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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But that Thor had Mjolnir. And everything that makes Thor Thor is housed in Mjolnir (or so we've been presented) .
    Exactly. Which is just painful.I still remember how Hickman briefly presented the Unworthy Thor at the end of his Avengers run.He was down and out but still maintained his dignity and regal nature.

    We’ve seen Thor without Mjolnir several times in the past and he’s quite different than what we are seeing now.

    The whole borderline alcoholic,unserious Thor is entertaining purely on a surface level but after a while becomes very grating and starts to become rather vapid. Odin too has been presented like some unserious, irresponsible god that apparently gets into fights drunk. I was very disappointed with the Robbie Reyes fight when Odin was smelling of alcohol, like seriously, the guy has apparently lived for billions of years and has encountered all manner of threats and sacrificed his own eye for wisdom. Going into fights drunk doesn’t show any form of wisdom or common sense for that matter.

    Odin and Thor should be and have been better than what we are seeing nowadays. I’ve generally enjoyed Aaron’s work but he needs to lay off certain tropes he’s leaning into.
    Last edited by Username taken; 12-24-2018 at 10:58 PM.
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  2. #47
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Exactly. Which is just painful.I still remember how Hickman briefly presented the Unworthy Thor at the end of his Avengers run.He was down and out but still maintained his dignity and regal nature.

    We’ve seen Thor without Mjolnir several times in the past and he’s quite different than what we are seeing now.

    The whole borderline alcoholic,unserious Thor is entertaining purely on a surface level but after a while becomes very grating and starts to become rather vapid. Odin too has been presented like some unserious, irresponsible god that apparently gets into fights drunk. I was very disappointed with the Robbie Reyes fight when Odin was smelling of alcohol, like seriously, the guy has apparently lived for billions of years and has encountered all manner of threats and sacrificed his own eye for wisdom. Going into fights drunk doesn’t show any form of wisdom or common sense for that matter.

    Odin and Thor should be and have been better than what we are seeing nowadays. I’ve generally enjoyed Aaron’s work but he needs to lay off certain tropes he’s leaning into.
    I think the characterisation of Odin and Thor goes beyond "a fair bit annoying" to actually really weakening a fair bit of what run should be about: "What does it mean to be worthy"?

    Okay Aaron has come up with a defendable answer...if you're a drunken selfish guy (like His Thor is portrayed quite often in run), or a drunken coward (Odin) you're unworthy, but if you're noble, brave, and totally skilled (like Jane instantly becomes when she lifts the hammer) then you're worthy.

    Sure it's a defendable answer. But it relies on writing on three characters in a way not really seen before, and in many ways an unsatisfying answer...it's easy to imagine writers like Alan Moore or John Ostrander coming up with much more profound thoughts on same topic ("what is worthy").

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I think the characterisation of Odin and Thor goes beyond "a fair bit annoying" to actually really weakening a fair bit of what run should be about: "What does it mean to be worthy"?

    Okay Aaron has come up with a defendable answer...if you're a drunken selfish guy (like His Thor is portrayed quite often in run), or a drunken coward (Odin) you're unworthy, but if you're noble, brave, and totally skilled (like Jane instantly becomes when she lifts the hammer) then you're worthy.

    Sure it's a defendable answer. But it relies on writing on three characters in a way not really seen before, and in many ways an unsatisfying answer...it's easy to imagine writers like Alan Moore or John Ostrander coming up with much more profound thoughts on same topic ("what is worthy").
    In regards the unworthy point, I totally agree, they have been degraded to push the point nothing else imo

    And it was never needed to show worthyness I feel

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I sorta feel that we wont see a change in the direction of certain characters until the cultural and political climate at Marvel changes. These past couple of years there is a clear sign that the atmosphere at Marvel comics can be described as jumbled. Somethings changed for the better while others for the worse. However, one thing has been very clear Marvel is willing to make their most prominent characters look like fools in continuance of pushing a certain agendas. They seem incapable of up-lifting properties at the same time but are fully cable of alienating their audience.

