Does Wonder Woman play second fiddle to Superman?

[brettc1]

Or, one of us "superfanatics" (I thought name-calling was frowned upon on these boards) could just point out that

A) the sun-towing is Wonder Woman's best-ever feat by such a large margin it falls into the same "too-high-an-outlier-to-count" category as does Superman's galaxy-sneezing feat (i.e. something they never repeated)

B) the very next issue after towing the sun, Wonder Woman gets knocked out by the mortal villain Hypnota.

C) both of those Wonder Woman stories were written by Marston, so inconsistency is a hallmark of the character going back to her own creator

D) Pre-Crisis Superman was consistently, utterly, uber-ridiculous in power scale.

The sun is an average-size star. Superman could and did move giant stars out of their orbits just to consume extraterrestrial threats:



This was normal for Pre-COIE Supes.

The point is, even before Diana's "Dark Age" (1947-1987), she was written inconsistently in terms of physical power. Wonder Woman plays second fiddle to Superman the same way Superman plays second fiddle to Batman: popularity determines outcome more often than outcome determines popularity.

Wonder Woman needs to find a niche that DOESN'T put her in direct competition with the very few characters that are more popular than her.

This is a pissing contest she can't win.

There's no inconsistency with her being knocked out if Hypnota hit her from behind. Marston had established that one of her weaknesses [and for all Amazons] was a blow to the back of the head.

If popularity is what determines the outcome, as of the last few years Superman is in trouble LOL. Because when it comes to move, the outcome does indeed determine the popularity.

[brettc1]

Which was a terrible call on Zack Snyder’s part. But JL was already filming before WW’s stellar reception took hold. There was no time to course correct, not that I’m defending WB or Snyder mind you. They should’ve pulled the plug on JL after BvS flopped.

There was no excuse for it anyway. Even measured against BVS and it's own script, the fight between the JL and Superman makes no sense. In the first she is strong enough to rope and hold Doomsday, and in the second she is shown to have super-speed in the order of 2500 feet per second [about 1400 mph, the speed of a bullet].

[brettc1]

Or, one of us "superfanatics" (I thought name-calling was frowned upon on these boards) could just point out that

A) the sun-towing is Wonder Woman's best-ever feat by such a large margin it falls into the same "too-high-an-outlier-to-count" category as does Superman's galaxy-sneezing feat (i.e. something they never repeated)

The sun is an average-size star. Superman could and did move giant stars out of their orbits just to consume extraterrestrial threats:

Just in case anyone is following - not only did this sun moving story of Superman's happen AFTER Wonder Woman had been downgraded, the mass of a giant star like the one shown is often actually LESS than that of our own sun. Size and mass don't always equate, and the star shown here could only have a mass of 0.3 - 0.8 times that of our local star.

Science

[tweyandt711]

Her powers were second fiddle in the Justice League movie and her vulnerability compared to Superman in the comics is also second fiddle. But WW now has a twice monthly book which drives up sales and profits each year compared to the old monthly title and the all too brief time of Sensation Comics during the New 52. And also not having a dating history with Superman was also lost with Rebirth. What could be done with that is to say that for a time WW dated Clark who then decided on dating and marrying Lois Lane. The Superman/WW romance was something that should not have been retconned out of existence but instead portrayed as a past event, a time before Clark settled on Lois as the Love of His Life, could have been competition there between them while retconning the Olympic storyline as an illusion and a lie under Rucka was a mistake, a big Mistake along with imprisoning the Amazons on Paradise Island and barring WW from visiting it. Now, the new and hopefully permanent female writer on WW will fix this mess.

[tweyandt711]

I very so much agree with you. Doomsday was netted with strength nearly equal to Superman in BVS movie and she outraced bullets in JL movie.
Power wise in the comics, she is second fiddle and I hope that is fixed in the future. The current Female writer can undo some of the Mistakes made by Rucka and his successors. Hope this writer is permanent, i.e., two or more years commitment to the book. At least it is twice monthly though Sensation being brought back would help as it had unique format and stories.

[tweyandt711]

True. The only thing that approaches the over the top sycophantic worship DC has for the Bat franchise is how Marvel deals with the X-titles. Wolverine is practically a bat-God in his own right. I loved the X-men in the 80s and early 90s, but now they’re just EVERYWHERE. You can’t even follow the stories without buying at least six different books. Even if I wanted to jump back on board, I could never afford it.

