Barbara Gordon - as Batgirl or as Oracle?

[Ascended]

I think that's underestimating the Batgirl name.

I think when most people think of major female DC heroes, be they comic fans or the general public, Batgirl will probably come up pretty quickly and has a long storied history under multiple women in the comics and as Barbara Gordon in other media.

Like, Batgirl's been in pretty much every Batman cartoon, is one of the most prominent heroes in DC Super Hero Girls, headlined her own female-oriented animated web-series long before DC Super Hero Girls was even a thing, etc.

So I don't think she's a weak IP.

She's not a weak IP, but I don't believe she's a major one.

You're right that her name will come up in discussion, but so will Hawkman and he's not exactly a major IP either, despite his long and storied history.

[Frontier]

She's not a weak IP, but I don't believe she's a major one.

You're right that her name will come up in discussion, but so will Hawkman and he's not exactly a major IP either, despite his long and storied history.

Even as a Hawkman fan I would say Batgirl on her own is probably 10x more popular and recognizable then Hawkman is.

But I guess one difference between the two is that Hawkman is his own thing while Batgirl is, at the end of the day, still an extension of the Batman franchise. But I'd say she's still fairly popular in-spite of that, much like Supergirl is.

[Ascended]

Even as a Hawkman fan I would say Batgirl on her own is probably 10x more popular and recognizable then Hawkman is.

But I guess one difference between the two is that Hawkman is his own thing while Batgirl is, at the end of the day, still an extension of the Batman franchise. But I'd say she's still fairly popular in-spite of that, much like Supergirl is.

It's hard to say, really. But yeah, maybe I'm not giving the IP as much credit as it's due. But if I'm not, I doubt I'm underestimating it all *that* much.

If you show a picture of Hawkman to the average person, they'll probably recognize who it is. They won't know anything more than the name but they'll know that a dude with big wings and a bare chest is Hawkman. Likewise, the average person will recognize that a girl in a bat suit is Batgirl, but will they know her real name or anything more than she's Batgirl? Probably not.

You're right that Babs' Batgirl has been in a lot of animated stuff, but it's never been her stuff; it's been Batman's, and the non-Bat stuff like Super Hero Girls is a team thing where Babs is only one part of a much larger whole and doesn't usually pull any more screen time than Diana, Harley, Kara, Bumblebee, etc.

People know Batgirl. Not saying they dont. But I dont think she has much of a profile and is usually just known as the female derivative.

[Godlike13]

As I recall the Burnside stuff happened because sales were dropping fast, so less "this character is so stable we can afford to experiment" and more "if we don't experiment the book will be cancelled." Doesn't strike me as a great argument for Babs' success, unless I'm remembering things wrong (which is totally possible).

And Oracle could easily see the same kind of experimentation and shifts in tone.

A lot of people seem to think the role is more limited than it is. You can do plenty with Oracle, with just as much variation as Batgirl. From political-thriller to fun Austin Powers/Charlie's Angels romps to post-modern cyber hack. The only limitation is what a person can imagine, and in today's world the idea that there's nothing to do or say with Oracle just strikes me as short sighted. No offense to anyone meant, you do you, but if I can see a dozen different ways to make Oracle work then a pro should be able to see a hundred.

Oracle could, but nevertheless didn't. Its not about what they could do, but what they would do.

[Ascended]

If the point of the discussion is which role we prefer, there's no criteria that's off limits.

I like the role of Oracle better for Babs. Batgirls are a lot easier to come by than Oracles and Oracle is a crazy cool concept that only needs the slightest modernization.

Ideally I'd like to see the roles merged. Bagirl would benefit from some next level cyber spy/thriller/NSA/hacker/Matrix sh*t, it'd give her a solidly defined niche within the Bat family, while also making her matter to the wider universe again. No says "Oh! If only we had just one more powerless vigilante to kick this Crisis in the face!" but Oracle has been directly responsible for saving the world a few times. Plus; Batgirl's iconic "weapon" could be drones, which would be fun.

[Frontier]

If you show a picture of Hawkman to the average person, they'll probably recognize who it is. They won't know anything more than the name but they'll know that a dude with big wings and a bare chest is Hawkman. Likewise, the average person will recognize that a girl in a bat suit is Batgirl, but will they know her real name or anything more than she's Batgirl? Probably not.

I think more people are probably likely to know who Barbara Gordon is then they know Hawkman is Carter Hall/Katar Hol, because of the Commissioner Gordon connection and how prevalent she is in media.

Just like the Robin in most people's mind is Dick Grayson.

