Does Wonder Woman play second fiddle to Superman?

[Guy_McNichts]

Simply put: Yes, she does.
Chalk it up to lack of interest by the creators, perceived marketability, or some more sinister reason, the truth is--more often than not--Superman will always take precedent over Diana in the comics whether it makes sense or not.

In the grand scheme of things, all of DC is second fiddle to Superman and Batman. And sometimes even Superman takes a backseat to the almighty Bat.

It is frustrating in regard to Wonder Woman, who is supposed to be--on paper anyway--on equal footing with her fellow "Trinity" corners. There is also something troubling/depressing that a character designed to be the best woman is forever presented as far, far below the best man. Look no further than the Justice League movie which went out of its own way to establish that Diana--and the entire League--is dirt compared to Superman.

Speaking of, DC's tendency to periodically re-hash stories tailored to enforce the PECKING ORDER does not help and is, frankly, insufferable at this point.
How many variations of "Superman is dead or MIA or turned evil and ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, neither individually nor collectively as a group, can POSSIBLY fill the void of his absence" have we seen? Or, for that matter, how many times have we seen the ol' "Batman can take out the ENTIRE Justice League by himself if he needed to" regurgitated?

With the success of Wonder Woman's movie--and Aquaman, as his movie looks like it's going to do well--Warner/DC would really benefit from no longer treating their comics like "BATMAN...Superman..........................an d the rest."

[mathew101281]

First I think D C raised the levels of far too many of there characters with regards to the powers and that has resulted in Superman
becoming just another Waldo in the crowd.
Second George Perez raised the powers and abilities of Diana back in 1987 and since Dan Didio took over have diligently focused on
taking her down a peg more and more to the point now the movies and comics have no clue if he is allowed to fly or (frankly) if she can.

That’s just factually incorrect. Pre Crisis Wonderwoman lassoed the sun. It makes no sense for Wonderwoman to be some mid tier Superhero. This is a character who pretty regularly fights gods and other Uber powerful mythic beings. You can always tell how powerful a hero was meant to be by the kinds of villains in their rogues gallery.

[SiegePerilous02]

The whole DCU plays second fiddle to Batgod.

Pretty much.

I am happy for all the threads to be consolidated.

That'd be great to get them quarantined in one place. Although then it might be the only board having a thread dedicated to complaining about a character outside the franchise. Because sometimes it seems Wonder Woman is a property with nothing of value in it whatsoever, hence why the only thing people seem to ever discuss is the inconsistency of her flight and the lead character of another franchise (Superman, who is not a regular part of hers) is bringing her down, sometimes with tenuous logic. Even in the discussion threads for new issues.

I love the WW franchise, so I'd like to think we don't have to drag in another character and tear him down to have something to discuss. It just highlights how DC is doing a great load of nothing with her mythos. And they don't regularly do much with his either, it's mostly all Batman, all the time.

[The Kid]

Yes, she generally plays second fiddle to Superman and Batman

[My Two Cents]

Check out WW THE COMPLETE HISTORY, THE GREAT WOMEN SUPERHEROES, or any of the comics history tomes out there and you will learn that Perez did not raise her levels. He moved closer to giving them their due.

In other words he raised her powers and abilities back in 1987.
Batman was always a great detective, but it took Dennis O'Neal and Neal Adams
to showcase it in the 70's.... to show he was not the joke he became in the sixties,
Sure Bruce always had those traits and it was D C Comics who were at fault for
Allowing Batman to mirror the joke that the television series became after season one.
The same can be said for Wonder Woman, whom Marston created to be (probably)
even more Powerful than Superman at the time. But as time marched on, Superman
got more and more powerful and Wonder Woman got more and more dependent of
things like Invisible plane and magic lasso's until crisis came along and D C
flipped the switch and took Clark down a few notches and raised others (along with Diana).
But since than with a few silly events and than bad editorial across the board and some writers
not bothering to research the characters they were writing about, we now have a D C Universe
that is in such a mess that they are hoping Geoff Johns can (at the very least) with Dooms Day Clock
get all the ducks in line again, so they can move forward with a better foundation of the D C Universe
with regards to what each characters history is and what there powers and abilities are moving forward.

