Wonder Woman #61 the Just War pt 4 spoilers

[starlight25]

Anyone who knows the Flash's powers knows if he can get to the missile he can just vibe his hand inside it. And faster than sound is NOT fast for the Flash.

I bet the battle between Ares and Diana in WW #62 won't be a powerhouse battle. Maybe they won't even fight that much. Because it is not important for a book about the adventures of the so called greatest warrior and powerhouse amazon Goddess, to show well. Great fighting and power. I mean it shoud be obvious for anybody. That when she goes ugh! lifting a plane or blocking some guns, that is powerhouse level action..................................

[brettc1]

Lex is a larger than life mad scientist who has been trying to kill Superman with black holes and lighting since the two of them were children. Calling him a regular guy is hilariously false. If you want a story about human war, you do not fill it with guys like that, because it ceases being a grounded story. You might as well not bother telling a story about war if you are gonna fill it with Lex Luthors.

I see we are ignoring the quote marks we put around the word regular to try and weaken the argument. But the fact remains Lex is NOT a god. However, he does wheel out some pretty impressive arsenals. The reason is not because he is a genius, but because the writer writes him as capable of it. As indeed Ares could be.

Ares requires a grounded human conflict as a backdrop to work, he cannot be defeated outright because he represents a human capacity for violence, which is an abstract idea that can never be overcome with fists. Otherwise he's just a rampaging meta, whom she can clearly fight. He didn't wipe the floor with her in the movie and he didn't wipe the floor with her here. So your saying a God can wipe the floor with her doesn't hold up because we very clearly see that he cannot.

Yes, thank you for actually proving my point. Diana can fight a god to a standstill but she struggles with human beings with guns and tanks. Even though I could easily pull out several stories from the last ten years where she has held whole armies at bay.

If you have issues with the No Man's Land scene pushing her limits, that's ignoring the context that the origin film was her still discovering her powers and not even knowing what her limits are, and still growing into them. That scene does not lead to scenes like Harley stealing her lasso. One was a very well received scene in a very well received film, the other is only encountered by comics fans. Comic fans complaining about the No Man's Land scene nerfing her is just a bunch of noise, because it worked for the majority of the audiences and critics and worked in the context of the story and where Diana was at in her life. It wouldn't work later on, but just starting out and only just coming to understand what she's capable of? It works perfectly.

The one has nothing to do with the other. The scene in the movie is part of her growing into her powers. You can see throughout the story how her power level increases.

This book isn’t set in that situation at all. She supposed to be operating at her fully powered level. Since I wasn’t even talking about the movie in the post you quoted, I’m not sure why you’re bringing it up.

[starlight25]

I see we are ignoring the quote marks we put around the word regular to try and weaken the point. But the fact remains Lex is NOT a god. However, he does wheel out some pretty impressive arsenals. The reason is not because he is a genius, but because the writer writes him as capable of it. As nodded Ates could be.



Yes, thank you for actually proving my point. Diana can fight a god to a standstill but she struggles with human beings with guns and tanks. Even though I could easily pull out several stories from the last ten years where she has held whole armies at bay.



Gawd, the one has nothing to do with the other. The scene in the movie is part of her growing into her powers. You can see throughout the story how her power level increases.

This book isn’t set in that situation at all. She supposed to be operating at her fully powered level. So this point is... well, pointless.

Remember that many writers don't treat Wonder Woman villains with respect. They use them as stepping stones for other characters. Cheetah defeated by Green Arrow in n52. Then by Batman in Rebirth. The Gods have been owned many times as well. So probably WW being able to face a God doesn't mean much, if those Gods aren't writen as powerhouses either. Diana being equal to Rebirth Ares won't mean anything, if she finds it difficult to deal with humans with guns and tanks. That means Rebirth Ares would struggle the same way, based on the statement that he is her equal.

[kjn]

So basically other heroes can do things easily. But everything must be a struggle for WW. Otherwise the stories aren't good or "interesting" No thank you. I'm not here for super human xena. I'm here for Wonder Woman. With the powers of Gods. That can easily outspeed a misssile. Swin through lava. Take hits from kryptonians, walk out of a nuclear explosion like it's nothing, etc. That is WW. Not the one we are getting in many comics since 2011. gww so far is sounding like another writer that fakes her respect for the character of WW. She nerfed her like others and she is a woman that loves to talk about female power. She should be ashamed.

