Barbara Gordon - as Batgirl or as Oracle?

[Godlike13]

Like, has there really been any forward momentum with Babs as Batgirl since she put the suit on again? Simone's run kept coming back to the Killing Joke and Babs' trauma, the Burnside run regressed her into a younger Superhero in a hipster city, nothing of note really happened in Larson's run...it seems like Batgirl is as stagnant as Oracle was, just not as well-written.

Not sure how one can look at Batgirl from New 52, to Burnside, and to now and say Batgirl is as stagnate as Oracle. Since she has returned to Batgirl they changed tones, directions, and clearly experimented with her. Trying to branch her out into different markets. Good or bad.

[Badou]

I just don't really see her return as Batgirl as much of a solution to character stagnation since it seems like DC keeps spinning their wheels with what they want to do with Batgirl.

Like, has there really been any forward momentum with Babs as Batgirl since she put the suit on again? Simone's run kept coming back to the Killing Joke and Babs' trauma, the Burnside run regressed her into a younger Superhero in a hipster city, nothing of note really happened in Larson's run...it seems like Batgirl is as stagnant as Oracle was, just not as well-written.

I think that is more of a symptom of the New 52 and so many characters being deaged and regressed more so than just moving her to Batgirl. You can make the same arguments about Nightwing or even Superman before they decided to bring the pre-New 52 one back. One of the biggest complains from Nightwing fans is how much he has regressed from the hero that took up the Batman mantel, lead the JL, and had his own Robin. So I don't think this is a unique problem to just Barbara.

Simone's run showed her as a a little more mature, but during that time the whole Batman line, and maybe the New 52 as a whole, had all their books be very dark. That was something DC wanted from their books and pushed it. The amount of just horrible and awful things that the heroes went through in that period were many. Again just look at Nightwing as an example during that time. His old home Haly's Circus became a nightmare for him, they killed off Mr Haly, they killed off his childhood friends, and then they had Dick buy and watch the circus be burned to the ground. It was very dark and I think after Simone's run she even made statements about it.

But this also highlights another point. During that time no one had any idea of what was and what wasn't canon anymore in the New 52. So writers were limited in the stories they could tell. So you saw Simone focus a lot on The Killing Joke or the James Jr stuff because that was established as being canon, and spawned from popular stories too, but it was the same with Higgins Nightwing. So much of his run focused on the circus because that was the only thing he knew was canon and could use. It was all a mess, even though The Killing Joke focused lead to Batgirl being the highest selling female book at that time.

Then I think DC made a very obvious decision in that they wanted to write Babs' Batgirl as a young adult character. So the Burnside run happened and wrote her more like a younger college student that her age reflected. So they changed the costume, the art style, and moved her to a part of Gotham that they could isolate her and didn't have her interact too much with the Batman family to tell more young adult style stories with her. I think her comic might have even been reduced from a T+ rating to a T rating. So they were trying to market the book differently. Barbara was younger than she had ever been in the comics arguably and I think it is fine to experiment with her character more.

Sure, some didn't like this change and believe it went on longer than it should have, but this was something that Oracle could never had done. Oracle was a very static character and you are kind of limited in what to do with her, which is why she was more a support character than a lead. Just looking at Barbata from Simone's run, to the Burnside run, and to the current run she has been anything but static. Sure there were periods of stagnation (which isn't unique to just her character), but the amount of utility the role of Batgirl has is just so much greater than Oracle and why it isn't close for me in which identity I prefer.

[JoeZ]

Oracle, with Cassie as Batgirl and Steph as Spoiler.

This one.

10char

[Ascended]

Since she has returned to Batgirl they changed tones, directions, and clearly experimented with her. Trying to branch her out into different markets. Good or bad.

As I recall the Burnside stuff happened because sales were dropping fast, so less "this character is so stable we can afford to experiment" and more "if we don't experiment the book will be cancelled." Doesn't strike me as a great argument for Babs' success, unless I'm remembering things wrong (which is totally possible).

And Oracle could easily see the same kind of experimentation and shifts in tone.

