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  1. #61
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    No, he really doesn't. Well, clearly in your mind, but I don't think much anywhere else. You missed the point entirely. People can read the Adam West Batman, but it doesn't change the status of the current batgod. But not many people are going to go further back than Perez to read about Wonder Woman, and if they do they are likely to skip Kannigher entirely and go straight to the source, which are kooky and fun, and don't feature loser Steve.
    Its not just a conjuration in my mind. I'm not some wacky conspiracy theorist, these aren't even controversial points, this is all pretty much common knowledge. Everyone knows he's an in-general unpopular character and has been for most of his existence. And I didn't miss the point. Its just not a very good comparison to support your point. I said before that Steve Trevor requires a concentrated effort from DC to get him out of his doldrums. Batman was there once upon a time, in part because of the 60s show. It at one time was a negative burden on Batman. He was at one time doing horribly. In the 70s though an effort was made to restore him to his roots. That concentrated effort culminated by the 80s, and the character recovered. It recovered to the point where the negativity 60s Batman once had on his reputation changed into something more playful and positive because the character was restored to a better place. Celebrating the silly camp instead of bemoaning it became an option and that indeed is what happened. Thus it proves my point on two fronts with tangible, historical evidence. History is remembered in comics, and reputations last in comics until the strong effort is put in to change things for the better. If they were to do that with with Steve and have it succeed, then his past as a lame duck will no longer matter.

    But Steve Trevor has received no such renaissance in his character to date. The failures of the past remain pretty much as is as negative perceptions and interpretations. A stink can last till you use the present to remove it and that can take time. If it took time for Batman it'll surely take time for a supporting character of a franchise that has only just recently started getting any love. We're getting close to a decade to his return in the comics, and that was a step forward, but just one step. Not much has been done with him of note since. Putting him in a successful movie franchise has helped more, but that's a positive that needs to be transferred into the comics and hasn't just yet. So there's work to do. Further I think you're way off in your theory that if people decide to back, they'll only go back so far or skip certain things. It takes time to wade through vast sources of materials, but in general, the comic book fan does just that. Its in the DNA of the fandom, for the most part.

    In any case if this is too far off-topic I apologize to everyone for the drift. I will say though that when it comes to WW and her fighting for recognition over the big-guns, Steve really plays no part in that. This was by no means devised as a deflection. He just came up in certain romance hypotheticals in which I felt it was indeed relevant to point out. But that's been discussed to death at this point. Cheers to everyone and happy new year.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-28-2018 at 01:16 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  2. #62
    Fantastic Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Ofcourse Superman is more popular, i mean come on... Do i even need to say this ? I know Wonder Woman is about equality between men and women and She was created to go toe to toe with all super men as the super woman so Superman having the upper hand grind the gears of Wonder Woman fans, i can understand that but this is how it is. Batman is more popular than Superman... there will always be a hierarchy, lets look at them as products even if it's hard for us the fans. Or comics is heavy on the male fans side, i mean there are so much more male comics readers than there are female ones, and these boys identify with male characters and Wonder Woman is a female character. They can, i can admire her beauty and skills but never identify with her. This is probably why she's number 3 after Batman and Superman, and this is not a bad spot in men's comics world... lol Marvel doesn't even have a iconic female character which can go toe to toe with Wonder Woman (they push Captain Marvel but we will see) Do you realise how big she is ? but if we talk Marvel and DC She will be under the shadow of Superman, Batman, Iron Man, Wolverine and Spider-Man, i mean it can be said bros before admirable beautiful skillful ladies... lol These are childhood heroes and you know little boys... They are like ''girls yuck !'' lol boys stick with boys when they were little and girls stick with girls so Boys will always go for Batman, Superman before Wonder Woman. Even i wasn't caring about Wonder Woman at first, but later on she grew on me as i saw her in JL books and event books, i started to admire her, and now, i have tones crap about her, absolutes and deluxes and statues and figures and stuff. If she keeps on having succesful films, she will probably bring in more female fans in the future then may be she can be more popular.
    Last edited by Gurz; 12-28-2018 at 01:27 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    You think different characterization in other mediums(movie and comics) is on same level as vastly different power set and origins in one medium? I nearly died laughing when I read issue of a Justice League and bullet bounce off Superman and critical wounded Wonder Woman





    You are not getting it Batman and Superman have consistent mythos, Tomorrow a writer can take over Wonder Woman and drastically change rules ,powers and even origins.Nobody is taking over superman going nope he can't fly and lets change Superman origin to Zod is superman father because his mom had an affair. Basic fundamental things get change that clear effect the story you can tell one writer has Wonder Woman as a God equal maybe even greater than Superman another writer has stray bullets nearly killing her because they want her blocking bullets with bracers to make sense. Just my opinion feel to disagree
    That ugly jl comic writen by a dude who once said. I don't relate to white women in tiara talking big talk. That only proves he is a bias writer. He doesn't like WW, and the moment he had to write her, he threw her under the bus. N other comics she was even shot in the brain and was fine.

