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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Despite all of this would you all want to see Perez back on Wonder Woman? All I would due with some of his characters is deage them

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    I'm not sure Pérez can write a Wonder Woman that fits today, and he has had a celebrated five-year-run that left a lasting impression on the character. I would certainly welcome a short run or an elseworlds story, or him drawing for some other writer, but not as an ongoing writer.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    How many well regarded stories does she have period? She's got plenty of average or terrible stories related to myth as well.
    Didn’t say otherwise. But there are more average or bad stories with sci fi elements in her mythos.


    I mean, Amazons Attack! uses the Amazons obviously.
    As well as numerous other characters from the DCU.

    Space stories are not incompatible with Diana because she does it when she's with the JLA and her creator wrote her into outer space adventures.
    Batman doesn’t typically do space stuff outside of the Justice League and as I said, most of her space stories are either bad or average.

    It's the writer's job to tell a good story within an established status quo. How does that mean that the status quo and editorial edicts in place are automatically good? If they wanted to shift focus away from all the other locations and characters she used to interact with that weren't related to myth...then they simply had to ignore them for the time being. Making it so they never existed is short sighted and kind of rude to all the writers who are going to come after you, because maybe the want to use them?
    And yet, when writers where given the freedom to do whenever they wanted, they mostly or completely stuck with the myth stuff.
    Also, how is it rude? Pretty much every writer for the Big 2 ends up limited in what they’re allowed to use, typically by the editors.


    Same with the romance with Steve, it'd be easier to just not write the romance if he wasn't interested, but leave it on the table if later writers were interested. He made it impossible.
    And what of the other writers who weren’t interested in the relationship? Surely their opinions matter too.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    The first thing Messner-Loebs did in his run was to send out Diana into space with a Russian kosmonaut, becoming a space pirate and leading a slave rebellion. The story seed was awesome, the worldbuilding solid; what was lacking was storytelling execution and consistency. So I see no reason for why you can't successfully do space adventures with Diana.

    Now, Wonder Woman isn't as suited for space adventures as Superman, just as Superman isn't as suited for mythological or high fantasy stuff. And among the Trinity, Wonder Woman is uniquely suited for moral tales and looking critically at our society. Batman is on top of it and protects it, and Superman was immersed in it from birth. Diana is much more of an outsider in social mores and values than either of them.

    As for a writer not being interested in the Steve Trevor–Diana relationship? If you're doing a short or even medium-term run, just don't go there. Neither Orlando nor Tynion had Steve in their issues at all during their short runs last year, and it didn't hurt Steve any.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Didn’t say otherwise. But there are more average or bad stories with sci fi elements in her mythos.
    Probably because there isn't a lot of great writing on this title in general, so when sci stories do show up, odds are good that they are going to be poor.
    The solution is to get better writers, some of whom may want to experiment with putting her in different genres, rather than limiting the genres she can appear in. That hurts the character for no reason other than a fear that bad writing might happen, but that can happen regardless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    As well as numerous other characters from the DCU.
    Irrelevant. It's centered around the Amazons, public domain figures from myth, and is therefore a Wonder Woman story first and foremost. And as a single story, it is perhaps worse than any outer space adventure she's ever had. The solution is not to prevent writers from using Amazons and myth, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Batman doesn’t typically do space stuff outside of the Justice League and as I said, most of her space stories are either bad or average.
    Batman is not a superhuman. It's better to compare her to Superman or Captain Marvel/Shazam, whom she was designed to be like. She is designed to have a wider variety of bigger stories than Batman.
    Most superhero stories in general are bad or average.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And yet, when writers where given the freedom to do whenever they wanted, they mostly or completely stuck with the myth stuff.
    Also, how is it rude? Pretty much every writer for the Big 2 ends up limited in what they’re allowed to use, typically by the editors.
    It all depends on how reasonable those editorial edicts are. The company deciding to move away from of the sillier elements of its past is one thing, as is deciding to put most of the focus on myth related stuff in WW's case in the 80s. Making it so all that stuff never existed period, and making it impossible to even reference, is another. Especially since it wasn't a full continuity reboot and tried to act like the full history is intact. You cannot have it both ways.