    Marvel sales have been some of the lowest they have seen in several years and probably will continue to be so until they figure out that they the need older audience on their side to move forward with the younger audience. I'm actually in the younger audience side and I can see that. I can even fully admit that a large margin of the newer stuff is utter crap compared to the older stuff. There are so many titles and characters, who use to be filled with so much excitement and personality that feel soooo hollow and dull now. It's nothing short of being equally sad as it is embarrassing.

    Anyway, Thor is suffering because of the men and women at Marvel Comics's values and personal agenda's. Yes, I do believe Marvel writers want to write good stories but I also feel they will and have already sacrificed good story telling for pushing their personal thoughts and messages.
    I completely agree with this statement. This is why my Marvel pull list dwindled done to almost nothing. Since agenda Bendis is gone my pull list has grown considerably. After the Hydra Cap story line I almost quit Marvel. Spencer is one of my favorite writers too until he gets political. I love his Amazing Spider-Man now. Loved his Ant-Man run. I read comic books to get away from agendas and biases. Those should be secondary to the story and not the other way around.

    As for Thor? Come on his girlfriend is stronger than him now. Is Odison going to be doing the dishes next while Jen goes out drinking with the boys? I understand what Aaron is doing but Thor is now a laughingstock getting beat up by everyone. Hulk, Juggernaut, Namor, Namor's swim team, the Winter Guard. Hyperion is coming up. Would be nice to see Thor hold his own against him instead of another skull fracture.
    Last edited by Dreaded Porcupine; 12-25-2018 at 08:09 PM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I sorta feel that we wont see a change in the direction of certain characters until the cultural and political climate at Marvel changes. These past couple of years there is a clear sign that the atmosphere at Marvel comics can be described as jumbled. Somethings changed for the better while others for the worse. However, one thing has been very clear Marvel is willing to make their most prominent characters look like fools in continuance of pushing a certain agendas. They seem incapable of up-lifting properties at the same time but are fully cable of alienating their audience.

    Marvel sales have been some of the lowest they have seen in several years and probably will continue to be so until they figure out that they the need older audience on their side to move forward with the younger audience. I'm actually in the younger audience side and I can see that. I can even fully admit that a large margin of the newer stuff is utter crap compared to the older stuff. There are so many titles and characters, who use to be filled with so much excitement and personality that feel soooo hollow and dull now. It's nothing short of being equally sad as it is embarrassing.

    Anyway, Thor is suffering because of the men and women at Marvel Comics's values and personal agenda's. Yes, I do believe Marvel writers want to write good stories but I also feel they will and have already sacrificed good story telling for pushing their personal thoughts and messages.
    People really need to stop with the "but look at Marvel's sales!" cry to justify their own personal issues.

    Marvel is the #1 publisher in comics. Month in, month out. Year in, year out.

    With very rare exception, they consistently lead the industry. The months when they aren't #1 in both Diamond categories are few and far between.

    Do they sell as much in individual issues as they did in the '80s or '90s? No. But here's the thing - no one else does either. If DC or Image or any other publisher were selling at '90s numbers and Marvel was trailing far behind them, that'd be one thing. But that's not the case at all. Marvel's sales are in line with the overall trends for the industry and they ride those marketplace waves better than most.

    And before anyone says "But if they were putting out better books, sales wouldn't be down!", you have to realize that we're not in 1985 anymore. Just as in the '80s, comics sales were actually paltry compared to what they had been in the heyday of the '40s, comics have continued to be a niche hobby as more and more entertainment options have come into play. The marketplace pie is split in so many ways now. Comparing comics sales today to those of twenty or thirty years ago is like comparing network TV ratings now to what they used to be, before streaming services and DVR and so on. Network programming used to live and die by the overnight ratings. That's not the case anymore. Success is measured by different metrics. Decades ago, if a show got the overnight ratings that many hit shows do now, they'd be yanked off the air immediately. But we live in a different world now where people view programs through many different avenues.