[starlight25]

In other words he raised her powers and abilities back in 1987.
Batman was always a great detective, but it took Dennis O'Neal and Neal Adams
to showcase it in the 70's.... to show he was not the joke he became in the sixties,
Sure Bruce always had those traits and it was D C Comics who were at fault for
Allowing Batman to mirror the joke that the television series became after season one.
The same can be said for Wonder Woman, whom Marston created to be (probably)
even more Powerful than Superman at the time. But as time marched on, Superman
got more and more powerful and Wonder Woman got more and more dependent of
things like Invisible plane and magic lasso's until crisis came along and D C
flipped the switch and took Clark down a few notches and raised others (along with Diana).
But since than with a few silly events and than bad editorial across the board and some writers
not bothering to research the characters they were writing about, we now have a D C Universe
that is in such a mess that they are hoping Geoff Johns can (at the very least) with Dooms Day Clock
get all the ducks in line again, so they can move forward with a better foundation of the D C Universe
with regards to what each characters history is and what there powers and abilities are moving forward.

Isn't geof johns is one of the reasons why she is nerfed, oneof the reasons she became warrior woman that needs gear for everything and likes punching first and ask later? Is there any hope for the future?

[Stanlos]

In other words he raised her powers and abilities back in 1987.
Batman was always a great detective, but it took Dennis O'Neal and Neal Adams
to showcase it in the 70's.... to show he was not the joke he became in the sixties,
Sure Bruce always had those traits and it was D C Comics who were at fault for
Allowing Batman to mirror the joke that the television series became after season one.
The same can be said for Wonder Woman, whom Marston created to be (probably)
even more Powerful than Superman at the time. But as time marched on, Superman
got more and more powerful and Wonder Woman got more and more dependent of
things like Invisible plane and magic lasso's until crisis came along and D C
flipped the switch and took Clark down a few notches and raised others (along with Diana).
But since than with a few silly events and than bad editorial across the board and some writers
not bothering to research the characters they were writing about, we now have a D C Universe
that is in such a mess that they are hoping Geoff Johns can (at the very least) with Dooms Day Clock
get all the ducks in line again, so they can move forward with a better foundation of the D C Universe
with regards to what each characters history is and what there powers and abilities are moving forward.

She was created to wield Dominant Force and to be, quote, invincible yet human. She is the only property at DC created with those concepts in mind so Supes and others getting more powerful doesn't really matter. I would argue that none of them have actually done anything that comes close to their bizarre and ridiculous golden age strength feats (though both have demonstrably better speed feats)

But even if we take the real world context and details out of discussion, one consistent component of Amazon culture prior to the bastardization of it with Flashpoint and 52 is the concept of eternal pursuit of excellence and self improvement. So Supes isn't the only character that gets more powerful over time. The nature of the Gods themselves and Amazon excellence mean WW does too (in story anyway) and I think the nature of divinities means something similar for Captain Marvel.

I think it is awful that Superman's deal gets crapped on where speed and Intelligence are concerned in the DCU. But I think it is equally crappy to try to diminish WW (and Cap).

There is no reason their deals cannot be fully celebrated.

[The True Detective]

Pretty much.



That'd be great to get them quarantined in one place. Although then it might be the only board having a thread dedicated to complaining about a character outside the franchise. Because sometimes it seems Wonder Woman is a property with nothing of value in it whatsoever, hence why the only thing people seem to ever discuss is the inconsistency of her flight and the lead character of another franchise (Superman, who is not a regular part of hers) is bringing her down, sometimes with tenuous logic. Even in the discussion threads for new issues.

I love the WW franchise, so I'd like to think we don't have to drag in another character and tear him down to have something to discuss. It just highlights how DC is doing a great load of nothing with her mythos. And they don't regularly do much with his either, it's mostly all Batman, all the time.

So... people having the audacity to mention how she plays 2nd fiddle to Superman, which she DOES (as does every character not named Batman) is somehow "tearing him down" yet you and others here are doing the same to Batman (even calling him the negative Batgod nickname) and that's supposed be OK because... reasons? And don't act like people in this forum don't complain about Batman a lot too, if anything Superman is way more liked here than Batman is. The Wonder Woman and Superman appreciation thread is way more active than the Wonder Woman and Batman thread.

[SiegePerilous02]

So... people having the audacity to mention how she plays 2nd fiddle to Superman, which she DOES (as does every character not named Batman) is somehow "tearing him down" yet you and others here are doing the same to Batman (even calling him the negative Batgod nickname) and that's supposed be OK because... reasons? And don't act like people in this forum don't complain about Batman a lot too, if anything Superman is way more liked here than Batman is. The Wonder Woman and Superman appreciation thread is way more active than the Wonder Woman and Batman thread.