A lot of people seem to think the role is more limited than it is. You can do plenty with Oracle, with just as much variation as Batgirl. From political-thriller to fun Austin Powers/Charlie's Angels romps to post-modern cyber hack. The only limitation is what a person can imagine, and in today's world the idea that there's nothing to do or say with Oracle just strikes me as short sighted. No offense to anyone meant, you do you, but if I can see a dozen different ways to make Oracle work then a pro should be able to see a hundred.

[Ascended]

While I prefer her as Oracle and dont particularly care for her after her New 52, I cant deny that Oracle is a bit of a useless character now. Boy what a change a decade can bring, tech and inter connectivity have improved by leaps and bounds so Oracle's primary gimmick is becoming increasingly redundant. Moreover the Oracle archetype is increasingly stale and cliched now, virtually every superhero has a tech/comm guy in both comics and mainstream adaptations so Oracle's "status" has been lost.

Isn't this a double standard? If the role has no value and no use anymore because technology has improved so much, then why does every hero have a "guy in the chair" now? If the role serves no purpose they wouldn't need one of their own.

And a lot of heroes had that already when Babs was Oracle. She just did it better than the rest, for the entire community. It was pretty straight forward; if there was a problem in the hero's usual stomping grounds, their personal "guy in the chair" handled it and ran intel. If there was a problem the hero was well suited for that lay outside their usual orbit (and therefore wouldn't necessarily know about or deal with said problem) Oracle sent them. If there was a bigger problem than the resident chair guy could handle, the hero called Oracle.

Nothing about that has changed except the details. Oracle doesn't have to be a Google alert anymore, which means she can focus her problems on other cyber threats. Of which there are far more now than there have ever been.

Seriously, saying Oracle doesn't serve a point anymore, in a world where the US government has to hire third parties to hack iPhones and elections are being swayed by social media campaigns launched by other countries, I'd say that Oracle is more important and has more narrative options now than ever. You just have to look a little bit beyond the standard capes n' cowls mentality to see it.

[kjn]

As Batgirl she atleast she pushes her own arcs forward in her own book, as Oracle she'll just be servicing others in their books or team books, where at best she might get occasional arcs or one shots. At the end of the day having your own solo and stories regardless of the content and tone and "importance" beats out everything else.

The value of having your own title depends a lot on the time. Back during Babs first tour as Batgirl, there were relatively few titles, but she had regular solo adventures as backup features in Detective Comics and other titles, and she had been a regular in the Batman TV series. The media landscape was simply very dissimilar then, making many direct comparisons useless.

As Oracle, she was essentially the co-lead, as Frontier noted, and when they added new characters the result was more that Huntress and Lady Blackhawk shared the co-lead status with Babs. My impression is that Babs-as-Batgirl is less important to the current Birds of Prey title in story time, despite having her name on the title page, and they are more tied to Gotham than they were earlier in the Oracle days.

[Frontier]

Not sure how one can look at Batgirl from New 52, to Burnside, and to now and say Batgirl is as stagnate as Oracle. Since she has returned to Batgirl they changed tones, directions, and clearly experimented with her. Trying to branch her out into different markets. Good or bad.

Sure, some didn't like this change and believe it went on longer than it should have, but this was something that Oracle could never had done. Oracle was a very static character and you are kind of limited in what to do with her, which is why she was more a support character than a lead. Just looking at Barbata from Simone's run, to the Burnside run, and to the current run she has been anything but static. Sure there were periods of stagnation (which isn't unique to just her character), but the amount of utility the role of Batgirl has is just so much greater than Oracle and why it isn't close for me in which identity I prefer.

I don't know, it seems like to me that DC doesn't really know what they want to do with Barbara as Batgirl so they keep experimenting and changing her to try and find something that sticks or works. As Batgirl she hasn't found a strong baseline that Cass or Steph had in their solo books.

Maybe she couldn't have become a hipster millennial Superhero or changed but I prefer Oracle's maturity, history, and character consistency to Burnside Batgirl. But that's just me.

I think whether Oracle was in a supporting role depended on what book you were reading. Like, she was definitely a supporting character in Cass and Steph's books (although I'd say she was almost a co-lead at times), or in Nightwing, but I think she was definitely a lead in Birds of Prey.