See, here's the thing. I define Wonder Woman by her character first: how she acts towards others and how she chooses to resolve conflicts and problems. The superpowers are part of that, because it opens up new avenues and she can and will at any moment decide to use—or not use—those same superpowers. But the physical powers don't define what makes Wonder Woman unique for me.

To me, the peak Diana moment in the movie was "No Charlie, who will sing for us?", because it turned her compassion and empathy into a superpower.

Or as Gail Simone put it in Wonder Woman vol 3 #25: "Don't kill if you can wound, don't wound if you can subdue, don't subdue if you can pacify, and don't raise your hand at all until you've extended it."

Anyone who knows the Flash's powers knows if he can get to the missile he can just vibe his hand inside it. And faster than sound is NOT fast for the Flash.

Note "stopping it dead in its tracks". I'm sure Flash can disable the missile, but now he has a one-tonne lump of metal moving at the speed of sound.

[brettc1]

See, here's the thing. I define Wonder Woman by her character first: how she acts towards others and how she chooses to resolve conflicts and problems. The superpowers are part of that, because it opens up new avenues and she can and will at any moment decide to use—or not use—those same superpowers. But the physical powers don't define what makes Wonder Woman unique for me.

To me, the peak Diana moment in the movie was "No Charlie, who will sing for us?", because it turned her compassion and empathy into a superpower.

Or as Gail Simone put it in Wonder Woman vol 3 #25: "Don't kill if you can wound, don't wound if you can subdue, don't subdue if you can pacify, and don't raise your hand at all until you've extended it."

Thank you for mentioning Gail. Not only is she the one writing Domino ( mentioned by me earlier ) but she is also a writer who understood the balance between character and power. So her Wonder Woman showed compassion, wisdom, and also punched out nukes and outfought Power Girl. She beat down a rogue Green Lantern, then gave him the chance to redeem himself.

LiKe Gaelforce, I think, I don’t see why readers should have to compromise between power levels and character. That’s like saying you have to decide between a cars engine and it’s steering. Lose one and you’re going nowhere, lose the other and your bound to crash.

Note "stopping it dead in its tracks". I'm sure Flash can disable the missile, but now he has a one-tonne lump of metal moving at the speed of sound.

Unless they’ve changed the rules, the Flash can either steal momentum from things or give them extra. Not to mention with a screwdriver he can actually dismantle the missile in under a second LOL

[kjn]

Thank you for mentioning Gail. Not only is she the one writing Domino ( mentioned by me earlier ) but she is also a writer who understood the balance between character and power. So her Wonder Woman showed compassion, wisdom, and also punched out nukes and outfought Power Girl. She beat down a rogue Green Lantern, then gave him the chance to redeem himself.

I'd rather say Simone understands the balance between story and spectacle (and spectacle is a major draw of superheroics, together with power fantasies), as well as levity and drama. She might put the exact balances at slightly different points than Wilson, but I think they both understand those tradeoffs very well.

You are also making a slightly unfair comparison. Right now, we are near the end of the Wilson's first arc, which you is comparing with the entirety of Simone's run. A better comparison would be with "The Circle", Simone's first story arc. While more action-oriented than Wilson's first arc, Diana doesn't use very many powers there either. In fact, we see a lot more of Diana—both as a character and as feats—in "The Just War" than we do in "The Circle".

[Gaelforce]

See, here's the thing. I define Wonder Woman by her character first: how she acts towards others and how she chooses to resolve conflicts and problems. The superpowers are part of that, because it opens up new avenues and she can and will at any moment decide to use—or not use—those same superpowers. But the physical powers don't define what makes Wonder Woman unique for me.

To me, the peak Diana moment in the movie was "No Charlie, who will sing for us?", because it turned her compassion and empathy into a superpower.

Or as Gail Simone put it in Wonder Woman vol 3 #25: "Don't kill if you can wound, don't wound if you can subdue, don't subdue if you can pacify, and don't raise your hand at all until you've extended it."



Note "stopping it dead in its tracks". I'm sure Flash can disable the missile, but now he has a one-tonne lump of metal moving at the speed of sound.

