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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'm not saying they're fully and totally equal though. I would agree they're not. Wonder Woman is indeed in Superman's shadow because he's always been consistently more popular than she is. And for the majority of DC's time, not only more popular than her, but more popular than everyone. He was DC for about 50-60 years before it turned toward Batman. So no they're not going to be equal. Writers can try, though. And I think some did during their time together and I give them credit for that. Maybe more than other WW fans do. But that's each own's prerogative. But all the same I'm certainly not arguing that they're equal. Sadly Superman has been trending downward for a few decades now due to mismanagement, but they're still not equal. WW has only just recently started trending up thanks tot he movie, but it hasn't yet really started to trickle down elsewhere (comics, animation, etc).

    But anyway, what I was initially commenting on about was just one particular aspect of the inequality, in which I think their respective main supporting cast member/love interest starts to play a role as well. I was just focusing on a particular question that came up. I mean yeah, today Steve is better recognized. He's had a good couple years. But at the same time that doesn't off the bat erase nearly 80 years of bad reputation. He's been upgraded presently but its going to take a lot longer for the old stink to completely wear off. It has to keep up consistently for some time.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-27-2018 at 07:41 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  2. #47
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    Again, I don't agree.

    Steve Trevor has had so little exposure for the last 40 odd years that there's whole generations of readers and viewers with no experience with him. There's no "stink" to concern them with, because awesome Steve is the only one they know.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-27-2018 at 09:00 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  3. #48
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Mainstream movie viewers who are not into comics, no, they would have no clue either way. Comics readers? They know of his negative reputation. Its a known quantity outside of his relative absence for such a long time.. Because comic fans tend to research, comic fans tend to check out back issues. Its just a natural stepping stone of the fandom. I mean, he was never around outside of being the older, rather unimportant husband of Etta when I grew up reading comics. But it didn't take much searching to figure out who he was classically and what his reputation was. Same as how my generation as children never saw Barry Allen in a then-current book. He was dead and had been dead a while. But we figured it out. So Steve doesn't have any sort of clean slate within the comic fandom Its too much to just be completely erased since the New 52 brought him back in a sometimes-meaningful role. Especially since in that time he's only gone over rather lukewarm as it is. He still needs a lot of work. One good movie is not going to suddenly make him Lois Lane level. I hope he gets there, but its going to take time and investment on DC's part. Good films will help, but its still not going to happen overnight with comic fandom.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-27-2018 at 10:45 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Mainstream movie viewers who are not into comics, no, they would have no clue either way. Comics readers? They know of his negative reputation. Its a known quantity outside of his relative absence for such a long time.. Because comic fans tend to research, comic fans tend to check out back issues. Its just a natural stepping stone of the fandom. I mean, he was never around outside of being the older, rather unimportant husband of Etta when I grew up reading comics. But it didn't take much searching to figure out who he was classically and what his reputation was. Same as how my generation as children never saw Barry Allen in a then-current book. He was dead and had been dead a while. But we figured it out. So Steve doesn't have any sort of clean slate within the comic fandom Its too much to just be completely erased since the New 52 brought him back in a sometimes-meaningful role. Especially since in that time he's only gone over rather lukewarm as it is. He still needs a lot of work. One good movie is not going to suddenly make him Lois Lane level. I hope he gets there, but its going to take time and investment on DC's part. Good films will help, but its still not going to happen overnight with comic fandom.
    LOL.

    Saying Steve still labors under the burden of his 60's reputation is like saying this is how people think of Batman...



    But one good comic was all it took to change his persona overnight, going from a guy who did the batusi to the man who has spent the last thirty years making Superman his whipping boy, and the ruling god of the DCU...

    Last edited by brettc1; 12-27-2018 at 11:14 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  5. #50
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    ....Adam West Batman recently had his own comic book adaptation that lasted three years. People of all ages know of that incarnation, kids whose parents weren't even alive when the show was on know of it. And he's still associated today as a strong part of the overall history of the character even if its nothing like what the 'main" version is like anymore.