[Badou]

As I recall the Burnside stuff happened because sales were dropping fast, so less "this character is so stable we can afford to experiment" and more "if we don't experiment the book will be cancelled." Doesn't strike me as a great argument for Babs' success, unless I'm remembering things wrong (which is totally possible).

And Oracle could easily see the same kind of experimentation and shifts in tone.

A lot of people seem to think the role is more limited than it is. You can do plenty with Oracle, with just as much variation as Batgirl. From political-thriller to fun Austin Powers/Charlie's Angels romps to post-modern cyber hack. The only limitation is what a person can imagine, and in today's world the idea that there's nothing to do or say with Oracle just strikes me as short sighted. No offense to anyone meant, you do you, but if I can see a dozen different ways to make Oracle work then a pro should be able to see a hundred.

I believe the Burnside run came about with the DC YOU movement where DC was experimenting more. The Grayson run also came out during this time too. So it wasn't so much about her sales and I think more about DC trying to change things up with different creative teams after the original New 52 creative teams left.

But I think to argue that Oracle has the same amount of utility as Batgirl is completely false. You can make the same arguments about how Batgirl can do everything Oracle can from political-thrillers to fun Austin Powers/Charlie's Angels romps to post-modern cyber hack as it just depends on how the creators want to use her, but it doesn't work the other way around. Oracle can't do everything Batgirl can because Batgirl can do everything Oracle is able to while also being an active hero and that is a massive difference.

Also as Batgirl they can write her as being more mature or inexperienced and a lot younger if they want. They have a much larger freedom of range in how they can write her character. As Oracle she can only be mature, so you are limited in that area as well.

[Frontier]

But I think to argue that Oracle has the same amount of utility as Batgirl is completely false. You can make the same arguments about how Batgirl can do everything Oracle can from political-thrillers to fun Austin Powers/Charlie's Angels romps to post-modern cyber hack as it just depends on how the creators want to use her, but it doesn't work the other way around. Oracle can't do everything Batgirl can because Batgirl can do everything Oracle is able to while also being an active hero and that is a massive difference.

There is definitely a lot of story potential for Babs as Batgirl but ever since she's come back it doesn't seem like all this potential has been realized or been as acclaimed as her stories or writing as Oracle were, nor is her standing in the Batfamily as strong as it was back then (so she can't really do everything Oracle was able to do).

Also as Batgirl they can write her as being more mature or inexperienced and a lot younger if they want. They have a much larger freedom of range in how they can write her character. As Oracle she can only be mature, so you are limited in that area as well.

I think that maturity was what people enjoyed about Oracle and what that brought to Barbara Gordon's character, hence the divisiveness over Burnside.

But I think as a whole being mature is usually more of a Barbara Gordon, be she Batgirl or Oracle.

[Ascended]

But I think to argue that Oracle has the same amount of utility as Batgirl is completely false.

You're right; Oracle has more.

Just being snarky for lol's, folks, dont mind me.

You can make the same arguments about how Batgirl can do everything Oracle can from political-thrillers to fun Austin Powers/Charlie's Angels romps to post-modern cyber hack as it just depends on how the creators want to use her, but it doesn't work the other way around. Oracle can't do everything Batgirl can because Batgirl can do everything Oracle is able to while also being an active hero and that is a massive difference.

Then why hasn't Babs done anything other than standard superhero stuff since she became Batgirl again?

It's also a false equivalency that Babs has to be in the wheelchair as Oracle. She could keep the role and the use of her legs; the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Also as Batgirl they can write her as being more mature or inexperienced and a lot younger if they want. They have a much larger freedom of range in how they can write her character. As Oracle she can only be mature, so you are limited in that area as well.

I dont get this one at all. Babs *has* to be mature as Oracle? Because tech experts are always stoic old people, right?

[Badou]

There is definitely a lot of story potential for Babs as Batgirl but ever since she's come back it doesn't seem like all this potential has been realized or been as acclaimed as her stories or writing as Oracle were, nor is her standing in the Batfamily as strong as it was back then (so she can't really do everything Oracle was able to do).

