As Batgirl she atleast she pushes her own arcs forward in her own book, as Oracle she'll just be servicing others in their books or team books, where at best she might get occasional arcs or one shots. At the end of the day having your own solo and stories regardless of the content and tone and "importance" beats out everything else.

I think Birds of Prey was as much her book as it was anyone else's. I don't think she was ever really a supporting character in it even when she wasn't physically active in missions as Canary and Huntress were.

[KurtW95]

Batgirl. TKJ should never have been incorporated into the main canon.