    SM has had changes in hisorigin, powers, etc. Maybe WW has ha mor. But there you go. If WW's origin, powers, cast etc change so much. It's because the allow it. So she is playing second field because they want her to. What effort to bring more consistency into her verse have they made? They have allowed many writers to change whatever they want. That proves they don't care much about her. But her potential is there. The big hit she had in 2017 is another proof of that. Sadly it seems DC hasn't fully realized yet.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    To be fair superman has had two new animated movies coming out, a writer who has new heroes inspired by only him, and superboy to appear in Young justice both comics and animation, Titans show, and animated movie. Death and Return of Superman is going to ne shown in theaters. He's had a show about that lasted 10 seasons and an 11th one in the comics.

    They were major players in season one of Young Justice, while Wonder Woman barely communicated with Wonder Girl. When is the last time WW had an animated movie much less an animated show.
    WW is also a character that influences other characters. She is an animated movie coming next year, another one on the silver screen in 2020.

    It's amazing all she has achieved without being given the same oportunities of exposure.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    WW is also a character that influences other characters. She is an animated movie coming next year, another one on the silver screen in 2020.

    It's amazing all she has achieved without being given the same oportunities of exposure.
    Yeah I'm not knocking that she has one. But this is her second animated movie in over ten years since her first one. She's also never gotten an animated show and the characters she inspires are nowhere near as popupar as they should be. She really deserves more.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    Yeah I'm not knocking that she has one. But this is her second animated movie in over ten years since her first one. She's also never gotten an animated show and the characters she inspires are nowhere near as popupar as they should be. She really deserves more.
    How many characters inspired by superman re as popular as him? WW has inspired characters that are popular too, they don't have to be the most popular characters ever to count.

    She deserves more, i'm still waiting for better days.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Its not just a conjuration in my mind. I'm not some wacky conspiracy theorist, these aren't even controversial points, this is all pretty much common knowledge. Everyone knows he's an in-general unpopular character
    As I tell my students, when somebody tells you the truth [or in this case common knowledge], ask for the facts that can be proven.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    How many characters inspired by superman re as popular as him?
    The question here is... with whom?

    I mean, Supergirl has her own show right now, and in it she knocked Superman flat on his backside. Comics may be a male dominated market right now, but go outside that and the pattern begins to change.

    supergirl demographic.jpg

    This is the response to Supergirl's TV show. There is a very clear trend that the show is generally better received better by female views than males. Especially interesting is the voting by males and females who are under 18 years of age. The number of votes from males and females is comparable, and yet the reaction is markedly different.

    By the way, [and you can verify this yourself using this link - because facts - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4532368...?ref_=tt_ov_rt ] this pattern continues to a lesser extent with Legends of Tomorrow, where Caity Lotz leads the team as White Canary. Female views rate the show more highly in general than the guys, though not with as big a difference.

    Also interestingly, if you jump over to The Flash it is rated about equal by male and female viewers.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3107288...?ref_=tt_ov_rt

    So those are the FACTS. What do they mean? It seems both genders are often in sync when it comes to a male lead, but put a female in the spotlight and difference becomes bigger and tends to skew towards the males being less impressed on average. One could extrapolate that this trend would continue in printed mediums as well.

    So one could therefore hypothesize about the reason behind the OP's question. First - facts - the current readership of comics seems to be abuot 67% male. This is based on the latest marken research [2017] though three years earlier the poll said they were closer to the same.

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10...n-37-by-women/

    That being the case, if the trend from TV shows holds true, female readers will read about characters of either gender, but males will tend to be less impressed by books with a female lead.

    In short, Wonder Woman is outshone in the books by Superman because most of the readership are guys, and they don't seem to rate a female lead as highly.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The question here is... with whom?

    I mean, Supergirl has her own show right now, and in it she knocked Superman flat on his backside. Comics may be a male dominated market right now, but go outside that and the pattern begins to change.

    supergirl demographic.jpg

    This is the response to Supergirl's TV show. There is a very clear trend that the show is generally better received better by female views than males. Especially interesting is the voting by males and females who are under 18 years of age. The number of votes from males and females is comparable, and yet the reaction is markedly different.

