The tragedy of Jobber Thor

[DragonsChi]

Wolverine is a breakout star. Deadpool is a breakout star. Kate Bishop is just a character that popular writers like for reasons that escape me. How did this character become the Young Avenger to get all these comic appearances, when she has the least interesting origin, look and skills? Yeah, I know Hawkeye uses a bow and arrow as well but the character is a master at it and was trained by Cap in hand to hand combat over a number of years.

Kate Bishop is Roy Harper, but not the Red Arrow or Arsenal version of Roy. Kate Bishop is Roy back when he was Speedy right before the horrible downfall.

Yeah, I said it.

Kate gained interest in Fractions Clinton Barton Hawkeye book when he somewhat openly turned the title into a Kate Bishop book. After that each new title that seemed to be about Clint was really about Kate. It was a bait and switch type marketing ploy but it seemed to work...Kate has her fanbase.

I'm not sure you could call her a breakout star since it was built relatively slowly but she has her place for the demographic Marvel is trying to sell to with her.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The run is far more subtle than just being about worthiness, even though that is the central theme. The story is also about what kind of god should be worthy of worship. This is where Aaron sometimes gets criticised for being an atheist. Anyone that understands theology at any level other than Sunday school knows that the questions and answers surrounding the anthropomorphic nature of deities, are not simply a question of faith. Aaron doesn't make this a simple question either. He is not advocating atheist beliefs, he is advocating reflection and examination of what we belive in. Something that some religious people find challenging despite millennia of debate within their own religions suggesting this is a valid thing to question.

Except that he never really examines the subject. He asks the question, in a manner that would be considered racist if we were discussing a non fictional group (All Gods suck! is the statement of Gor, and weight given to it). Thor's actions, in the context of the MU alone, should be enough to refute it.

And frankly, Aaron deserves the flack that he gets when people accuse him of using Thor as an atheist platform, because that is exactly what he's doing. Have we seen a flashback yet of Aaron, with young Thor, that didn't have the Odinson trying to earn worthiness cred to lift the hammer?

That's the very same virtue signalling that atheists toss out against the religious.

Its kinda ironic, really. Aaron doesn't seem to get that Thor does the right thing because it is the right thing. Thor must need some kind of reward and deprived of that, becomes directionless and lost.

It's a flip of the TV trope of Hollywood Atheist. Worshipping of a higher power is just assumed, and if that's not the case, there must be some kind of reason behind it (usually traumatic)

[U.N. Owen]

My problem with the Unworthy Thor is that it fails to make Thor, God of Thunder. Instead, it makes him Thor, God of Hammers.

Seriously, Thor Ragnarok solved my biggest problem with the Thor mythos and that was a comedy.

[Alan2099]

The run is far more subtle than just being about worthiness,

The run is about as subtle as a kick to the groin.

Basically other gods have done bad things so ALL gods are horrible, Especially since they haven't solved every problem ever.

Also, girl-power.

[kilderkin]

I had a lot of time for the Jane part of the work and that hasn't changed

But it screams to me that Aaron has used this run as a way to expound his real world views about religion, divinity and faith I feel

It might not have been deliberately planned that way but it's glaringly obvious to me

Some might disagree and I suppose I could be wrong

But I don't believe do

And I don't even feel it's been done very well

In my opinion

[Frontier]

The run is about as subtle as a kick to the groin.

Basically other gods have done bad things so ALL gods are horrible, Especially since they haven't solved every problem ever.

Also, girl-power.

I think broadly, especially for the Jane part of the run, this is pretty accurate.

[9th.]

Wolverine is a breakout star. Deadpool is a breakout star. Kate Bishop is just a character that popular writers like for reasons that escape me. How did this character become the Young Avenger to get all these comic appearances, when she has the least interesting origin, look and skills? Yeah, I know Hawkeye uses a bow and arrow as well but the character is a master at it and was trained by Cap in hand to hand combat over a number of years.

