X-Continuity: the X-Men Movie Timeline website finally fixing all mistakes!

[Mutant 77]

Why are we still trying to make sense of this?

Because I did it. And it's fun.

[WebLurker]

1- Maybe Emma Frost scanned his (Shaw's) mind only some days after the "Russian" claiming, or she did not dare to do that at all. We don't know how telepaths use to do, their "ethics".

Anything is possible, however I guess that I think that it's more plausible that Shaw was telling the truth about the helmet's origins then not. I mean, in theory, he could still have been a time-traveller and got the helmet in the "present" day of First Class.

2- I know where you're coming from. "First Class" can fit into the original trilogy better, despite its retcons... it's a "soft reboot", indeed. "Bumblebee" is much more distant from its original saga. Did you mean that, basically?

Yeah, basically. Esp. with Days of Future Past doing a crossover, everything really feels like it's supposed to go together, even if there are a few places where stuff doesn't match up. In general, most of First Class's conflicts are in the minor details, allowing the broad overall stories to flow together. While I have gathered that the people making the movie weren't worried about contradictions if they thought something would make their movie better, it does feel like it was supposed to be an actual prequel.

I really haven't seen much of the Transformers movies beyond Bumblebee (I saw first chunk of the original a long time ago and random clips from all of them on YouTube sometimes and know most everything else I know thanks to being bored and having internet access) -- and I do like the Bumblebee movie a lot, so I'm not so much railing on it but just using it as a case study for my point regarding movie series where internal continuity is kinda fluid.

While Bumblebee is ostensibly a prequel to the original movies, it kinda makes those stories impossible to happen. I mean, the fact that Sector Seven made a deal with the Decepticons to acquire Cybertronian technology means the first movie (where Sector Seven was successfully reverse engineering Megatron and the Allspark cube for decades) is derailed and the premise that Bumblebee depicts 1987 as first contact between between Earth and Cyberton wipes everything else out (my understanding is that every sequel movie is about how Transformers were shaping our history since literally day one and how the the artifacts they left come back to haunt the present).

Now, there could be ways to rationalize this stuff away to put everything on one timeline. But the really interesting thing is that it appears that the major discrepancies were the result of revisions late in the game. According to a Transformers forum user who claimed to have seen an early rough cut of the film, the early version had Transformers as a known element to Sector Seven, which would fit with the original movies' backstory and eliminated the idea that the solo movie showed Bumblebee's first arrival on Earth. In fact, this early version lasted long enough that the prequel comic (which I never read) was built to tie into this version instead of the actual film. Even the junior novelization had some nods to the idea that Sector Seven had past dealings with Transformers.

The end result is that despite the movie being marketed like a prequel, I think that it seems to be designed to function as a reboot in practice. I'd actually prefer if the future movies ignore the originals and do their own thing. While it remains to be seen if subsequent movies will try to tie things together, I think that this's what it looks like when a film series doesn't care whether everything fits together (which is not the same thing about whether a movie is well-made, which Bumblebee was), which isn't what the X-Men movies seem to do.

Long story short, stuff like this is why I tend to cut the X-Men movies a little slack. I think we're supposed to see them as one and since the essentials are there, I'm willing to forgive a few bumps and don't see the need to add our own stories to the mix, if that makes any sense.

[Mutant 77]

Anything is possible, however I guess that I think that it's more plausible that Shaw was telling the truth about the helmet's origins then not. I mean, in theory, he could still have been a time-traveller and got the helmet in the "present" day of First Class.



Yeah, basically. Esp. with Days of Future Past doing a crossover, everything really feels like it's supposed to go together, even if there are a few places where stuff doesn't match up. In general, most of First Class's conflicts are in the minor details, allowing the broad overall stories to flow together. While I have gathered that the people making the movie weren't worried about contradictions if they thought something would make their movie better, it does feel like it was supposed to be an actual prequel.


While Bumblebee is ostensibly a prequel to the original movies, it kinda makes those stories impossible to happen. I mean, the fact that Sector Seven made a deal with the Decepticons to acquire Cybertronian technology means the first movie (where Sector Seven was successfully reverse engineering Megatron and the Allspark cube for decades) is derailed and the premise that Bumblebee depicts 1987 as first contact between between Earth and Cyberton wipes everything else out (my understanding is that every sequel movie is about how Transformers were shaping our history since literally day one and how the the artifacts they left come back to haunt the present).



