Wonder Woman #61 the Just War pt 4 spoilers

[kjn]

I just read #60 & #61 back-to-back and am enjoying and am intrigued by the mysterious status quo of the "New" Gods. Aphrodite strikes me as more interesting, and Ares as more one-note, but that may just be that we've seen very few stories involving Aphrodite over the decades.

Well, Ares is rather one-note in the Greek myths themselves! But it's interesting how they both relate to theme of conflict. Ares is the god of war and agression that tries to reorient himself to justice, but with little idea on what it would entail, and he can't let go of his aggressive nature. Aphrodite wants to let go of love because it leads to conflict.

I don't mind Wonder Woman questioning herself, but I prefer to see her a little more self-confident, even when plunging into the unknown as she did with Ares. She's incredibly skilled in dealing with new situations and information, because she knows herself very, very well, and some of that quality is getting lost here.

I think Nord's art really hurt Wilson's narrative here, because instead of showing Diana as capable while questioning herself, his art has consistently shown Diana as surprised, waifish, or scared. And since Xermanico tries to adapt his tone to Nord, we get a slight improvement here, but not the wholly different tone in how Diana is depicted.

(Side note: I hate it when Diana uses the lasso as a whip.)

Better that than having a sword in her hand all the time, and I hope we will continue to see more uses of the lasso in coming issues as Wilson starts to dig into the rest of the run.

[kjn]

What I need more of: Diana as a detective (e.g. the gods' new natures, how to return to Themyscira, etc.); Diana as self-assured, and equally proactive as reactive; and Diana's costumed, non-mythological foes starting some epically-designed plots, subplots, and other crazy ish against her. (Perhaps the changed personalities and avatars of the gods are part of the latter.)

I was thinking about that I didn't agree with Diana being reactive rather than proactive, but couldn't really point my finger to why until it suddenly hit me.

Wilson is doing a classic fairy tale trope here, where the hero selflessly assists other people so they in turn can assist the hero later on. She assists the small boy with the faun, pegasus, and minotaur (or whatever we should call her), and I guess they will all become important later on. Then she assists the mother and child, which I guess won't be important later on. But then she rescues two kids, who gains her access to the prime minister and turns him into a friend of hers.

So while she isn't really proactive by planning per se, she reacts in a proactive way: her reactions are such that she will gain allies, friends, and confidantes. Not all of them will work out, but that's OK, because helping other people is what she is here to do, and if she gets something in return it's a bonus from Diana's point of view.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think Nord's art really hurt Wilson's narrative here, because instead of showing Diana as capable while questioning herself, his art has consistently shown Diana as surprised, waifish, or scared. And since Xermanico tries to adapt his tone to Nord, we get a slight improvement here, but not the wholly different tone in how Diana is depicted.

I noticed in part 2 that Wilson, through Diana's dialogue, wanted Wonder Woman to have the lasso on Ares. Nord drew it so that it's on her hip and not on Ares at all.
So I think you may have the right idea that the art is letting the story down and maybe conveying things Wilson does not intend in her scripts.

[kjn]

I noticed in part 2 that Wilson, through Diana's dialogue, wanted Wonder Woman to have the lasso on Ares. Nord drew it so that it's on her hip and not on Ares at all.
So I think you may have the right idea that the art is letting the story down and maybe conveying things Wilson does not intend in her scripts.

*checks* Yeah, you're right. I think I remember thinking about it when I first read the issue, but didn't note it down.

What an utter waste. We finally get a top-notch writer for Wonder Woman, and then she immediately gets saddled with not only subpar art, it's subpar art that directly undercuts the writer's narrative.

[SiegePerilous02]

*checks* Yeah, you're right. I think I remember thinking about it when I first read the issue, but didn't note it down.

What an utter waste. We finally get a top-notch writer for Wonder Woman, and then she immediately gets saddled with not only subpar art, it's subpar art that directly undercuts the writer's narrative.

If this run goes on long enough, hopefully we'll see an artistic shift.
Simone had Ed Benes during BOP, whose art definitely undercuts a feminist narrative with all the T&A. By the end of the run, she had Nicola Scott.