    By the way, [and you can verify this yourself using this link - because facts - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4532368...?ref_=tt_ov_rt ] this pattern continues to a lesser extent with Legends of Tomorrow, where Caity Lotz leads the team as White Canary. Female views rate the show more highly in general than the guys, though not with as big a difference.

    Also interestingly, if you jump over to The Flash it is rated about equal by male and female viewers.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3107288...?ref_=tt_ov_rt

    So those are the FACTS. What do they mean? It seems both genders are often in sync when it comes to a male lead, but put a female in the spotlight and difference becomes bigger and tends to skew towards the males being less impressed on average. One could extrapolate that this trend would continue in printed mediums as well.

    So one could therefore hypothesize about the reason behind the OP's question. First - facts - the current readership of comics seems to be abuot 67% male. This is based on the latest marken research [2017] though three years earlier the poll said they were closer to the same.

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10...n-37-by-women/

    That being the case, if the trend from TV shows holds true, female readers will read about characters of either gender, but males will tend to be less impressed by books with a female lead.

    In short, Wonder Woman is outshone in the books by Superman because most of the readership are guys, and they don't seem to rate a female lead as highly.
    But they went out of their way to make WW and the rest of the league fodder to SM in jl movie. And they didn't put much effort in the WW movie. It was good, but they did the bare minimum. And they focused too much on her gear instead of her powers. When she is supposed to be a powerhouse, not a superhuman xena. I hope that things get better if her success in movies continues.

  10. #70
    Amazing Member RudHao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The question here is... with whom?

    I mean, Supergirl has her own show right now, and in it she knocked Superman flat on his backside. Comics may be a male dominated market right now, but go outside that and the pattern begins to change.

    supergirl demographic.jpg

    This is the response to Supergirl's TV show. There is a very clear trend that the show is generally better received better by female views than males. Especially interesting is the voting by males and females who are under 18 years of age. The number of votes from males and females is comparable, and yet the reaction is markedly different.

    By the way, [and you can verify this yourself using this link - because facts - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4532368...?ref_=tt_ov_rt ] this pattern continues to a lesser extent with Legends of Tomorrow, where Caity Lotz leads the team as White Canary. Female views rate the show more highly in general than the guys, though not with as big a difference.

    Also interestingly, if you jump over to The Flash it is rated about equal by male and female viewers.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3107288...?ref_=tt_ov_rt

    So those are the FACTS. What do they mean? It seems both genders are often in sync when it comes to a male lead, but put a female in the spotlight and difference becomes bigger and tends to skew towards the males being less impressed on average. One could extrapolate that this trend would continue in printed mediums as well.

    So one could therefore hypothesize about the reason behind the OP's question. First - facts - the current readership of comics seems to be abuot 67% male. This is based on the latest marken research [2017] though three years earlier the poll said they were closer to the same.

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10...n-37-by-women/

    That being the case, if the trend from TV shows holds true, female readers will read about characters of either gender, but males will tend to be less impressed by books with a female lead.

    In short, Wonder Woman is outshone in the books by Superman because most of the readership are guys, and they don't seem to rate a female lead as highly.
    You assume that Male/Female ratings disparity is due to Supergirl being a girl which isnt necessarily true.

    It could be because Supergirl the show has tilted more to a preachy SJW type storytelling style the more it goes on which may be a turn off to some guys.

    You shouldn't assume the lead gender is the issue here

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RudHao View Post
    You assume that Male/Female ratings disparity is due to Supergirl being a girl which isnt necessarily true.

    It could be because Supergirl the show has tilted more to a preachy SJW type storytelling style the more it goes on which may be a turn off to some guys.

    You shouldn't assume the lead gender is the issue here
    I don't assume, I hypothesize. Which is why I looked at other sources of data, such as Legends. The WW movie was also rated more highly by female audiences, as was the Tomb Raider 2018 movie. There is an identifiable pattern across multiple sources.

    I didn't get the SJW vibe from Supergirl at all. It certainly addresses issues. But then so does a lot of Star Trek.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-28-2018 at 07:38 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    No, he really doesn't. Well, clearly in your mind, but I don't think much anywhere else. You missed the point entirely. People can read the Adam West Batman, but it doesn't change the status of the current batgod. But not many people are going to go further back than Perez to read about Wonder Woman, and if they do they are likely to skip Kannigher entirely and go straight to the source, which are kooky and fun, and don't feature loser Steve.

    Getting back to the original topic - it will be interesting to see how things unfold following the next WW movie. There is a saying that I am quite fond of - that attitudes don't change, but generations disappear. This is true of both fans and creators. I have no doubt that the resistance to change will continue, but more women are now writing comic books, and more shows and movies are featuring female leads. I mean, SUPERGIRL has her own show now going into its fourth season and that NEVER would have happened even twenty years ago, when Buffy was breaking all kinds of molds. Over in LEGENDS, White Canary is a bisexual woman who runs the team and kicks ass while cracking wise.