Just because you feel it hasn't been realized doesn't mean that it isn't true. I believe she has more utility as Batgirl than Oracle and I can't see how it could be the other way around.

But lets look back. What Oracle story was so great and gave her massive amounts of development in the years before the New 52? Her romance with Nightwing? I can't think of anything that comes close to what Burnside was in terms of experimenting with the character. I get people enjoyed her as Oracle but I think they forget just how static she was in that she didn't really develop or change. All the development was pushed to Cass, Step, Dick, or Jim Gordon in the stories she was mostly involved in.

But the Batman standing thing can relate to pretty much ever Batman family member since the New 52. Is Tim's standing any better? Like since the New 52 there hasn't been one instance where it was just Dick and Tim interacting with each other without someone else being involved. So she can do everything Oracle can because it just takes one writer to write her differently if they want. If a writer wants to come in and write Dick and Tim as being super close brothers they can, so it is the same with Barbara's standing in the Batman family.

I think that maturity was what people enjoyed about Oracle and what that brought to Barbara Gordon's character, hence the divisiveness over Burnside.

But I think as a whole being mature is usually more of a Barbara Gordon, be she Batgirl or Oracle.

But Barbara was now younger than she had ever been in the comics. So I think it is fine to experiment with writing her as being much younger since she was. The Burnside run was very popular even if people think it went on too long. The thing is that if they want to start writing her as more mature they can. Simone's Batgirl was pretty mature, but it doesn't work the other way. If she was Oracle she is limited in how they can use her and show her.

[kjn]

I dont get this one at all. Babs *has* to be mature as Oracle? Because tech experts are always stoic old people, right?

Depends on what you mean by maturity. But Babs has at various points in her career finished a master in Library Science, of her own volition started as a masked vigilante, of her own volition quit being a masked vigilante, run her own superhero team with a focus on international issues, been a congresswoman, walked away from Amanda Waller, mentored two other Batgirls, overcome severe emotional and physical trauma, and a lot more.

She needs not be stoic or old. But she should be portrayed as experienced, and showing that experience. Remember that when Babs was first introduced, she was quite a bit older and far more experienced in everything but crime-fighting than Dick Grayson.

[Badou]

Then why hasn't Babs done anything other than standard superhero stuff since she became Batgirl again?

It's also a false equivalency that Babs has to be in the wheelchair as Oracle. She could keep the role and the use of her legs; the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Well I think that is just how DC wants to use Batgirl for now, but the Simone run to the Burnside run are very different takes on the same character. So it isn't like she has been a flatline. I'd love to see more chances and weird things with her stories, but DC doesn't like doing that for a lot of their characters. Like more stories about her and Supergirl teaming up. There was that one Annual were she and Supergirl and some of the other Batman and Superman family went off into space to fight Mongul. I enjoy stories like that.

If she isn't in the wheelchair as Oracle then why remove her from Batigrl? It is taking away one of the strongest female IPs in comics from her character and giving her a lesser one. As popular as Nightwing is it will never be as popular as Robin. The only reason to do this would be so you can give Cass or Steph the Batgirl identity because you like them more than Barbara as Batgirl. Maybe if Batwoman wasn't taken that might come closer to Batgirl in popularity, but even that is a lesser IP.

I dont get this one at all. Babs *has* to be mature as Oracle? Because tech experts are always stoic old people, right?

I think so. One of the big arguments you see with people that dislike her as Batgirl want her to be more mature like when she was Oracle. So if they wrote Oracle as being immature and inexperienced I think those same people would complain, maybe even more so, because they have a very specific vision of what Oracle should be.

[Ascended]

Well I think that is just how DC wants to use Batgirl for now, but the Simone run to the Burnside run are very different takes on the same character.

And yet both runs, though wildly different in tone, both did the same old superhero vigilante thing with the character. The most original thing either run did was introduce a villain who was a cross dresser. Or transgender, I forget which it was.

If she isn't in the wheelchair as Oracle then why remove her from Batigrl?