    If anything that example aids my point. Comic fans of all ages get to know history. Thus they get to know reputation and perceptions die hard. They know Steve's rep and it was poor for a really long time. That's no statement that an individual isn't allowed to be a fan of his. And its not intended as an insult. Its just the reality of a long term negative perception. And in comic fandom perception lasts.

    So yes, Steve still labors under the burden of his past reputation. And he's not the only one. Look at Aquaman. Any comic fan knows he still still labors under the burden of his past poor reputation as well (this might be his time for that to finally change too, but again, time will tell).
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-28-2018 at 01:10 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  6. #51
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm not saying they're fully and totally equal though. I would agree they're not. Wonder Woman is indeed in Superman's shadow because he's always been consistently more popular than she is. And for the majority of DC's time, not only more popular than her, but more popular than everyone. He was DC for about 50-60 years before it turned toward Batman. So no they're not going to be equal. Writers can try, though. And I think some did during their time together and I give them credit for that. Maybe more than other WW fans do. But that's each own's prerogative. But all the same I'm certainly not arguing that they're equal. Sadly Superman has been trending downward for a few decades now due to mismanagement, but they're still not equal. WW has only just recently started trending up thanks tot he movie, but it hasn't yet really started to trickle down elsewhere (comics, animation, etc).

    .
    Well Dam I came here to say this but I guess don't have to now. This is a Wonder Woman board where views are going to be more pro WW but put this same topic on main DC forum and see what happens. She just is not Superman or Batman no disrespect to Wonder Woman. Now don't get me wrong Wonder Woman is phenom in her own right but she is going to play second fiddle because in the comic realm she isn't what some of you think she is BUT outside of comics she is very bit the equal of Superman and Batman and has reach in some areas greater than those guys.

    Superman and Batman have clean consistent mythos. Superman came as baby Kal el from Krypton to escape its destruction ,grew up on farm in Kansas with Kents, lives in Metropolis as reporter Clark Kent his big enemy is Lex his love Lois Lane and he is amazing powerful. Batman born in Gotham ,parents got shot when he was young, became Batman is a Billionaire main enemy is Joker. Do I even need to do Wonder Woman? Clay or Zeus? Can She fly or does she need a Invisible jet? Do Bullets hurt her or she doesn't need to block them? Ares or Cheetah? Mostly Greek mythology stuff and the Amazon Island or in a Major city regular super hero stuff? Secret identity or None? Badass Warrior Princess or Emissary of Peace to world of Man? Lasso or Sword & Shield? etc. You guys are Wonder Woman fans you know why she is second fiddle in the comic realm. She facing up against the cleanest consistent mythos where as Wonder Woman mythos is all over the place. She is not going have quality level of stories of guys with consistent narratives. What are they pushing for Wonder Woman right now? Big gun in the world of Magic, 5 years from now you guys think they will be pushing that?

  7. #52
    Mighty Member My Two Cents's Avatar
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    Superman's narrative has been much worse than Wonder Woman's these past decades.
    At least the changes each writer has brought to Diana's history can be used as an excuse.
    But what excuse is there for decades of stories in which Clark is used out of character???

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by My Two Cents View Post
    Superman's narrative has been much worse than Wonder Woman's these past decades.
    At least the changes each writer has brought to Diana's history can be used as an excuse.
    But what excuse is there for decades of stories in which Clark is used out of character???
    How are we describing "out of character"?

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    ....Adam West Batman recently had his own comic book adaptation that lasted three years. People of all ages know of that incarnation, kids whose parents weren't even alive when the show was on know of it. And he's still associated today as a strong part of the overall history of the character even if its nothing like what the 'main" version is like anymore.

    If anything that example aids my point. Comic fans of all ages get to know history. Thus they get to know reputation and perceptions die hard. They know Steve's rep and it was poor for a really long time. That's no statement that an individual isn't allowed to be a fan of his. And its not intended as an insult. Its just the reality of a long term negative perception. And in comic fandom perception lasts.