    Just as Superman had to adjust to the change in the status quo caused by Batgod, both characters will eventually find themselves suffering a paradigm shift as Wonder Woman continues to gain momentum. The only question is whether it will happen supported by the DC storylines or in spite of it.
    Why would they suffer as she gained momentum? Her becoming more popular doesn't mean they'll become less popular or relevant, unless you think Aquaman who is also gaining momentum is a bad sign for Wonder Woman.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    Why would they suffer as she gained momentum? Her becoming more popular doesn't mean they'll become less popular or relevant, unless you think Aquaman who is also gaining momentum is a bad sign for Wonder Woman.
    Suffering is perhaps the wrong word. After all, the characters being fictional they can’t suffer. Their fans, of course, are a different matter.

    For example, I postulate there are quite a few Superman fans who feel like TDKR and the rise of the Batgod has led to some suffering on their part when it came to their enjoyment of their comic book hobby. If your character is at the top of the heap for an extended period, shown to be the numero uno, then seeing them have to share the top spot or being bumped out of it can be painful.

    It’s also a fact that the market for ANY product is NOT infinite. If it was, Marvel and DC would compete so fiercely for readers’ $$$. If WW did get a second regular title, the market share to support it fas to come FROM somewhere. And the demographics aren’t static either. They may change with glacial speed, but they DO change. All of theses and more are reasons for things like COIE, and more recently THE NEW 52 and REBIRTH.

    After COIE, Superman got a radical overhaul. Killerbee can talk about the mythos being sacrosanct, but a LOT changed. And the reason is because Superman wasn’t selling well enough. You don’t go through a major upheaval over a chracter that’s at the top of the market (which, by the way, is the reason that the changes to Batman and Teen Titans were a loss less. TT was one of DC’s best earners at the time and if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.)
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-29-2018 at 01:08 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Suffering is perhaps the wrong word. After all, the characters being fictional they can’t suffer. Their fans, of course, are a different matter.

    For example, I postulate there are quite a few Superman fans who feel like TDKR and the rise of the Batgod has led to some suffering on their part when it came to their enjoyment of their comic book hobby. If your character is at the top of the heap for an extended period, shown to be the numero uno, then seeing them have to share the top spot or being bumped out of it can be painful.

    It’s also a fact that the market for ANY product is NOT infinite. If it was, Marvel and DC would compete so fiercely for readers’ $$$. If WW did get a second regular title, the market share to support it fas to come FROM somewhere. And the demographics aren’t static either. They may change with glacial speed, but they DO change. All of theses and more are reasons for things like COIE, and more recently THE NEW 52 and REBIRTH.

    After COIE, Superman got a radical overhaul. Killerbee can talk about the mythos being sacrosanct, but a LOT changed. And the reason is because Superman wasn’t selling well enough. You don’t go through a major upheaval over a chracter that’s at the top of the market (which, by the way, is the reason that the changes to Batman and Teen Titans were a loss less. TT was one of DC’s best earners at the time and if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.)
    Batman and Superman's fans won't suffer either because there's nothing that says her gaining popularity will lessen theirs. The DKR example you used isn't comparable imo, that made Batman look superior to Superman and had him beat him in a fight. Wonder Woman is more popular because of her movie which has nothing to do with either of those 2. It's not like the movie had her beating them up or anything, her popularity increase hasn't come by making them look inferior to her.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    Batman and Superman's fans won't suffer either because there's nothing that says her gaining popularity will lessen theirs. The DKR example you used isn't comparable imo, that made Batman look superior to Superman and had him beat him in a fight. Wonder Woman is more popular because of her movie which has nothing to do with either of those 2. It's not like the movie had her beating them up or anything, her popularity increase hasn't come by making them look inferior to her.
    Yet. But I an tell you from personally living through it that the bitter complaining, and vast amount of rationalisation, from many fans that happend when Wonder Woman took down Superman in the Max Lord storyline was a thing to behold. The only thing that exceeded it was the rift in fans about whether WW would kill Max.

    And no,the movie did not have her beating up Superman. Quite the opposite in fact, despite their equal showing agains Doomsday.

    Popularity is like politicl power - it resides completely in the mind. If Wonder Woman beats Superman in a fight [as in the Max Lord example] or beats the hell out of Batman [as in her book Hiketeia] then some people seem to see that as an attack on the sovereignty of those characters, and by extension their popularity.

    There is also the Elvis and Beatles argument from Pulp Fiction. One cannot like them equally, there must be a favourite.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

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