That appreciation thread is devoted to their romance, which not everyone on here supports. Outside of that, there isn't always a lot of positive discussion about Superman going on here. Not everything is about shipping. This isn't his forum, so this isn't the place to have a lot of in depth talk about him period, but when it does, it's usually how she cannot fly because of him or that all the problems facing her franchise are somehow his fault when the DC franchises started to merge into a shared universe. Some of it is valid, because female characters in general across the big two have suffered a great deal and DC does prioritize Superman and Batman over others, some of it is not. Check out the archives. I'm not entirely convinced she's not (yet?) flying in the DCEU because of Superman because WB is running as far away from Superman as they can get plus Shazam and his family will likely fly, and in Snyder's JL Superman isn't the only one flying because J'onn is as well, and she's seen floating in Bendis's MOS mini. If DiDio wants to weaken her, it's not because he consistently gives a crap about Superman over her, it's something else.

Mentioning how DC favors Batman to the detriment of other properties (including Superman) is not bashing Batman, it is just pointing out reality. They definitely have historically favored Superman over other properties in the past, but they don't consistently do it anymore. They honestly publish enough Superman related material as is and Wonder Woman and other properties need a whole lot MORE, but Batman has way too much. Disliking the BatGod trope is not the same as disliking Batman as a whole, because most of us don't.

[starlight25]

That appreciation thread is devoted to their romance, which not everyone on here supports. Outside of that, there isn't always a lot of positive discussion about Superman going on here. Not everything is about shipping. This isn't his forum, so this isn't the place to have a lot of in depth talk about him period, but when it does, it's usually how she cannot fly because of him or that all the problems facing her franchise are somehow his fault when the DC franchises started to merge into a shared universe. Some of it is valid, because female characters in general across the big two have suffered a great deal and DC does prioritize Superman and Batman over others, some of it is not. Check out the archives. I'm not entirely convinced she's not (yet?) flying in the DCEU because of Superman because WB is running as far away from Superman as they can get plus Shazam and his family will likely fly, and in Snyder's JL Superman isn't the only one flying because J'onn is as well, and she's seen floating in Bendis's MOS mini. If DiDio wants to weaken her, it's not because he consistently gives a crap about Superman over her, it's something else.

Mentioning how DC favors Batman to the detriment of other properties (including Superman) is not bashing Batman, it is just pointing out reality. They definitely have historically favored Superman over other properties in the past, but they don't consistently do it anymore. They honestly publish enough Superman related material as is and Wonder Woman and other properties need a whole lot MORE, but Batman has way too much. Disliking the BatGod trope is not the same as disliking Batman as a whole, because most of us don't.

What is didio writing? What reason could he have to nerf her, and when did he do it? I don't remember him writing anything with WW in it recently. And another good question. Why john can fly in snyder's jl, but we don't know if WW can? Why is always her the one getting more nerfed?

[brettc1]

That’s just factually incorrect. Pre Crisis Wonderwoman lassoed the sun. It makes no sense for Wonderwoman to be some mid tier Superhero. This is a character who pretty regularly fights gods and other Uber powerful mythic beings. You can always tell how powerful a hero was meant to be by the kinds of villains in their rogues gallery.

Yes, but if you mention that to a super-fanatic you are likely to be hit with quotes about how Superman can sneeze away galaxies or has towed trains of planets, even though the sun itself has the mass of 330 THOUSAND earth type planets.

The mid tier thing comes on the heels of the silver age, where Diana’s power level was downgraded and many her stories were about her mooning over Steve, who often treated her like crap.

[brettc1]

That appreciation thread is devoted to their romance, which not everyone on here supports. Outside of that, there isn't always a lot of positive discussion about Superman going on here. Not everything is about shipping. This isn't his forum, so this isn't the place to have a lot of in depth talk about him period, but when it does, it's usually how she cannot fly because of him or that all the problems facing her franchise are somehow his fault when the DC franchises started to merge into a shared universe. Some of it is valid, because female characters in general across the big two have suffered a great deal and DC does prioritize Superman and Batman over others, some of it is not. Check out the archives. I'm not entirely convinced she's not (yet?) flying in the DCEU because of Superman because WB is running as far away from Superman as they can get plus Shazam and his family will likely fly, and in Snyder's JL Superman isn't the only one flying because J'onn is as well, and she's seen floating in Bendis's MOS mini. If DiDio wants to weaken her, it's not because he consistently gives a crap about Superman over her, it's something else.