That moment with Charlie, btw, is one of my favorites in the movie as well.

Thing is, it came right after Diana easily trounced an entire occupying force, threw an armored vehicle with no effort and took down a church tower with one punch.

The movie balanced powerful action with beautiful story, which is what made it so awesome in my eyes.

Unfortunately, too many comic book writers seem to feel that in order to write a good story for Diana, they need to ignore/tone down her power.

I don't mean that all writers have to show great feats all the time, or that having awesome displays of power is better than good story. Here's the most obvious example that comes to mind:

- In Greg Rucka's story, Diana gets shot through the chest by an unknown sniper. He ends the book with a dramatic moment where she crumples, but then she gets right back up again because all it did was knock the wind out of her.

- Meanwhile, over in JL, in a warzone where there are shots being fired, Diana stands there like an idiot while a ricochet from Superman's chest hits her and she's suddenly at death's door, requiring rescuing and immediate care.

Both are emotional moments, but the second completely sacrifices her reflexes and healing in order to drive the story, which, to me, made it a bad story.

Same thing when I see Cheetah taking down Superman and then suddenly getting man-handled by Catwoman. Any good story there might have been with the Catwoman nonsense went right out the window when she punked a superspeed divine avatar.

Does this happen to other heroes? Yes, but it doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as it does to Diana, and I say this as a collector of 40+ years who just recently sold my 23,000+ book collection, so I've read a few titles in my time

So far, it hasn't reached that point yet with GWW, but it's verging on it at a few points for me. I'm willing to give her a few more issues to settle in before I decide how I feel about how she writes my favorite hero, though, so I'm going to see where she goes.

[Nyssane]

Finally got a chance to read this, and I thought it was great.

Art was far preferable to Nord. It reminded me a little bit of Bilquis Evely (one of my favorite WW artists), but sadly it doesn't look like it's a permanent change.

The story was fantastic. It's very clear that Wilson is taking inspiration from the Wonder Woman film. And that's awesome, because the WW film was fantastic. This comic version reads absolutely like Gal Gadot.

I'm also loving Aphrodite's characterization, and seeing her turn rockets into flowers was a treat. The whole story concept of Love & War and both Aphrodite and Ares reflecting on what their roles mean is super interesting and I'm surprised it has taken this long to see something like this.

So yeah, I rated it a four only because I feel like it drags in a few places and then feels rushed in a couple others, but as a whole I found it very enjoyable and I'm constantly excited for the next issue.

[SiegePerilous02]

I see we are ignoring the quote marks we put around the word regular to try and weaken the argument. But the fact remains Lex is NOT a god. However, he does wheel out some pretty impressive arsenals. The reason is not because he is a genius, but because the writer writes him as capable of it. As indeed Ares could be.

Putting the quote marks on there doesn't make equating Lex with a grounded war story any less questionable. Yes he's not a God, but he is a comic book supervillain like Dr. Doom. The soldiers who Diana is engaging with are not geniuses capable of throwing together weapons that can harm Gods. The story could maybe be written with them having access to them, but then you run the risk of making it an over the top superhero war story that renders the backdrop meaningless because it doesn't reflect our real world wars. Comparing Lex and Ares as nemeses is not the issue. Ares is not the human soldiers, he's agitating the conflict, which is not something Diana can just solve with her powers. It'd be insulting if she (or any superhero) could.

Yes, thank you for actually proving my point. Diana can fight a god to a standstill but she struggles with human beings with guns and tanks. Even though I could easily pull out several stories from the last ten years where she has held whole armies at bay.

The only point that is proven is that super powers are nebulous and as the plot demands, and have been since the beginning for all superheroes. Diana is swifter than Mercury, yet Priscilla Rich can outrun her. Rucka had her defeat the Shaggy Man (a JL level threat) single handed while also getting shot by Maru and her man made artillery, which put her down for a couple minutes. In the Perez origin story, she couldn't open the steel door Tolivar was hiding behind soon after she decapitated Deimos, and seemingly forgot she could fly when the Amazons of the Bana ambushed her on the ground while she was trying to save their queen from the Cheetah.

The one has nothing to do with the other. The scene in the movie is part of her growing into her powers. You can see throughout the story how her power level increases.

