Dates with Diana

[Koriand'r]

I kind of thought that Angle Man could work as Diana's "Catwoman", at least the Phil Jimenez revamp anyways.

It was Donna he was crushing on, in an attempt to cover all the angles. Other than Clark or Steve if opposites truly attract I think Ed Indelicato was Diana's best match. He had scruffy bad boy looks with a heart of gold.

[Sacred Knight]

Honestly the only thing off the top of my head that really intrigues me is romantic tension with Cheetah. She and Barbara went on a few dates early on, things were clicking, then...yeah. In fact I still have a sneaking suspicion something like that was what Rucka really wanted to do in his last run based on their earliest encounters within it and the building up of their history. I think eventually doing Etta/Barbara was a poor man's version of what he really wanted to do. I can't prove it, its just a feeling.

I'd even go so far as to leave the door open to one day even reform her. Leave the door open a bit, maybe 40/60 that it could be left to imagination that maybe their dynamic isn't destined to be ultimately tragic.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Its my fannon that Wingo was only after Diana in an effort to make Ronno notice him. Its a desperate effort on my part to make that awful love triangle work.

I could go for that...!

[WonderScott]

I kind of thought that Angle Man could work as Diana's "Catwoman", at least the Phil Jimenez revamp anyways.

Jimenez's Angle Man is BY FAR my favorite interpretation of the character... he's a little bit of an on-the-nose take on Selina in some ways as the dashing, gentleman thief scoundrel, but I think he works well that way.

I think Diana deserves her own, original rakish and possibly provocative paramour, as Angelo seemed much more into Donna Troy than her sister (at the time.)

[WonderScott]

I managed to work out a way to simultaneously give Themyscira's older Amazons a shameful (not horrible!) secret, possible non-aunty romantic partners for Diana, a good reason for why only select Amazons could participate in the tournament, keep the clay origin around, and an opening for a brother to Diana.

Oooooooo, fantastic kjn! I look forward to hearing about that if you ever decide to share it.

I certainly don't necessarily dismiss it, once Diana comes of age, but it's an interesting quandary given Amazon culture and all the areas we haven't explored in Diana's upbringing and her relationship to all the Amazons on the island. I still have to work it out a bit in my Series Bible, because, admittedly, I've been mostly working on her, and her city, and her supporting characters, and her villains once she comes to Patriarch's World.

Cheetah could be such a candidate; Rucka had some hints in that direction. However, one reason for why Catwoman (and Poison Ivy) worked in the Batman mythos was because they were used to reinforce Batman's manliness, first by being the target of desire by two women who literally could have any man they wanted, second by being unmoved by their advances. In a world where women are treated as trophies, the ultimate proof of manliness is being able to reject or set aside the trophies.

I also find it interesting that both Catwoman and Poison Ivy (but especially Catwoman) is a challenger to Batman's puritanical and rigid morality, as Brubaker used to great effect. Batman is at core about justice about setting the world back to order, Catwoman has developed to be about justice for those who never get a chance. I can recommend a comparison of Brubaker's "Joy Ride" with Rucka's "Hiketeia"; both perform similar critiques of Batman's morality.

I'm not sure it's possible to create a similar moral challenger for Wonder Woman. Heck, from Diana's point of view, Batman could be treated as an anti-villain.

Rucka definitely gave Barbara a bit of that vibe in Year One, before he had Etta and Barbara connect and start a romance. I'm kind of okay with that, given the strength of Cheetah as an adversary and that I think diving into Barbara and Diana's platonic friendship is an important story to tell. (Side note: Interestingly, Adora and Catra explore remarkably similar themes in Season 1 of Netflix's new animated She-Ra and the Princesses of Power series.)

There's a part of me that feels like this is a creative opportunity for a new "classic" Wonder Woman adversary (in the vein of creating a Harley Quinn) instead of using an existing character... if the stars align properly and creatively in a meaningful way and result in a happy accident.

Catwoman and Poison Ivy, at least classically, play into the stereotypes of male privilege and have challenged that over time and changed with (or helped change) all the eras they've been active in.

My creative impulses say there's something new to say about such relationships from Wonder Woman's point of view that turns traditional stereotypes, expectations, and privilege on its ear.

(I'll let you know when I actually sort that out and can prove/write it.) LOL

[WonderScott]

It was Donna he was crushing on, in an attempt to cover all the angles. Other than Clark or Steve if opposites truly attract I think Ed Indelicato was Diana's best match. He had scruffy bad boy looks with a heart of gold.

I agree with Koriand'r. I can't see Jimenez's Angle Man enthralled by anyone than Donna and, surprisingly, I was drawn into her interactions with him. Something about it just worked.