Kate Bishop is Roy Harper, but not the Red Arrow or Arsenal version of Roy. Kate Bishop is Roy back when he was Speedy right before the horrible downfall.

Yeah, I said it.

Kates probably just easier to write/use, Billys power is ridiculous, most people probably don't wanna see Teddy without Wiccan. Eli's trapped in legal nonsense so that really just leaves Tommy and Cassie.

[Frontier]

Kate Bishop is Roy Harper, but not the Red Arrow or Arsenal version of Roy. Kate Bishop is Roy back when he was Speedy right before the horrible downfall.

I think she's more Mia then Roy, if Mia came from a rich family and didn't actually want to be a sidekick.

Actually, she's more of an Emiko.

[Anthony W]

I think she's more Mia then Roy, if Mia came from a rich family and didn't actually want to be a sidekick.

Nah, Mia is actually an interesting character.

[JackDaw]

I don't think you are being fair here. There seem to be a whole heap of associated characteristics that people often quote as representive of Aaron's Thor that can not truely be substantiated by the actual text.

Drunkard is the most obvious and easy to refute. He is portrayed as being drunk once and only once by Aaron and in the context of a long night in a tavern getting frustrated by his inability to work out who the new Thor is and having an identity crisis over his role. Personally I belive anyone that calls someone a drunkard just because they drank themselves into a stupor on a single occasion is being somewhat prejudiced over alcohol.

He is never shown to be cowardly. Not in a single panel. He is occasionally shown to be doubting his ability but that is fundamental to the story being told. The self doubt is key to his inability to call on his storm powers consistently. This is actually in the text in Thor's own words, so not open to interpretation. So nothing to do with Mjölnir excepting the obvious that unworthiness leads to self doubt and that reflectively doubt over the worthiness of gods leads to unworthiness.

As to comparisons to Jane as Thor, I honestly belive Aaron goes out of his way not to do this. It is not the story he was telling. Yes there are occasional references to people considering Jane as the 'Best Thor' etc. Importantly we never get any direct comparisons in deed or competition, and Jane herself expresses the opposite sentiment, that Thor Odinson is THE Thor.

The run is far more subtle than just being about worthiness, even though that is the central theme. The story is also about what kind of god should be worthy of worship. This is where Aaron sometimes gets criticised for being an atheist. Anyone that understands theology at any level other than Sunday school knows that the questions and answers surrounding the anthropomorphic nature of deities, are not simply a question of faith. Aaron doesn't make this a simple question either. He is not advocating atheist beliefs, he is advocating reflection and examination of what we belive in. Something that some religious people find challenging despite millennia of debate within their own religions suggesting this is a valid thing to question.

In regard to this particular run, I think I am far less biased than you.

Thor is constantly show as drinking and eating to excess. What else does one call it when having saved a village from a raiding dragon one proceeds to eat and drink more than the dragon ever took? It’s clear he’s being shown as selfish, happy to take more than he gives.

And I don’t understand your notion that Jane Thor and Thor aren’t being constantly compared. It’s true they don’t fight directly...but let’s consider a few other things.

One can lift the hammer, one can’t.

One constantly eats and drinks to excess, one doesn’t.

One is faithful to their lover, one isn’t.

One completes three classic tasks with more finesse than the other.

One sacrifices their health every time they are Thor.

One fails to defeat Mangog, one defeats Mangog and is willing to make a sacrifice that appals and awes the other.

Can you really tell me with a straight face that Jane Thor is not being compared to Thor,and being portrayed as superior??

[Sutekh]

Kate Bishop is Roy Harper, but not the Red Arrow or Arsenal version of Roy. Kate Bishop is Roy back when he was Speedy right before the horrible downfall.

Ha! Now I want to see a recreation of this classic cover, with Kate, Clint and some third person doing the j'accuse.

As for 'jobber' Thor, it's felt like a classic heroic deconstruction, which was all the rage for the last few decades, and, so far, has taken way too damn long.