You're right that Babs' Batgirl has been in a lot of animated stuff, but it's never been her stuff; it's been Batman's, and the non-Bat stuff like Super Hero Girls is a team thing where Babs is only one part of a much larger whole and doesn't usually pull any more screen time than Diana, Harley, Kara, Bumblebee, etc.

It's not necessarily solo stuff but it's media where she's very prevalent in it and play a major role, which is as important in my opinion.

I would say Babs' screentime and focus in DCSHG is on par with Diana, Kara, and Harley, so pretty much 80% likely to have a major role or get to do something important in any given episode, movie, or book.

[lemonpeace]

I like the idea of Barbara being Oracle more than being Batgirl. It was a natural progression and mature turn for the character, the idea that she's Batgirl again is fine but it somewhat feels like regression for me. I think there could have been a way to have her be an able-bodied Oracle, maybe have her take on the name once she joins the ranks of the League? Iunno, I prefer Oracle.

[Killerbee911]

Even as a Hawkman fan I would say Batgirl on her own is probably 10x more popular and recognizable then Hawkman is.

But I guess one difference between the two is that Hawkman is his own thing while Batgirl is, at the end of the day, still an extension of the Batman franchise. But I'd say she's still fairly popular in-spite of that, much like Supergirl is.

I had this long post type about how she is popular but Hawkman is his individual thing and the long run that is better and how her popularity tied how much you can sprinkle in the more popular character and his setting BUT then I went look at her monthly numbers and Batgirl 29 sold 35,356 copies and for that month It put her between Deadpool and Iron man. I think you have a point about her being individually popular.

That said I think developing thing as clear unique properties are still best in the long run and Wally West is the perfect example of why you develop legacy characters into their own things,Whatever popularity she gains from being Batgirl a now generic role isn't worth the "Hey we need a new Batgirl" "I think I can do something different never seen before with Batgirl" " I am writer and I was really big fan of Spoiler or Cass as batgirl I think I am going to make that change". Oracle is unique thing specifically attuned Barbara Gordon her unique IP, Batgirl IP tied to very success Batman IP which helps sales but that means stuff " like an editor not liking idea of Batgirl being a thing" or "editor saying Batman family is to big we need to bring down the core characters and it is numbers game of who stays around". The era of line refreshes it is better to be Nightwing or Red Hood, rather than Batgirl or Robin.

[Armor of God]

It's hard to say, really. But yeah, maybe I'm not giving the IP as much credit as it's due. But if I'm not, I doubt I'm underestimating it all *that* much.

If you show a picture of Hawkman to the average person, they'll probably recognize who it is. They won't know anything more than the name but they'll know that a dude with big wings and a bare chest is Hawkman. Likewise, the average person will recognize that a girl in a bat suit is Batgirl, but will they know her real name or anything more than she's Batgirl? Probably not.

You're right that Babs' Batgirl has been in a lot of animated stuff, but it's never been her stuff; it's been Batman's, and the non-Bat stuff like Super Hero Girls is a team thing where Babs is only one part of a much larger whole and doesn't usually pull any more screen time than Diana, Harley, Kara, Bumblebee, etc.

People know Batgirl. Not saying they dont. But I dont think she has much of a profile and is usually just known as the female derivative.

I dont think that applies to Cass and Bette at all. Even you if you give a layman a picture of them then they still wont recognize them as Batgirl. The only obvious alternative is Steph but she was Batgirl for a meagre 2 years and none of them have any mainstream media profile. Babs however does so the default Batgirl look is the Babs look.

[SiegePerilous02]

If you show a picture of Hawkman to the average person, they'll probably recognize who it is. They won't know anything more than the name but they'll know that a dude with big wings and a bare chest is Hawkman. Likewise, the average person will recognize that a girl in a bat suit is Batgirl, but will they know her real name or anything more than she's Batgirl? Probably not.

You're right that Babs' Batgirl has been in a lot of animated stuff, but it's never been her stuff; it's been Batman's, and the non-Bat stuff like Super Hero Girls is a team thing where Babs is only one part of a much larger whole and doesn't usually pull any more screen time than Diana, Harley, Kara, Bumblebee, etc.

I think you're overestimating Hawkman quite a bit. I don't think the average person (as in, doesn't read comics) knows or cares that Hawkman exists. Hawkgirl might be a different story, but that's due to a cartoon that ended over a decade ago and people are unlikely to remember even her name.

Batgirl at least has the Adam West show and various animated projects. Even if it's all tied to Batman, that's significantly more than the Hawks get. The odds of them knowing her civilian name is Barbara Gordon is slimmer, but by far more folks in the mainstream will know that name before Steph Brown or Cass Cain. Same with Robin and Dick Grayson. The number of people who know that Robin is Dick is way smaller than the ones who know Batman is Bruce, but odds are he's the name that will pop up for the people that do know.