Unfortunately, that was a reality or two ago and we certainly don't have the same Donna Troy anymore (SAVE DONNA TROY!), let alone an Angle Man in favor of a panel or two of someone named Anglette. ::shrugs shoulders::

[WonderScott]

Honestly the only thing off the top of my head that really intrigues me is romantic tension with Cheetah. She and Barbara went on a few dates early on, things were clicking, then...yeah. In fact I still have a sneaking suspicion something like that was what Rucka really wanted to do in his last run based on their earliest encounters within it and the building up of their history. I think eventually doing Etta/Barbara was a poor man's version of what he really wanted to do. I can't prove it, its just a feeling.

I'd even go so far as to leave the door open to one day even reform her. Leave the door open a bit, maybe 40/60 that it could be left to imagination that maybe their dynamic isn't destined to be ultimately tragic.

I enjoyed the Ruckaian Cheetah, but the Perezian Barbara Minerva is so imprinted on me, that I really like the idea that Barbara turns to evil as she's such a pillar of the Wonder Foe foundation, that I can't come to grips with her being out for anyone but herself and how that would impact all the Cheetah stories we've never had with her.

Maybe I'm just stuck though, as I see so much potential in the character that's been routinely unrealized by writers and DC itself.

[WonderScott]

Its my fannon that Wingo was only after Diana in an effort to make Ronno notice him. Its a desperate effort on my part to make that awful love triangle work.

LOL.

Wingo is definitely a citizen of Feithera and Ronno is hanging out with Lori Lemaris in Tritonis in my fannon.

I also need them to join an Anti-Justice League soon.

[kjn]

Oooooooo, fantastic kjn! I look forward to hearing about that if you ever decide to share it.

I think I've posted about it here earlier, but here goes. Note that this is more of an outline and concept, where details about gods, the details of proto-Themyscira, and so on can be plugged in. It's also meant to be meshed with my take on the Bana-Mighdall not as violent man-hating Amazons but as a group that would not give up the original Amazon mission of bringing civilisation to mankind, but it's not dependant on that.

After freeing themselves from captivity/slavery under $HERACLES, the $GODDESSES created Themyscira for the Amazons in order to $GUARD_DOOMS_GATE. Several/many of the Amazons were pregnant upon arrival at Themyscira, and their children were born there. These children were outside of the Themysciran compact between the Amazons and the $GODDESSES. The daughters were raised as Amazons.

But some of the Amazons bore sons instead, and Hippolyta was one of them. Since the $GODDESSES had forbidden men from Themyscira, the sons were given to the care of $GODS to be safely brought to Man's World. However, Hippolyta (and possibly others) were consumed with grief over having to give up their child, that $GODDESSES gave her (and possibly some more Amazons) the chance to sculpt Diana from clay. Tentatively, only Hippolyta managed this.

So what we have is a Themysciran-born generation of Amazons that are only a little older than Diana and raised together with her, providing playmates and romantic partners who didn't change her diapers. We also have the shameful secret of the sons of the Amazons, some of whom might still be out there in Man's World, one who might be Diana's half-brother (on her mother's side!). These Themysciran-born Amazons are also those that can leave Themyscira, and thus participates in the tournament.

Rucka definitely gave Barbara a bit of that vibe in Year One, before he had Etta and Barbara connect and start a romance. I'm kind of okay with that, given the strength of Cheetah as an adversary and that I think diving into Barbara and Diana's platonic friendship is an important story to tell. (Side note: Interestingly, Adora and Catra explore remarkably similar themes in Season 1 of Netflix's new animated She-Ra and the Princesses of Power series.)

On the other hand, it makes Etta into the center of the Barbara–Diana–Etta relationship triangle. In a way, I think I prefer Barbara in love with Diana, and a driving force in how she becomes the Cheetah. Diana's quest to redeem Cheetah would then be fueled both by love and guilt.

In contrast, the Etta–Barbara relation was decidedly unbuilt, and then more or less forgotten by everyone, including Etta. Not saying it can't be done, but it definitely hasn't been done well yet.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

LOL.

Wingo is definitely a citizen of Feithera and Ronno is hanging out with Lori Lemaris in Tritonis in my fannon.

I also need them to join an Anti-Justice League soon.

Yeah, it would be a good way to flesh things out. Though as weird as it sounds, I kinda wanna see some of the ridiculous set pieces the silver age gave their ridiculous homes. XD

O.o What the heck could Ronno and Wingo contribute to an anti justice league?

[Doctor Bifrost]

Several/many of the Amazons were pregnant upon arrival at Themyscira, and their children were born there. These children were outside of the Themysciran compact between the Amazons and the $GODDESSES. The daughters were raised as Amazons.

But some of the Amazons bore sons instead...

I've thought of that idea too. Even mapped out a storyline called "The Boys Themyscira." But I didn't have Hippolyta as one of the mothers.I think her yearning for a child stands on its own, without a previous child being taken away from her.

Ever since the Perez origin, I had another thought: Gaia continues to protect the souls of some women killed by men's violence (or, "by warfare," if you think that's a better idea), and every 900 years the goddesses incarnate a new group (smaller than the original) of Amazons on Themyscira. My main reason for this was to deal with the logistical problem that, periodically, a lot of Amazons get killed in some conflict or another, but since they don't have children there's no replacements, so their population just steadily swindles.