    The same is true with comics. It's not just about the monthly floppies anymore. It's about digital and trades and so on.

    But to address Thor specifically, that title has maintained a consistently high audience throughout Aaron's six year run. Put simply, it's popular.

    We're nearing the tail end of Aaron's run now and the book is still holding onto its readers. After six years, that's not a fluke. The consistency of Aaron's Thor over so much time says that fans actually like it and have stuck with it and whatever Aaron is doing, it's resonated with a lot of people.

    That doesn't mean it resonates with everyone and it doesn't mean anyone is obliged to like it. But you do have to understand that, yes, this is a popular book and Aaron's portrayal of Thor suits a lot of fans - both old and newly minted alike - just fine.

    Maybe whoever takes the reigns from him eventually will be more to the taste of people who didn't care for Aaron's Thor but the fact of the matter is, whoever that writer may be is going to have some big shoes to fill.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    That doesn't mean it resonates with everyone and it doesn't mean anyone is obliged to like it. But you do have to understand that, yes, this is a popular book and Aaron's portrayal of Thor suits a lot of fans - both old and newly minted alike - just fine.
    Depends which Thor we're talking about, because as a whole I think Aaron is far more consistently praised for how he wrote Jane as Thor then how he writes OG!Thor.
    Maybe whoever takes the reigns from him eventually will be more to the taste of people who didn't care for Aaron's Thor but the fact of the matter is, whoever that writer may be is going to have some big shoes to fill.
    They definitely might not instantly find someone who is as much of a strong seller as Aaron was, but he's one of the few writers left at Marvel who can guarantee sales by name alone by this point.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Depends which Thor we're talking about, because as a whole I think Aaron is far more consistently praised for how he wrote Jane as Thor then how he writes OG!Thor.

    They definitely might not instantly find someone who is as much of a strong seller as Aaron was, but he's one of the few writers left at Marvel who can guarantee sales by name alone by this point.
    I think any fair argument predicated mainly on sales has to conclude its a good run.

    And actually my own subjective view is that it is a good run...when I’ve moaned extensively about characterisation of main characters it’s been in spirit of that being one of the main factors that has made run only “good”, rather than “very good”.

  8. #53
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    We already know exactly how his idea of worthiness relates to Thor. It's that Thor is still just as worthy as he always was, but is humble enough to still question that after being exposed to the concept of flawed gods. So that doubt makes him "unworthy" until he reaches a new height that he's already on his way to by Mangog. The story is about how he's already the best god, but now he believes he has to be better. That's the objective throughline of his arc over the entire run.

    I can't think of a single person more screwed than whoever has to take over Thor next year. Well, maybe future X-Men writers. Marvel better pull out a cocaine-fueled Donny Cates clone who speaks loose Shakespearean by default.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree View Post
    Someone needs to tell Marvel editorial and Writers that you don't have to nerf heroes, forget their past feats, and turn them into complete pushovers in order to teach them humility.
    I don't think it's the characters themselves Marvel is aiming this initiate towards.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaded Porcupine View Post
    I completely agree with this statement. This is why my Marvel pull list dwindled done to almost nothing. Since agenda Bendis is gone my pull list has grown considerably. After the Hydra Cap story line I almost quit Marvel. Spencer is one of my favorite writers too until he gets political. I love his Amazing Spider-Man now. Loved his Ant-Man run. I read comic books to get away from agendas and biases. Those should be secondary to the story and not the other way around.
    Exactly, the core Marvel Comics started out as a escapism medium. Did it hit on certain real world subjects at times? Yes. But those topics never sacrificed the characters, overall story, or more importantly the aspects that make comics fun. Comparing a lot of the stories today to the older ones, they do not have that much in them now and instead they seem to be just drawn out fluff. Not all of the books but a large margin of them seem that way.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Depends which Thor we're talking about, because as a whole I think Aaron is far more consistently praised for how he wrote Jane as Thor then how he writes OG!Thor.
    If that's so, it's only because he was Jane Thor's sole writer so there wasn't decades of Jane Thor stories for fans to hold up and say "But I liked it better when she was written this way!"