[brettc1]

*checks* Yeah, you're right. I think I remember thinking about it when I first read the issue, but didn't note it down.

What an utter waste. We finally get a top-notch writer for Wonder Woman, and then she immediately gets saddled with not only subpar art, it's subpar art that directly undercuts the writer's narrative.

It might have made it less agreeable, but I’m yet to be convinced on “top notch” writer.

[brettc1]

She doesn't fluctuate much, if at all, within her own book currently. No more than usual.

She actually did struggle with the Bana Amazons. Why else did they overwhelm her and delay her from getting to Cheetah? Because of plot, Perez needed her on the ground and bombarded by Banas so she would be too late to prevent Minerva from dealing a killing blow to Anahid, so he nerfed her for a scene. And the tired excuse doesn't work there, because she was flying above the Banas and shooting arrows down at them before that and floated at various points during her fight with Cheetah. And Cheetah, demigod who can stand up to Wonder Woman who is in Superman's weight class, is held at bay by machine gun fire while Diana draws out the poison dart Chuma shot her with.

Honestly, she has a better reason for being on the ground here. Kjn nailed it when they said that Diana is a teacher and puts herself with the civilians so she can show them how to survive when she's not there. She tells the PM to "step where I step," and teaching the kids is vitally important. In the original Wonder Woman #13, she told the citizens of Eveland "you saved yourselves! I just showed you that you could!" The DC superheroes constantly struggle with the dilemma of doing too much, because then the human race becomes a joke that survive or accomplish anything on its own.

This was years before Cheetah was the villain who could humble Supermam with one blow, and I will remind you that even when she did more recently Aquaman subdued her with a school of fish with sharp teeth. As for Disna, this was around the time Ordway had Superman momentarily knocked out by Gizmo, Shimmer and Mammoth from the Fatal Five.

The teaching idea is a stretch worthy of Ralph Dibny.

[SiegePerilous02]

This was years before Cheetah was the villain who could humble Supermam with one blow, and I will remind you that even when she did more recently Aquaman subdued her with a school of fish with sharp teeth. As for Disna, this was around the time Ordway had Superman momentarily knocked out by Gizmo, Shimmer and Mammoth from the Fatal Five.

But wait, I thought Perez's Diana was a powerhouse on par with Superman who was compassionate AND powerful? And Perez's Minerva was specifically designed to kick her ass in their first fight? She was clearly intended back then to be able to fight heroes in Diana's weight class. I don't care about what she can and cannot do to Superman. One of the runs that allegedly respected Diana's power far more than the current (measly four) issues had her get her ass handed to her by a villain who was later held at bay by machine gun fire in their first fight. And whom Diana raced after on foot despite being able to fly and no reason to remain on the ground.

The teaching idea is a stretch worthy of Ralph Dibny.

Maybe, but determining she is nerfed based on a facial expression she makes while catching a plane is a stretch worthy of Plastic Man.

Again you make my point for me. Lex Luthor and a Doctor Dooms minions are not geniuses either, but they are provided with things that give the heroes pause - weapons nor quite up to finishing off the hero but more fearsome than everyday ordinance.

How am I making your point for you, when the soldiers she is fighting are not working for mad scientist super villains like Lex and Dr. Doom? That has an in-story reason for why the weapons are provided. If the story doesn't want larger than life supervillains in it to provide the weapons you are looking for, that's your hangup, not the story's fault.

Most of these points are non starters. She’d just been pumped full of god venom in the Deimos instance, while in the shooting situation ignoring the sheer amazement that a person could get shot clean through the chest with a high Claire rifle bullet without hydrostatic shock destroying their internal organs.

The latter is definitely a cool feat for me. I know plenty of the WW fandom are less than thrilled that bullets don't bounce off her like the Kryptonians though.

Also, how are we getting around non-powered Priscilla Rich outrunning the woman who is supposedly swifter than Mercury aside from the fact that clearly Marston didn't give a crap about power consistency?