Comics are expensive these days with multiple titles of characters and while I would gladly buy a weekly WW, I can't always handle all the issues of the titles I'm interested in with JL having four books per month, WW two, Batman four, and Supes two. I have to ration my limited funds even if I'm buying discounted books online. It may be cheaper on some books to wait for the TPBs and hardcovers to come out. And yes, WW should be able to fly and other characters need building up and the 32 page comic is too small. We need 48 or 64 pagers like the old days for $4.99 in the 48 page and $6.99 for the 64 page books. Cheaper per page that way.

[brettc1]

Regarding her invulnerability- she might not have quite The skin density of a Krytonian, but her bracers can block Darkseid’s eye blasts.

[Stanlos]

Or, one of us "superfanatics" (I thought name-calling was frowned upon on these boards) could just point out that

A) the sun-towing is Wonder Woman's best-ever feat by such a large margin it falls into the same "too-high-an-outlier-to-count" category as does Superman's galaxy-sneezing feat (i.e. something they never repeated)

B) the very next issue after towing the sun, Wonder Woman gets knocked out by the mortal villain Hypnota.

C) both of those Wonder Woman stories were written by Marston, so inconsistency is a hallmark of the character going back to her own creator

D) Pre-Crisis Superman was consistently, utterly, uber-ridiculous in power scale.

The sun is an average-size star. Superman could and did move giant stars out of their orbits just to consume extraterrestrial threats:



This was normal for Pre-COIE Supes.

The point is, even before Diana's "Dark Age" (1947-1987), she was written inconsistently in terms of physical power. Wonder Woman plays second fiddle to Superman the same way Superman plays second fiddle to Batman: popularity determines outcome more often than outcome determines popularity.

Wonder Woman needs to find a niche that DOESN'T put her in direct competition with the very few characters that are more popular than her.

This is a pissing contest she can't win.

Your post pretends that there is some science or rule for 'averaging' or otherwise estimating levels/magnitudes of abilities. There is not. If various battleboard participants are an indicator any method they use always has exceptions and deviations when inconvenient.

That WW was designed to marry femininity and dominant force is easily researched and reported on by multiple historians. So truly even she had no stories we would know where she is in terms of relative power as it is a part of her design.

Back in the day, towing suns or pushing universes with her bare hands are things that she has done.

I don't think that reducing her power levels or removing her powers (and there ARE plenty that have been removed as is) is any more valid for than pretending that Superman and Captain Marvel don't have top tier superspeed because speed is Flash's thing.

The best course of action is to celebrate her deal and stop crapping on her.

She was designed to be 'invincible yet human'. One of the best things about the Post Crisis reboot is the work that Berger and Perez did to define her deal so that could be the case and still be practical. This was further enhanced during Byrne's run where we learn about the properties of her body prior to the bracelets traits being involved.

Nothing about WW is 'simple' and that makes for storytelling opportunities if a scribe is willing.

[Miles To Go]

The Superman/WW romance was something that should not have been retconned out of existence but instead portrayed as a past event, a time before Clark settled on Lois as the Love of His Life, could have been competition there between them

It would have been out-of-character for Diana to compete with Lois. She's a compassionate and respectful woman. She isn't a homewrecker, that was the biggest mistake made with the post-crisis version where she continued to pine for Clark long after he was happily married. Her Rebirth incarnation admitting she didn't know the difference between romantic and easy love is an epiphany she should have had as a character long before Flashpoint so she could have properly moved on from Clark.

The Death of Superman tie-in digital series, based off the timeline of the animated movies, handled their break-up much better...a simple matter of Diana realising they were better off as friends because Clark prioritised Lois' well-being above hers, and always would.

[brettc1]

Her powers were second fiddle in the Justice League movie and her vulnerability compared to Superman in the comics is also second fiddle. But WW now has a twice monthly book which drives up sales and profits each year compared to the old monthly title and the all too brief time of Sensation Comics during the New 52. And also not having a dating history with Superman was also lost with Rebirth. What could be done with that is to say that for a time WW dated Clark who then decided on dating and marrying Lois Lane. The Superman/WW romance was something that should not have been retconned out of existence but instead portrayed as a past event, a time before Clark settled on Lois as the Love of His Life, could have been competition there between them while retconning the Olympic storyline as an illusion and a lie under Rucka was a mistake, a big Mistake along with imprisoning the Amazons on Paradise Island and barring WW from visiting it. Now, the new and hopefully permanent female writer on WW will fix this mess.

What I find interesting is the preconception that Clark would be the one dumping Diana for Lois, instead of the idea that Diana would dump Clark for Steve.