    Also, Jane's storyline had an attractive novelty to it. First, based on the mystery of her identity and secondly based on her battle with cancer. There was the possibility that her story would be finite, which everyone knows Thor's never will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    They definitely might not instantly find someone who is as much of a strong seller as Aaron was, but he's one of the few writers left at Marvel who can guarantee sales by name alone by this point.
    I don't think any writer can guarantee success on name alone. They sell based on the quality of the work. When a book sells strongly for years on end, people aren't picking it up because of the name on the cover. They're picking it up because they the work itself is compelling.

    If that writer isn't delivering, sales are eventually going to fall off.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    Exactly, the core Marvel Comics started out as a escapism medium. Did it hit on certain real world subjects at times? Yes. But those topics never sacrificed the characters, overall story, or more importantly the aspects that make comics fun. Comparing a lot of the stories today to the older ones, they do not have that much in them now and instead they seem to be just drawn out fluff. Not all of the books but a large margin of them seem that way.
    Anyone who says that Marvel used to be pure escapism that rarely touched the on the real world and that, when they did, it was unobtrusive, is speaking from an uninformed position.

    Marvel has always been rife with politics. If anything, it used to be much more blatant in that regard.

    You cannot go too far into '60s and '70s Marvel without being hit in the face with the issues of the day, oftentimes using language that would be shocking in today's PC times.

    I just re-read the early issues of Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man and the two issue story in #9 and #10 co-starring the White Tiger revolves around student protests at ESU and the university's president refers to the angry, largely minority, protesters as "loudmouthed slum kids." And later calls the White Tiger a "Puerto Rican hoodlum" in league with "young thugs who defy my authority."

    The two issues are full of heated racist rhetoric from President Dwyer and writer Bill Mantlo is very clear about where his sympathies lie in this tale.

    Marvel has always been political and has always had a foot firmly in the real world. It's nothing new and, if anything, today's comics are much more mild in that regard.

  13. #58
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    Of course, advertising has a lot to do with how the comic industry functions and the industry is awful at advertising. Sure, we have movies when cartoons, but direct advertising of comics only happens in another comic book or when you gooogle about comics and get an internet ad.

  14. #59
    Saoirse Ronan The Accuser CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I sorta feel that we wont see a change in the direction of certain characters until the cultural and political climate at Marvel changes. These past couple of years there is a clear sign that the atmosphere at Marvel comics can be described as jumbled. Somethings changed for the better while others for the worse. However, one thing has been very clear Marvel is willing to make their most prominent characters look like fools in continuance of pushing a certain agendas. They seem incapable of up-lifting properties at the same time but are fully cable of alienating their audience.

    Marvel sales have been some of the lowest they have seen in several years and probably will continue to be so until they figure out that they the need older audience on their side to move forward with the younger audience. I'm actually in the younger audience side and I can see that. I can even fully admit that a large margin of the newer stuff is utter crap compared to the older stuff. There are so many titles and characters, who use to be filled with so much excitement and personality that feel soooo hollow and dull now. It's nothing short of being equally sad as it is embarrassing.

    Anyway, Thor is suffering because of the men and women at Marvel Comics's values and personal agenda's. Yes, I do believe Marvel writers want to write good stories but I also feel they will and have already sacrificed good story telling for pushing their personal thoughts and messages.
    Can't agree more with your post. It's also nice to see a fellow Richard Rider fan on this forum.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree View Post
    Can't agree more with your post. It's also nice to see a fellow Richard Rider fan on this forum.
    Thank you and Thank you again. I am simply just speaking/writing on what I am witnessing and noticing. Going back and reading the older stories have taught me a lot. All the way down to reading Stan's Soap box and the letter pages in the back of the books. The atmosphere at Marvel has changed and it reflects in their writing.
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