    It's rude towards the previous creators, and it's rude in that future creators may see value in things you don't, and you just made it very difficult for them to use it simply because you didn't want to. If you don't want Wonder Woman visiting Queen Atomia's world because it doesn't fit in with the "Myth only!" stance, then simply don't write any stories with Atomia. Don't make it so she never existed in the first place, because now a future writer will have to go through the trouble of re-establishing her or doing a convoluted retcon to get her back in. Same with Supergirl, Krypto, the Phantom Zone criminals and the Kandor citizens in Superman: all that stuff was on its way out anyway, post-Crisis erasing them was a step to far and messed up the history.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And what of the other writers who weren’t interested in the relationship? Surely their opinions matter too.
    Their opinions matter. Which is why they should be allowed to not write Steve into their stories if they don't want. Or break them up and change their dynamic. But making it so the romantic history never existed? That's creating a convoluted mess that someone who wants to write Steve now has to untangle because the previous writer couldn't be arsed to just leave well enough alone and go around him. It's like when the pro-marriage fans say a writer can just choose not to write Lois or Mary Jane into a story instead of ending the marriages. This is the same, only more extreme.

  6. #36
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    I guess I just feel it's better to have one specific direction to focus which would limit the feeling that DC just throws stuff at the wall to see what sticks for WW.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-01-2019 at 10:35 AM.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I guess I just feel it's better to have one specific direction to focus which would limit the feeling that DC just throws stuff at the wall to see what sticks for WW.
    I think having specific directions for the properties helps. But it can be done in a less destructive way and can be done within the confines of continuity, which is how it always should be done. Chucking her entire history, starting over, and changing most of her lore and supporting cast while also narrowing things down is too much, and definitely contributed to nothing sticking for WW despite a sales boost and short term renewed interest. The COIE reboot, just by existing, gave permission for all subsequent reboots and retcons. Because if it can be done once, who is to say it cannot be done again? They opened Pandora's Box and we can never shut it again.

  8. #38

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    what are the TPBs for Perez's tenure that are recommended?

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    There is Cheetah's origin story, Who killed Myndi Mayer?

    I wonder does anyone else want Myndi Mayer to be brought back ? Diana does need a PR person

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    There is Cheetah's origin story, Who killed Myndi Mayer?

    I wonder does anyone else want Myndi Mayer to be brought back ? Diana does need a PR person
    I'd love Myndi to be brought back. She's pretty much the best part of that run aside from Phillipus and Barbara Minerva.

    Rucka also brought back Matthew Michaelis for Year One, but he was absent in the present day stories. I'd be curious to see whatever happened to him. Maybe he could join up with the Oddfellows?

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Okay how would she want her to be brought back?

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    what are the TPBs for Perez's tenure that are recommended?
    Here is a nice Wondy guide post-COIE, covering most runs and most of the standalones. The guide to Pérez.

    In any case, Gods and Mortals and Challenge of the Gods should be mandatory reading for any Wonder Woman fan. While far from perfect, they are arguably the seminal stories for modern Wonder Woman, and everything that has come after has touched on them, for good or ill.

  13. #43
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    I think ultimately he hindered Diana. Getting rid of Steve as her boyfriend, and a job as Diana Prince, made it easy for pretty much every writer afterward to jettison her location and supporting cast.

    I think turning her into an Olympian champion with the blessings of 6 goddesses and gods made her like Shazam lite. We never really knew exactly what her mission was- to bring unity between the sexes? To promote the Olympians? To prevent the wrath of Ares? To be an ambassador for her nation and promote their ideals, which we never really heard about? Being a champion of love and wisdom against the forces of conflict is much easier concept to understand and execute.

    Making her an ambassador was a mistake as well. We rarely ever saw her in that capacity. Plus, along with the personality Perez gave her- that of a humorless, fun-less, sexless adolescent, created the perception she was a distant, speechifying scold.

    Getting rid of all the mythology surrounding the bracelets, as well as Amazon training, stripped her of what made her unique.

    I think it was a great time to do a Wonder Woman revamp, seeing as how poorly her book was doing before Crisis, and having a superstar like Perez gave her the attention she deserved. I just think he threw out too much of what came before and unnecessarily complicated her mythos. That most of these things have eventually returned- Steve as love interest, Aphrodite as preeminent goddess, the "unleashed power" when her bracelets are removed, are all signs of what had been missing in the book over the years.