Mentioning how DC favors Batman to the detriment of other properties (including Superman) is not bashing Batman, it is just pointing out reality. They definitely have historically favored Superman over other properties in the past, but they don't consistently do it anymore. They honestly publish enough Superman related material as is and Wonder Woman and other properties need a whole lot MORE, but Batman has way too much. Disliking the BatGod trope is not the same as disliking Batman as a whole, because most of us don't.

True. The only thing that approaches the over the top sycophantic worship DC has for the Bat franchise is how Marvel deals with the X-titles. Wolverine is practically a bat-God in his own right. I loved the X-men in the 80s and early 90s, but now they’re just EVERYWHERE. You can’t even follow the stories without buying at least six different books. Even if I wanted to jump back on board, I could never afford it.

[daBronzeBomma]

Yes, but if you mention that to a super-fanatic you are likely to be hit with quotes about how Superman can sneeze away galaxies or has towed trains of planets, even though the sun itself has the mass of 330 THOUSAND earth type planets.

The mid tier thing comes on the heels of the silver age, where DianaÂ’s power level was downgraded and many her stories were about her mooning over Steve, who often treated her like crap.

Or, one of us "superfanatics" (I thought name-calling was frowned upon on these boards) could just point out that

A) the sun-towing is Wonder Woman's best-ever feat by such a large margin it falls into the same "too-high-an-outlier-to-count" category as does Superman's galaxy-sneezing feat (i.e. something they never repeated)

B) the very next issue after towing the sun, Wonder Woman gets knocked out by the mortal villain Hypnota.

C) both of those Wonder Woman stories were written by Marston, so inconsistency is a hallmark of the character going back to her own creator

D) Pre-Crisis Superman was consistently, utterly, uber-ridiculous in power scale.

The sun is an average-size star. Superman could and did move giant stars out of their orbits just to consume extraterrestrial threats:



This was normal for Pre-COIE Supes.

The point is, even before Diana's "Dark Age" (1947-1987), she was written inconsistently in terms of physical power. Wonder Woman plays second fiddle to Superman the same way Superman plays second fiddle to Batman: popularity determines outcome more often than outcome determines popularity.

Wonder Woman needs to find a niche that DOESN'T put her in direct competition with the very few characters that are more popular than her.

This is a pissing contest she can't win.

[starlight25]

Or, one of us "superfanatics" (I thought name-calling was frowned upon on these boards) could just point out that

A) the sun-towing is Wonder Woman's best-ever feat by such a large margin it falls into the same "too-high-an-outlier-to-count" category as does Superman's galaxy-sneezing feat (i.e. something they never repeated)

B) the very next issue after towing the sun, Wonder Woman gets knocked out by the mortal villain Hypnota.

C) both of those Wonder Woman stories were written by Marston, so inconsistency is a hallmark of the character going back to her own creator

D) Pre-Crisis Superman was consistently, utterly, uber-ridiculous in power scale.

The sun is an average-size star. Superman could and did move giant stars out of their orbits just to consume extraterrestrial threats:



This was normal for Pre-COIE Supes.

The point is, even before Diana's "Dark Age" (1947-1987), she was written inconsistently in terms of physical power. Wonder Woman plays second fiddle to Superman the same way Superman plays second fiddle to Batman: popularity determines outcome more often than outcome determines popularity.

Wonder Woman needs to find a niche that DOESN'T put her in direct competition with the very few characters that are more popular than her.

This is a pissing contest she can't win.

That has to do with the fact that many writers nerf her, change her origin, cast, etc every 3 seconds. What consistency can you achieve then? Her film did great. Much better than superman's mos. Yet they went out of their way to make her and the rest of the jl fodder to sm in that crappy jl movie. The fact WW has achieved all she has avchieved with such a bad treatment from her own company is impressive.

[Vordan]

That has to do with the fact that many writers nerf her, change her origin, cast, etc every 3 seconds. What consistency can you achieve then? Her film did great. Much better than superman's mos. Yet they went out of their way to make her and the rest of the jl fodder to sm in that crappy jl movie. The fact WW has achieved all she has avchieved with such a bad treatment from her own company is impressive.

Which was a terrible call on Zack Snyder’s part. But JL was already filming before WW’s stellar reception took hold. There was no time to course correct, not that I’m defending WB or Snyder mind you. They should’ve pulled the plug on JL after BvS flopped.