This book isn’t set in that situation at all. She supposed to be operating at her fully powered level. Since I wasn’t even talking about the movie in the post you quoted, I’m not sure why you’re bringing it up.

Kjn mentioned the "reaching her limits" bit in the context of the No Man's Land scene, not the comic book scenes. So I thought you were arguing against that, in which case, my mistake.

[starlight25]

Putting the quote marks on there doesn't make equating Lex with a grounded war story any less questionable. Yes he's not a God, but he is a comic book supervillain like Dr. Doom. The soldiers who Diana is engaging with are not geniuses capable of throwing together weapons that can harm Gods. The story could maybe be written with them having access to them, but then you run the risk of making it an over the top superhero war story that renders the backdrop meaningless because it doesn't reflect our real world wars. Comparing Lex and Ares as nemeses is not the issue. Ares is not the human soldiers, he's agitating the conflict, which is not something Diana can just solve with her powers. It'd be insulting if she (or any superhero) could.




The only point that is proven is that super powers are nebulous and as the plot demands, and have been since the beginning for all superheroes. Diana is swifter than Mercury, yet Priscilla Rich can outrun her. Rucka had her defeat the Shaggy Man (a JL level threat) single handed while also getting shot by Maru and her man made artillery, which put her down for a couple minutes. In the Perez origin story, she couldn't open the steel door Tolivar was hiding behind soon after she decapitated Deimos, and seemingly forgot she could fly when the Amazons of the Bana ambushed her on the ground while she was trying to save their queen from the Cheetah.




Kjn mentioned the "reaching her limits" bit in the context of the No Man's Land scene, not the comic book scenes. So I thought you were arguing against that, in which case, my mistake.

I don't see other heros powers fluctuating as much as current WW.

In Perez. She was once again well balanced between compoassion and power. She had no problem dealing with the Bana amazons. She also was tired and affected by the fight with Demios when she had trouble with the steel door.

[starlight25]

Finally got a chance to read this, and I thought it was great.

Art was far preferable to Nord. It reminded me a little bit of Bilquis Evely (one of my favorite WW artists), but sadly it doesn't look like it's a permanent change.

The story was fantastic. It's very clear that Wilson is taking inspiration from the Wonder Woman film. And that's awesome, because the WW film was fantastic. This comic version reads absolutely like Gal Gadot.

I'm also loving Aphrodite's characterization, and seeing her turn rockets into flowers was a treat. The whole story concept of Love & War and both Aphrodite and Ares reflecting on what their roles mean is super interesting and I'm surprised it has taken this long to see something like this.

So yeah, I rated it a four only because I feel like it drags in a few places and then feels rushed in a couple others, but as a whole I found it very enjoyable and I'm constantly excited for the next issue.

Comic WW is not coming of age like in the movie. She is not supposed to struggle with soldiers and tanks.

[starlight25]

See, here's the thing. I define Wonder Woman by her character first: how she acts towards others and how she chooses to resolve conflicts and problems. The superpowers are part of that, because it opens up new avenues and she can and will at any moment decide to use—or not use—those same superpowers. But the physical powers don't define what makes Wonder Woman unique for me.

To me, the peak Diana moment in the movie was "No Charlie, who will sing for us?", because it turned her compassion and empathy into a superpower.

Or as Gail Simone put it in Wonder Woman vol 3 #25: "Don't kill if you can wound, don't wound if you can subdue, don't subdue if you can pacify, and don't raise your hand at all until you've extended it."



Note "stopping it dead in its tracks". I'm sure Flash can disable the missile, but now he has a one-tonne lump of metal moving at the speed of sound.

And here is the thing. I define Wonder Woman by her character AND power. Because both parts are important. There is no reason why we cant have both.

[brettc1]

Putting the quote marks on there doesn't make equating Lex with a grounded war story any less questionable. Yes he's not a God, but he is a comic book supervillain like Dr. Doom. The soldiers who Diana is engaging with are not geniuses capable of throwing together weapons that can harm Gods. The story could maybe be written with them having access to them, but then you run the risk of making it an over the top superhero war story that renders the backdrop meaningless because it doesn't reflect our real world wars. Comparing Lex and Ares as nemeses is not the issue. Ares is not the human soldiers, he's agitating the conflict, which is not something Diana can just solve with her powers. It'd be insulting if she (or any superhero) could.