    I also wish they had kept Mindy Newell from pre-Crisis as his co-writer. I recently read the 3 issues she wrote before the Crisis and they were amazing. When Perez wrote his own plots he tended to get overlong and overcomplicated and dull. Newell would have been (and was) great to pick through all that confusing stuff to find the clear and true story he was trying to tell.

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Okay how would she want her to be brought back?
    I'd be happy with her just being alive and given a second shot. I don't know if just making her death story canon again will work since the context will be different (Year One is a different foundation story than Gods and Mortals, which Myndi debuted in the aftermath of), and Diana needs a more stable supporting cast, so leaving Myndi dead might not be a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanT View Post
    I think it was a great time to do a Wonder Woman revamp, seeing as how poorly her book was doing before Crisis, and having a superstar like Perez gave her the attention she deserved. I just think he threw out too much of what came before and unnecessarily complicated her mythos. That most of these things have eventually returned- Steve as love interest, Aphrodite as preeminent goddess, the "unleashed power" when her bracelets are removed, are all signs of what had been missing in the book over the years.

    I also wish they had kept Mindy Newell from pre-Crisis as his co-writer. I recently read the 3 issues she wrote before the Crisis and they were amazing. When Perez wrote his own plots he tended to get overlong and overcomplicated and dull. Newell would have been (and was) great to pick through all that confusing stuff to find the clear and true story he was trying to tell.
    I think the bracelet thing may be best left in the past, or at least tooled around with before being used. It has some unfortunate undertones, like that women can't handle power or that they become more "masculine" because such berserker rages are something only men are capable of. It was kind of insulting to both sexes. However, I do like her submitting to the bracelets because it shows she is disciplined and responsible in the use of her power. Maybe Amazon training allows them to unlock a "Super Saiyan" type mode that she can access when the bracelets are removed? Kind of like God mode, but without the ties to Zeus. Untrained Amazons (or anybody who adopts the training) would be overwhelmed with the Godlike power at their disposal, which is why it would need to be tempered.

    I agree about Newell. I think the writing in the Perez run started to get better around the time the art took a dive. The art he drew himself in the first two years was gorgeous, but the stories were a slog to get through. Newell co-wrote the Feast of Five arc the second Silver Swan story, and I think they're stronger because they are just good stories without the need to set up anything or change the mythos around.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanT View Post
    I think ultimately he hindered Diana. Getting rid of Steve as her boyfriend, and a job as Diana Prince, made it easy for pretty much every writer afterward to jettison her location and supporting cast.

    I think turning her into an Olympian champion with the blessings of 6 goddesses and gods made her like Shazam lite. We never really knew exactly what her mission was- to bring unity between the sexes? To promote the Olympians? To prevent the wrath of Ares? To be an ambassador for her nation and promote their ideals, which we never really heard about? Being a champion of love and wisdom against the forces of conflict is much easier concept to understand and execute.

    Making her an ambassador was a mistake as well. We rarely ever saw her in that capacity. Plus, along with the personality Perez gave her- that of a humorless, fun-less, sexless adolescent, created the perception she was a distant, speechifying scold.

    Getting rid of all the mythology surrounding the bracelets, as well as Amazon training, stripped her of what made her unique.

    I think it was a great time to do a Wonder Woman revamp, seeing as how poorly her book was doing before Crisis, and having a superstar like Perez gave her the attention she deserved. I just think he threw out too much of what came before and unnecessarily complicated her mythos. That most of these things have eventually returned- Steve as love interest, Aphrodite as preeminent goddess, the "unleashed power" when her bracelets are removed, are all signs of what had been missing in the book over the years.

    I also wish they had kept Mindy Newell from pre-Crisis as his co-writer. I recently read the 3 issues she wrote before the Crisis and they were amazing. When Perez wrote his own plots he tended to get overlong and overcomplicated and dull. Newell would have been (and was) great to pick through all that confusing stuff to find the clear and true story he was trying to tell.
    He could have done some things better. But overall he did a very good job. Diana was compassionate yet powerful, brave yet had insecurities but also had the will to fight against them. There was a good balance between the warrior and diplomat. Her villains were very competent and they were real threats. Overall, Perez respected her verse far more than new 52 and rebirth have.

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