But I also thought it would be interesting to have successive generations of Amazons in this way. And also to see how the Amazons would react to the newcomers: happy to have new sisters to get to know, sad at the proof the Man's World was still at it.

[kjn]

I've thought of that idea too. Even mapped out a storyline called "The Boys Themyscira." But I didn't have Hippolyta as one of the mothers.I think her yearning for a child stands on its own, without a previous child being taken away from her.

Yeah, Hippolyta having a son before Diana can be quietly dropped, of course, and even retconned later on with sufficient handwaving. (First rule of writing: keep the background vague outside what is explicitly needed. Second rule of writing: always reserve the right to a better idea.)

Ever since the Perez origin, I had another thought: Gaia continues to protect the souls of some women killed by men's violence (or, "by warfare," if you think that's a better idea), and every 900 years the goddesses incarnate a new group (smaller than the original) of Amazons on Themyscira. My main reason for this was to deal with the logistical problem that, periodically, a lot of Amazons get killed in some conflict or another, but since they don't have children there's no replacements, so their population just steadily swindles.

But I also thought it would be interesting to have successive generations of Amazons in this way. And also to see how the Amazons would react to the newcomers: happy to have new sisters to get to know, sad at the proof the Man's World was still at it.

Yeah, there are various ways to handle new Amazons, or successive generations of them. I don't think there is any explicitly wrong way (except the Azzarello way), as long as the writer doesn't tie down things too much for later writers and keep stuff open for new writers.

Legends of Wonder Woman had mortal and immortal Amazons, and the mortals were magically impregnated at times by the gods (those two elements were perhaps the pieces of that work that I most disliked). A fanfic I read had the Amazons taking care of shipwrecked women, with most of them joining their society. And so on. I prefer a more "static" Amazon society population-wise, but realise it's a personal preference.

[WonderScott]

Yeah, it would be a good way to flesh things out. Though as weird as it sounds, I kinda wanna see some of the ridiculous set pieces the silver age gave their ridiculous homes. XD

O.o What the heck could Ronno and Wingo contribute to an anti justice league?

I mean, recreating/reimagining ridiculous Silver Age villains and set pieces has never hurt Batman, so I say it’s fair game for Wonder Woman too.

Maybe it’s more of a an Ex-League, all the exes of the Justice Leaguers. Ronno, Wingo, Magenta, Talia, etc.

[WonderScott]

I think I've posted about it here earlier, but here goes. Note that this is more of an outline and concept, where details about gods, the details of proto-Themyscira, and so on can be plugged in. It's also meant to be meshed with my take on the Bana-Mighdall not as violent man-hating Amazons but as a group that would not give up the original Amazon mission of bringing civilisation to mankind, but it's not dependant on that.

After freeing themselves from captivity/slavery under $HERACLES, the $GODDESSES created Themyscira for the Amazons in order to $GUARD_DOOMS_GATE. Several/many of the Amazons were pregnant upon arrival at Themyscira, and their children were born there. These children were outside of the Themysciran compact between the Amazons and the $GODDESSES. The daughters were raised as Amazons.

But some of the Amazons bore sons instead, and Hippolyta was one of them. Since the $GODDESSES had forbidden men from Themyscira, the sons were given to the care of $GODS to be safely brought to Man's World. However, Hippolyta (and possibly others) were consumed with grief over having to give up their child, that $GODDESSES gave her (and possibly some more Amazons) the chance to sculpt Diana from clay. Tentatively, only Hippolyta managed this.

So what we have is a Themysciran-born generation of Amazons that are only a little older than Diana and raised together with her, providing playmates and romantic partners who didn't change her diapers. We also have the shameful secret of the sons of the Amazons, some of whom might still be out there in Man's World, one who might be Diana's half-brother (on her mother's side!). These Themysciran-born Amazons are also those that can leave Themyscira, and thus participates in the tournament.



On the other hand, it makes Etta into the center of the Barbara–Diana–Etta relationship triangle. In a way, I think I prefer Barbara in love with Diana, and a driving force in how she becomes the Cheetah. Diana's quest to redeem Cheetah would then be fueled both by love and guilt.

In contrast, the Etta–Barbara relation was decidedly unbuilt, and then more or less forgotten by everyone, including Etta. Not saying it can't be done, but it definitely hasn't been done well yet.

An interesting solution regarding Diana, potential romantic partners, and the keeping someone like Jason in the family.

In my write up, I’ve got a different plan for the latter, and how Jason could exist, as I’m attempting creatively to fit almost every Wonder concept into it - even ones I’m not a fan of, like Jason.

I’m agreed about Etta and Barbara. The little we got with them was jettisoned very quickly. Who even knows where and what Etta’s up to now?

[Agent Z]

So Diana/Artemis anyone? I personally like the ship. And it avoids the other issues people bring up with other Amazons since Artemis wasn't on Themyscira.