    So yes, Steve still labors under the burden of his past reputation.
    No, he really doesn't. Well, clearly in your mind, but I don't think much anywhere else. You missed the point entirely. People can read the Adam West Batman, but it doesn't change the status of the current batgod. But not many people are going to go further back than Perez to read about Wonder Woman, and if they do they are likely to skip Kannigher entirely and go straight to the source, which are kooky and fun, and don't feature loser Steve.

    Getting back to the original topic - it will be interesting to see how things unfold following the next WW movie. There is a saying that I am quite fond of - that attitudes don't change, but generations disappear. This is true of both fans and creators. I have no doubt that the resistance to change will continue, but more women are now writing comic books, and more shows and movies are featuring female leads. I mean, SUPERGIRL has her own show now going into its fourth season and that NEVER would have happened even twenty years ago, when Buffy was breaking all kinds of molds. Over in LEGENDS, White Canary is a bisexual woman who runs the team and kicks ass while cracking wise.

    Just as Superman had to adjust to the change in the status quo caused by Batgod, both characters will eventually find themselves suffering a paradigm shift as Wonder Woman continues to gain momentum. The only question is whether it will happen supported by the DC storylines or in spite of it.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Well Dam I came here to say this but I guess don't have to now. This is a Wonder Woman board where views are going to be more pro WW but put this same topic on main DC forum and see what happens. She just is not Superman or Batman no disrespect to Wonder Woman. Now don't get me wrong Wonder Woman is phenom in her own right but she is going to play second fiddle because in the comic realm she isn't what some of you think she is BUT outside of comics she is very bit the equal of Superman and Batman and has reach in some areas greater than those guys.

    Superman and Batman have clean consistent mythos. Superman came as baby Kal el from Krypton to escape its destruction ,grew up on farm in Kansas with Kents, lives in Metropolis as reporter Clark Kent his big enemy is Lex his love Lois Lane and he is amazing powerful. Batman born in Gotham ,parents got shot when he was young, became Batman is a Billionaire main enemy is Joker.
    And that is about where Batman's consistency stops.

    Is he a good guy or a borderline psychopath. Does he like Superman, tolerate him, want to kill him? Is he a caring father figure to Dick Grayson or is he the cold, machiavellian figure who teaches him to deal with pain by turning him into a weapon [as seen in the recent Titans series].

    And Superman? Does he kill? Not kill? Sometimes kill? Is he a proud American or someone who disavows all government authority? Is Jonathan Kent the guy who encourages him to be a hero or the guy who says maybe he should let others die to play it safe? Is he a big blue boy scout or a New 52 bad boy?

    It's not that the mythos are consistent. It's the demographics.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  11. #56
    Amazing Member RudHao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Just as Superman had to adjust to the change in the status quo caused by Batgod, both characters will eventually find themselves suffering a paradigm shift as Wonder Woman continues to gain momentum. The only question is whether it will happen supported by the DC storylines or in spite of it.
    Suffering? Interesting terminology.

    Imo Wonder Woman becoming a more popular/successful franchise isnt going to hurt Batman or Superman. It wasnt the success of Batman that hurt Superman, it was the mismanagement of the people who own Superman that has done it to him.
    Last edited by RudHao; 12-28-2018 at 06:31 AM.

  12. #57
    Fantastic Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RudHao View Post
    Suffering? Interesting terminology.

    Imo Wonder Woman becoming a more popular/successful franchise isnt going to hurt Batman or Superman. It wasnt the success of Batman that hurt Superman, it was the mismanagement of the people who own Superman that has done it to him.
    It seems Superman fans are unable to understand that. They just dislike Batman 'cause it's more succesful than Superman, and for some reason that's not good for Superman. I even watched a documantery about Superman and it had the same mind set, suddenly it turned into ''booo !!! the dark knight ruterns, booo !!! The Batman'' ...

  13. #58
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And that is about where Batman's consistency stops.