Which is exactly why so manyt WW fans disliked the pairing. Even when it ends, it has to be about putting Superman in the driver’s seat.

Kind of the point of this thread, actually.

[Angleman70]

DC will always keep Batman & Superman on their priority list. It’s disgusting but true.

[LordUltimus]

DC will always keep Batman & Superman on their priority list. It’s disgusting but true.

I wouldn't mind that if WW was also on that list.

[Sacred Knight]

What I find interesting is the preconception that Clark would be the one dumping Diana for Lois, instead of the idea that Diana would dump Clark for Steve.

Which is exactly so meant WW fans disliked the pairing. Even when it ends, it has to be about putting Superman in the driver’s seat.

Kind of the point of this thread, actually.

Its the popularity angle again. Lois is hugely popular, so there's a natural draw to the idea that in any hypothetical situation of Superman dating Wonder Woman then dating Lois, that its the more popular love interest that is the catalyst why. In this case that's Lois by a country mile, as Steve has never been popular. He's been more often than not a running joke if not outright forgotten entirely. Another factor is the history of said relationships. Lois and Clark have a hell of a lot more mileage to it in practice than Diana and Steve. You put Diana in as a wedge between that dynamic and there's a legit fight, Diana doesn't outright overshadow Lois and the Lois and Clark dynamic, and Diana's not that much more popular than Lois, (if she is at all, there's an argument to be made that she's not). Now you look at the other side of the coin. You put Clark in as a wedge between the Diana/Steve dynamic? Superman engulfs Steve because Superman is light years more popular than Steve will ever be, and his and Diana's dynamic doesn't have the history behind it to make up for that. Those are the key differences.

So this particular aspect is actually less about Superman in the driver's seat over WW, but Lois far more in the driver's seat over Steve, and the L&C dynamic as a whole in the driver's seat as compared to D&S. Its a different application of the idea that someone else has already pointed out: popularity determines outcome more often than outcome determines popularity.

[SiegePerilous02]

DC will always keep Batman & Superman on their priority list. It’s disgusting but true.

Superman's on their priority list right now? Are they fast tracking a new movie or something, which they didn't show any signs of doing even back before the DCEU's reputation became more and more toxic?

Batman definitely is. Not entirely without reason, but it still kind of sucks. Even for people that love Batman.

I wouldn't mind that if WW was also on that list.

Ideally, they'd keep the Superman output around where it is if not a bit more(with better quality), dial back the Bat-stuff to that level, and consistently raise WW to it. Then the Trinity would be balanced.

And put a lot more effort into everybody else as well.

[brettc1]

Its the popularity angle again. Lois is hugely popular, so there's a natural draw to the idea that in any hypothetical situation of Superman dating Wonder Woman then dating Lois, that its the more popular love interest that is the catalyst why. In this case that's Lois by a country mile, as Steve has never been popular. He's been more often than not a running joke if not outright forgotten entirely. Another factor is the history of said relationships. Lois and Clark have a hell of a lot more mileage to it in practice than Diana and Steve. You put Diana in as a wedge between that dynamic and there's a legit fight, Diana doesn't outright overshadow Lois and the Lois and Clark dynamic, and Diana's not that much more popular than Lois, (if she is at all, there's an argument to be made that she's not). Now you look at the other side of the coin. You put Clark in as a wedge between the Diana/Steve dynamic? Superman engulfs Steve because Superman is light years more popular than Steve will ever be, and his and Diana's dynamic doesn't have the history behind it to make up for that. Those are the key differences.

So this particular aspect is actually less about Superman in the driver's seat over WW, but Lois far more in the driver's seat over Steve, and the L&C dynamic as a whole in the driver's seat as compared to D&S. Its a different application of the idea that someone else has already pointed out: popularity determines outcome more often than outcome determines popularity.

Well not surprisingly I don't agree.

Whichever way you spin it, the relationship is not about Superman and Wonder Woman as equals. Your own statements above confirm that. The logic of your argument supports that it always going to be more about Superman, and the publishing history backs that up.

Now of course Steve is much more well recognised. Thanks to Chris Pine and the movie he's been upgraded from the joke, in the same way Lois evolved from her silver age "out to marry Superman" image.

Diana's star cinematically is on the rise. But the books remain a more traditional market. It's a catch 22. The publisher's want more female readers, but seem unwilling to invest heavily in them until after they prove they will start buying. So WW's book sales languish for lack of consistent high quality and publisher's use that as evidence she can't sell as high numbers.