[Ascended]

I think more people are probably likely to know who Barbara Gordon is then they know Hawkman is Carter Hall/Katar Hol, because of the Commissioner Gordon connection and how prevalent she is in media.

Just like the Robin in most people's mind is Dick Grayson.

Im sure that's true, but damn few people are going to know who Barbara Gordon is, even if more people know that than know who Carter Hall is. Hell, I doubt anyone knows who Carter Hall is at all, and some people would at least know Babs' name, but I dont think the difference is all that big.

My point is that both characters have a small profile among the general public, to the point that their classic visuals will be recognized by the average layman, but neither of them have much beyond that.

Hawkman isn't a big player by any metric, but you still see him in background images of the League on t-shirts and other League related merchandise, or cameo's in cartoons like Young Justice and TTGO! And he's been on the edge of cultural awareness for a long time, going back to Super Friends at least, so there's a long line of appearances that've sunk into the cultural subconscious, even if it's just minor appearances. Enough to make his visual recognizable, if nothing else. I think Batgirl gets more than that (she does have speaking lines usually) but I dont think she's actually that much more recognizable, and most of the reason why she is comes down to a pair of pointy ears on her head. After all, for most people it doesn't matter if Babs gets more screen time than Hawkman or some other C-lister, because those people aren't watching the shows or using the products anyway. It's just stuff they walk past in Target, or flip past while channel surfing.

However, whether or not Babs is more well known than another C-lister is besides the point of the thread, and Im sorry I derailed it.

[Ascended]

I think there could have been a way to have her be an able-bodied Oracle, maybe have her take on the name once she joins the ranks of the League? Iunno, I prefer Oracle.

Which brings up the question; how important is the chair?

Now me, I like it when a hero occasionally suffers a setback or loss that can't be ignored six months later. Fighting evil is dangerous work, and sometimes there's a cost. Hands are lost, Gwens are thrown off buildings, you know? And I think seeing the hero rise above that and keep fighting the good fight is damn inspiring. And Babs becoming Oracle was pretty big, as far as that goes, and as others have said, it had an impact on a demographic who don't usually get to see themselves reflected in superhero media. If you really want to branch out and reach new audiences, you could do worse. But does Babs need to be in the chair to be Oracle, or could she combine that narrative aesthetic with standard superheroics? I dont think the chair is necessary, myself, but even in this thread we've seen people talk about how Babs rising above TKJ impacted them on a deep emotional level.

[oasis1313]

Which brings up the question; how important is the chair?

Now me, I like it when a hero occasionally suffers a setback or loss that can't be ignored six months later. Fighting evil is dangerous work, and sometimes there's a cost. Hands are lost, Gwens are thrown off buildings, you know? And I think seeing the hero rise above that and keep fighting the good fight is damn inspiring. And Babs becoming Oracle was pretty big, as far as that goes, and as others have said, it had an impact on a demographic who don't usually get to see themselves reflected in superhero media. If you really want to branch out and reach new audiences, you could do worse. But does Babs need to be in the chair to be Oracle, or could she combine that narrative aesthetic with standard superheroics? I dont think the chair is necessary, myself, but even in this thread we've seen people talk about how Babs rising above TKJ impacted them on a deep emotional level.

I felt Oracle was a great idea--it's all about making lemonade out of lemons. I didn't like the Killing Joke (more pandering to a "superstar" writer), but Barbara dusted herself off and kept fighting. If she HAD to become a combatant again, I would have preferred a journey for her to overcome it--instead of PRESTO!!!!: She's suddenly walking and fighting etc etc etc again.

[kjn]

Which brings up the question; how important is the chair?

For her function as Oracle, not at all.

As a narrative symbol, I'd say it is not replacable. It serves several functions. First is of course as a distinguishing element that makes her instantly recognisable on the page—all superheroes have those. It serves as a meaningful symbol of her past, both as having been Batgirl, her past trauma, and her having overcome it. It externalises the past trauma from both Babs and from the other characters. Babs does not need to dwell on the past since the wheelchair reminds the reader of it. Other characters can be seen caring for Babs by doing small assistive things or by simply accepting Babs in her chair rather than being shown feeling guilt.

I think it's no surprise that Mairghread Scott used the chair in Batgirl #27 as a symbol to show the difference in thinking about disability between Babs and James.

Batgirl (2016-) 027-011.jpg

[ConnorHawke]

To respond to the original question: Oracle. She is the counterpart to Nightwing.

The depth of character is strong, particularly in its building upon a character that already had some depth.
The mentor role she played for other characters was great.
I see no reason why she can't go back to the role. It was far more effective than running around punching people.