    Is he a good guy or a borderline psychopath. Does he like Superman, tolerate him, want to kill him? Is he a caring father figure to Dick Grayson or is he the cold, machiavellian figure who teaches him to deal with pain by turning him into a weapon [as seen in the recent Titans series].

    And Superman? Does he kill? Not kill? Sometimes kill? Is he a proud American or someone who disavows all government authority? Is Jonathan Kent the guy who encourages him to be a hero or the guy who says maybe he should let others die to play it safe? Is he a big blue boy scout or a New 52 bad boy?

    It's not that the mythos are consistent. It's the demographics.
    You think different characterization in other mediums(movie and comics) is on same level as vastly different power set and origins in one medium? I nearly died laughing when I read issue of a Justice League and bullet bounce off Superman and critical wounded Wonder Woman





    You are not getting it Batman and Superman have consistent mythos, Tomorrow a writer can take over Wonder Woman and drastically change rules ,powers and even origins.Nobody is taking over superman going nope he can't fly and lets change Superman origin to Zod is superman father because his mom had an affair. Basic fundamental things get change that clear effect the story you can tell one writer has Wonder Woman as a God equal maybe even greater than Superman another writer has stray bullets nearly killing her because they want her blocking bullets with bracers to make sense. Just my opinion feel to disagree

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    You think different characterization in other mediums(movie and comics) is on same level as vastly different power set and origins in one medium? I nearly died laughing when I read issue of a Justice League and bullet bounce off Superman and critical wounded Wonder Woman





    You are not getting it Batman and Superman have consistent mythos, Tomorrow a writer can take over Wonder Woman and drastically change rules ,powers and even origins.Nobody is taking over superman going nope he can't fly and lets change Superman origin to Zod is superman father because his mom had an affair. Basic fundamental things get change that clear effect the story you can tell one writer has Wonder Woman as a God equal maybe even greater than Superman another writer has stray bullets nearly killing her because they want her blocking bullets with bracers to make sense. Just my opinion feel to disagree
    I do.

    Characters get nerfed all the time. Superman is no exception. For example...



    Say WHAT now? Harley Quinn just pickpocketed Wonder Woman out of her lasso, used it rope Batman, and is now using it to stalemate Superman.

    Hilarious! Surely either Diana or Clark should be able to more in a fraction of the time it takes Harley to BLINK, and yet for some reason they cannot get Batman out of this pickle. It's as dumb as toast, and yet it happens. The whole trinity, INCLUDING SUPERMAN, just got powned by Harley Quinn, because when she does eventually escape even Superman can't find her. LOL.

    So yeah, power sets fluctuate for everyone, and it doesn't even matter because no matter how powerful you are, Batgod will outsmart you. He LIVES to have plans that make Superman and everyone else look like pigeon trying to play chess.

    Superman unable to fly? Already happened. He spent about 7 issues of the New 52 unable to do so. Sure, EVENTUALLY he could fly. Eventually Wonder Woman's clay origin may be officially restored. Who knows?

    Oh and the Zod as his father thing. Don't dismiss it. If DC thought it was make them money, they'd do it. The 'everything you know is a lie' story is a standard comic book trope.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-28-2018 at 08:24 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Superman's on their priority list right now? Are they fast tracking a new movie or something, which they didn't show any signs of doing even back before the DCEU's reputation became more and more toxic?

    Batman definitely is. Not entirely without reason, but it still kind of sucks. Even for people that love Batman.



    Ideally, they'd keep the Superman output around where it is if not a bit more(with better quality), dial back the Bat-stuff to that level, and consistently raise WW to it. Then the Trinity would be balanced.

    And put a lot more effort into everybody else as well.
    To be fair superman has had two new animated movies coming out, a writer who has new heroes inspired by only him, and superboy to appear in Young justice both comics and animation, Titans show, and animated movie. Death and Return of Superman is going to ne shown in theaters. He's had a show about that lasted 10 seasons and an 11th one in the comics.

    They were major players in season one of Young Justice, while Wonder Woman barely communicated with Wonder Girl. When is the last time WW had an animated movie much less an animated show.

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