It's not yet progressed to the point of just about every other comic book heroic deconstruction, which seems to follow the same progression;
1) new hot writer (who may or may not be a curmudgeonly misanthrope who resents the character for being more 'iconic' than his own indie stuff, or consider the whole notion of 'superheroes' to be juvenile and beneath him, but needs the money) shows up and drags hero down and 'breaks' them with the stated narrative goal of building them back up stronger than ever.
2) new hot writer gets bored (or a better paying gig elsewhere) and leaves the hero muddied and broken, sailing off to ruin someone else's IP.
3) next generation of readers wonder why anyone wants to read about this beat-up loser or considered them a 'hero' in the first place.

Jason hasn't abandoned the story yet, or 'wandered off,' so it's premature to say that his attempt at deconstruction has gone the way of all things, but precedent is not encouraging...

Due to the length that this story has taken, there might well be readers who have gotten into Marvel since he's been writing Thor, and think of him as a Falstaffian whiner, but that's always been the case, and for every one of them, I can think of fans who got into Marvel in the last decade and think that Tony Stark has 'always' been a snark machine or that Wanda Maximoff has always been a 'reality manipulator' or actual witch or whatever the hell she is this year.

I liked Jane as Thor. I *loved* Russell Dauterman's art. But I have no interest in reading Aaron's Thor, or Avengers, without said art to hook me visually, because I am exactly that shallow. It's taken way too damn long to get to the 'building the hero back up' phase and *I* got bored and wandered off...

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

Except that he never really examines the subject. He asks the question, in a manner that would be considered racist if we were discussing a non fictional group (All Gods suck! is the statement of Gor, and weight given to it). Thor's actions, in the context of the MU alone, should be enough to refute it.

And frankly, Aaron deserves the flack that he gets when people accuse him of using Thor as an atheist platform, because that is exactly what he's doing. Have we seen a flashback yet of Aaron, with young Thor, that didn't have the Odinson trying to earn worthiness cred to lift the hammer?

That's the very same virtue signalling that atheists toss out against the religious.

Its kinda ironic, really. Aaron doesn't seem to get that Thor does the right thing because it is the right thing. Thor must need some kind of reward and deprived of that, becomes directionless and lost.

It's a flip of the TV trope of Hollywood Atheist. Worshipping of a higher power is just assumed, and if that's not the case, there must be some kind of reason behind it (usually traumatic)

Basically it's God's not Dead trilogy in reverse. Especially regarding the stupid ideas that people become atheists or agnostic after the death of his parents, that atheists secretely believe in God but resent him (that's misotheism not atheists btw) and that people don't have morals without christianity.

[BlueLiving]

I think we've all been spoilt to much by a period of Thor being a serious, powerful warrior that we forget all the times he's portrayed as a more unencumbered, carefree warrior.

But even right now it seems odd to be too upset over Thor struggling when in the very same book we get to see that in the end he becomes an all-powerful god fighting to save people at the end of time.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think we've all been spoilt to much by a period of Thor being a serious, powerful warrior that we forget all the times he's portrayed as a more unencumbered, carefree warrior.

But even right now it seems odd to be too upset over Thor struggling when in the very same book we get to see that in the end he becomes an all-powerful god fighting to save people at the end of time.

That's because it feels like we've been waiting through all those billions and billions of years to actually see that

[kilderkin]

I think we've all been spoilt to much by a period of Thor being a serious, powerful warrior that we forget all the times he's portrayed as a more unencumbered, carefree warrior.

But even right now it seems odd to be too upset over Thor struggling when in the very same book we get to see that in the end he becomes an all-powerful god fighting to save people at the end of time.

strangely I felt different about old thor, powerful true, but I do feel he's portrayed as a bit stupid and foolish, I'm really not that impressed by it at all

but even if I accept your point, it doesn't change showing now, future stories don't really mean anything coz any old story can change future events