Because as Batgirl she's one of countless vigilantes and offers nothing unique to the industry. As Oracle she opens the door for cyber-based narratives that no one else in the Big 2 comes close to.

It is taking away one of the strongest female IPs in comics

I feel like that's a pretty big overstatement. Among the general public there's a knowledge that a "Batgirl" exists, but that's not saying very much. Batgirl isn't one of the strongest IP's out there, much less on of the strongest female ones. Hell, Kamala Khan is a bigger, stronger IP and she's only been around a few years.

The only reason to do this would be so you can give Cass or Steph the Batgirl identity because you like them more than Barbara as Batgirl.

Honestly? I dont like Steph at all and while I like Cass, I'm not a super huge fan. I'd rather see Babs back as Oracle because Batgirl says, does, and offers nothing that I cannot find anywhere else. Oracle was a much more important role for Gotham and the wider DCU, and the only time Babs ever mattered on any level was as Oracle.

And let's not forget that while everyone is getting crazy excited about how progressive a all female team would be over at Marvel (both in comics and film) the BoP were doing it twenty years ago, and by and large doing it better than all the attempts that have come since.

Plus I really hate re-treading stuff because of nostalgia and I see no reason for Babs being Batgirl again beyond that sole factor. Cass and Steph both had much loved runs and the BoP was successful. The only reason to makes Babs Batgirl again was to satisfy a segment of older fans, and we hate everything and bitch no matter what regardless.

I think so. One of the big arguments you see with people that dislike her as Batgirl want her to be more mature like when she was Oracle. So if they wrote Oracle as being immature and inexperienced I think those same people would complain, maybe even more so, because they have a very specific vision of what Oracle should be.

Oh dont get me wrong. I want Babs to be older and experienced regardless of her role. As much fun as Burnside was, that wasn't Babs to me, that was just a quirky new character using the name. But my point is that the majority of technology leaders in the world, like Zuckerberg, are all young people. So Oracle could very well be written as a young and quirky Millennial and it'd still fit just fine.

[Frontier]

Just because you feel it hasn't been realized doesn't mean that it isn't true. I believe she has more utility as Batgirl than Oracle and I can't see how it could be the other way around.

Who's to say it couldn't? Just because she didn't wear tights or swing around rooftops doesn't mean you can't tell quite a few different stories with Batgirl.

But lets look back. What Oracle story was so great and gave her massive amounts of development in the years before the New 52? Her romance with Nightwing? I can't think of anything that comes close to what Burnside was in terms of experimenting with the character. I get people enjoyed her as Oracle but I think they forget just how static she was in that she didn't really develop or change. All the development was pushed to Cass, Step, Dick, or Jim Gordon in the stories she was mostly involved in.

I would say her relationships with the Batgirls and the Birds of Prey gave her a lot of development, and her relationship with Dick, as she became a mentor for Cass and Steph and part of a strong team of women with the Birds.

But Barbara was now younger than she had ever been in the comics. So I think it is fine to experiment with writing her as being much younger since she was. The Burnside run was very popular even if people think it went on too long. The thing is that if they want to start writing her as more mature they can. Simone's Batgirl was pretty mature, but it doesn't work the other way. If she was Oracle she is limited in how they can use her and show her.

But shouldn't the ideal be for more character consistency? It just seems like writers and DC can't make up their minds what they want Batgirl to be, which I'm not sure I care for compared to the more clearer and solid Oracle identity.

I feel like that's a pretty big overstatement. Among the general public there's a knowledge that a "Batgirl" exists, but that's not saying very much. Batgirl isn't one of the strongest IP's out there, much less on of the strongest female ones. Hell, Kamala Khan is a bigger, stronger IP and she's only been around a few years.

I think that's underestimating the Batgirl name.

I think when most people think of major female DC heroes, be they comic fans or the general public, Batgirl will probably come up pretty quickly and has a long storied history under multiple women in the comics and as Barbara Gordon in other media.

Like, Batgirl's been in pretty much every Batman cartoon, is one of the most prominent heroes in DC Super Hero Girls, headlined her own female-oriented animated web-series long before DC Super Hero Girls was even a thing, etc.

So I don't think she's a weak IP.