Again you make my point for me. Lex Luthor and a Doctor Dooms minions are not geniuses either, but they are provided with things that give the heroes pause - weapons nor quite up to finishing off the hero but more fearsome than everyday ordinance.

Wilson makes no attempt to show that here, while in the meantime Aphrodite has no difficulty playing love and rockets.

The only point that is proven is that super powers are nebulous and as the plot demands, and have been since the beginning for all superheroes. Diana is swifter than Mercury, yet Priscilla Rich can outrun her. Rucka had her defeat the Shaggy Man (a JL level threat) single handed while also getting shot by Maru and her man made artillery, which put her down for a couple minutes. In the Perez origin story, she couldn't open the steel door Tolivar was hiding behind soon after she decapitated Deimos, and seemingly forgot she could fly when the Amazons of the Bana ambushed her on the ground while she was trying to save their queen from the Cheetah.

Most of these points are non starters. She’d just been pumped full of god venom in the Deimos instance, while in the shooting situation ignoring the sheer amazement that a person could get shot clean through the chest with a high Claire rifle bullet without hydrostatic shock destroying their internal organs.

Also - Perez, like John Byrne over in Superman, was writing a freshly rebooted hero at a power level lower than what they would eventually grow into. Wilson can’t exactly claim that excuse, though Robindon didnt do any favours there.

Personally I much prefer Orlando’s take of only a few months ago, where a villain hits Wonder Woman with the power of a solar flare and knows it will slow her down for minutes at best.

[WonderScott]

I just read #60 & #61 back-to-back and am enjoying and am intrigued by the mysterious status quo of the "New" Gods. Aphrodite strikes me as more interesting, and Ares as more one-note, but that may just be that we've seen very few stories involving Aphrodite over the decades.

I don't mind Wonder Woman questioning herself, but I prefer to see her a little more self-confident, even when plunging into the unknown as she did with Ares. She's incredibly skilled in dealing with new situations and information, because she knows herself very, very well, and some of that quality is getting lost here.

The best character moments and storyline has been the mythical beasts and Steve's journey to Aphrodite, to me. I hope some of that intrigue and characterization starts happening to Diana soon. Overall, I'm glad Steve is a major supporting character in the book again.

I gave it three stars as it's moving in the right direction with the backdrop of Diana's life, one supporting protagonist, the changing nature and grounding and mystery of the Olympians, new characters (the mythic beasts), and Xermanico's art.

What I need more of: Diana as a detective (e.g. the gods' new natures, how to return to Themyscira, etc.); Diana as self-assured, and equally proactive as reactive; and Diana's costumed, non-mythological foes starting some epically-designed plots, subplots, and other crazy ish against her. (Perhaps the changed personalities and avatars of the gods are part of the latter.)

(Side note: I hate it when Diana uses the lasso as a whip.)

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't see other heros powers fluctuating as much as current WW.

In Perez. She was once again well balanced between compoassion and power. She had no problem dealing with the Bana amazons. She also was tired and affected by the fight with Demios when she had trouble with the steel door.

She doesn't fluctuate much, if at all, within her own book currently. No more than usual.

She actually did struggle with the Bana Amazons. Why else did they overwhelm her and delay her from getting to Cheetah? Because of plot, Perez needed her on the ground and bombarded by Banas so she would be too late to prevent Minerva from dealing a killing blow to Anahid, so he nerfed her for a scene. And the tired excuse doesn't work there, because she was flying above the Banas and shooting arrows down at them before that and floated at various points during her fight with Cheetah. And Cheetah, demigod who can stand up to Wonder Woman who is in Superman's weight class, is held at bay by machine gun fire while Diana draws out the poison dart Chuma shot her with.

Honestly, she has a better reason for being on the ground here. Kjn nailed it when they said that Diana is a teacher and puts herself with the civilians so she can show them how to survive when she's not there. She tells the PM to "step where I step," and teaching the kids is vitally important. In the original Wonder Woman #13, she told the citizens of Eveland "you saved yourselves! I just showed you that you could!" The DC superheroes constantly struggle with the dilemma of doing too much, because then the human race becomes a joke that survive or accomplish anything on its own.