Also - Perez, like John Byrne over in Superman, was writing a freshly rebooted hero at a power level lower than what they would eventually grow into. Wilson can’t exactly claim that excuse, though Robindon didnt do any favours there.

Did Perez's run ever indicate that Diana was at a lower power level and that she would grow into more? I know Superman's power level creeped back up, but was that ever Byrne's intention or just other writers moving way from his direction.

[brettc1]

The plane by itself is not compelling evidence, but the amount of evidence has grown into an identifiable pattern, as with her needing Ares assistance to redirect a pretty modest missile in the same issue.

As for Marston I don't have the story in front of me, but he has the advantage of showing his Wonder Woman doing a vast number of spectacular feats. Maybe when Wilson shows me that it will wash out the sour taste of her first few issues.

The soldiers she is fighting work not for a mad scientist, but a mad God. With Aphrodite turning bombs into butterflies you'd think the god of war could help amp up his outnumbered devotees. It would certainly make Diana's encounters with them more reasonably dramatic.

[Gaelforce]

The plane by itself is not compelling evidence, but the amount of evidence has grown into an identifiable pattern, as with her needing Ares assistance to redirect a pretty modest missile in the same issue.

This plus the expressions Nord has been giving her are where the impression of 'this is difficult' when dealing with things that should be second nature/easy for her.

Hopefully this will change in the coming issues.

[BlueandGold]

What book is this from, please?

It's from DC Nation #2, that free magazine DC did in mid-2018.

[starlight25]

But wait, I thought Perez's Diana was a powerhouse on par with Superman who was compassionate AND powerful? And Perez's Minerva was specifically designed to kick her ass in their first fight? She was clearly intended back then to be able to fight heroes in Diana's weight class. I don't care about what she can and cannot do to Superman. One of the runs that allegedly respected Diana's power far more than the current (measly four) issues had her get her ass handed to her by a villain who was later held at bay by machine gun fire in their first fight. And whom Diana raced after on foot despite being able to fly and no reason to remain on the ground.



Maybe, but determining she is nerfed based on a facial expression she makes while catching a plane is a stretch worthy of Plastic Man.



How am I making your point for you, when the soldiers she is fighting are not working for mad scientist super villains like Lex and Dr. Doom? That has an in-story reason for why the weapons are provided. If the story doesn't want larger than life supervillains in it to provide the weapons you are looking for, that's your hangup, not the story's fault.



The latter is definitely a cool feat for me. I know plenty of the WW fandom are less than thrilled that bullets don't bounce off her like the Kryptonians though.

Also, how are we getting around non-powered Priscilla Rich outrunning the woman who is supposedly swifter than Mercury aside from the fact that clearly Marston didn't give a crap about power consistency?



Did Perez's run ever indicate that Diana was at a lower power level and that she would grow into more? I know Superman's power level creeped back up, but was that ever Byrne's intention or just other writers moving way from his direction.

Diana didn't struggle with those amazons. She spent a good amount of time trying to talk to them. It didn't work so she kicked her butts. She is a nice person so she didn't go all out on them, still she easily won.

wilson had Diana needing help from Ares to redirect a missile. And going ugh! when lifting a plane. So yes. Not the powerhouse she used to be. Oh look at this. Post Crisis Diana moving a plane with a cargo of 30.000 pounds of water with a smile on her face. When will Rebirth everything is a struggle Woman.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...0602-24606.jpg

[daBronzeBomma]

Is current Diana still supposed to be officially 6'2" (without heels) and "thick", as Rucka described for Rebirth? Seems she lost height and mass in these recent issues.

[kjn]

Is current Diana still supposed to be officially 6'2" (without heels) and "thick", as Rucka described for Rebirth? Seems she lost height and mass in these recent issues.

We touched on that a bit in the thread about Cary Nord's art. Nord definitely draws Diana on the very slender side, but more than that he consistently draws her in postures that make her appear smaller than she is. There is a marked difference in how Nord and Xermanico draws her, both in bulk and in postures.

[brettc1]

According to the latest DC Encyclopaedia I have, Diana is 6 ft.