The end result is that despite the movie being marketed like a prequel, I think that it seems to be designed to function as a reboot in practice. I'd actually prefer if the future movies ignore the originals and do their own thing. While it remains to be seen if subsequent movies will try to tie things together, I think that this's what it looks like when a film series doesn't care whether everything fits together (which is not the same thing about whether a movie is well-made, which Bumblebee was), which isn't what the X-Men movies seem to do.

1- Hell yes. Why not? The helmet could still be a "Russian" invention, and Shaw just shaped it as Magneto's helmet (from his timeline, the original one) in a retrofitting way. The paradox is still on there.

2- In truth, general public love the X-Men movies and just don't care or even notice the contradictions. Truly. I think Internet and Internet nerds tend to magnify everything. Geez, even the MCU is starting to show some continuity problems, and they just pretend the entire Iron Man trilogy + Avengers 1 occurred in a ridiculously short timespan of 2 years. Give me a break.

3- I just loved the Megatron "retroengineering" thing back in 2007, it was one of the most brilliant aspects of the first movie. In truth, "Bumblebee" sounds like a hard reboot, differently than "First Class".
The movie is not a big success, so I don't know about the sequels. Too bad. I must confess you that the Ark backstory is STILL one of the most fascinating concepts of G1, and I hope they will readapt it for the big screen in a future reboot.

[WebLurker]

1- Hell yes. Why not? The helmet could still be a "Russian" invention, and Shaw just shaped it as Magneto's helmet (from his timeline, the original one) in a retrofitting way. The paradox is still on there.

One question regarding that theory: Why would Shaw model it after Magento's helmet if he never intended Mageneto to have it? There's also no indication that Shaw got to custom order it or anything, just that it was a Russian invention he got his hands on.

2- In truth, general public love the X-Men movies and just don't care or even notice the contradictions. Truly. I think Internet and Internet nerds tend to magnify everything.

Yeah, probably.

Geez, even the MCU is starting to show some continuity problems, and they just pretend the entire Iron Man trilogy + Avengers 1 occurred in a ridiculously short timespan of 2 years. Give me a break.

All long-running series get them, even stuff where the Powers That Be make a point of keeping stuff consistent. In the case of the two years thing, I might grant them that, since IM2, Hulk, and Thor were happening at the same time and the first Captain America movie has very little set in the present. Mileage may vary.

3- I just loved the Megatron "retroengineering" thing back in 2007, it was one of the most brilliant aspects of the first movie.

I don't know if I saw that far when I saw what little I did. While I have gathered that the original is considered the best of the Bay-directed ones, I have to admit that I've never really had the desire to see it (again in full?); while it might've played better, I've also gathered that the worst excesses and problems the series had did come from there. I never really cottoned to the Bay movies robots designs very much and Megatron's was one that I found really offputting, based on stills and clips). To each their own.

In truth, "Bumblebee" sounds like a hard reboot, differently than "First Class".

That seems to be the big question, is it a reboot of some kind (either a hard one or one that'll get grandfathered into a new series) or a prequel that adds more continuity errors into a series already noted for the lack of internal consistency? Cases can be made either way (there are both contradictions and references to the other movies) and it would be foolish to deny that at least some stuff could be explained away. I personally think, based on what I know of the other movies, that so much backstory is contradicted that Bumblebee might as well be its own thing, since pretty much none of the other movie could happen or would have to be retconned so much that nothing would make sense. (Granted, I'm mostly going off of hearsay, so if I ever had reason to see the others, I might change my position and I have seen reasonable arguments made against it being a reboot).

As far as I can tell, the people directly working on Bumblebee tended to make it with the idea that it was its own thing (at least in terms of the story they were going to tell) but still did include the nods to the originals and overall series supervisor seems to essentially be saying that the movie paves the way for the kinds of movies to be made in the future, but leaving the canon question open-ended. I have seen the director quoted as apparently saying that the studio is keeping their options open between series continuation and reboot until they have all the data from Bumblebee's release to analyze. So, I'm not sure we can say for sure yet what the official verdict is (assuming that they give one at all and don't decide to make the movies they want let fans decide what to make of it all). At the end of the day, I think the lesson from Bumblebee is that the movie worked because it was good and people enjoyed it because of that, with the questions of how it fit into the larger franchise being left for cooler room talk (heck, most of the time when I've seen reviews that mention the internal consistencies the movie makes, it's either written off as irrelevant or met with praise that the Bay movies were ignored overall).

That said, I would like to know if the reboot question gets settled or not, because I do have an interest in that sort of thing and it would be nice to know what kinds of guidelines future movies will have (e.g. will Megatron be off limits in order keep him where he was in the original movies, or could they bring him back for a new story in a new way)?

The movie is not a big success, so I don't know about the sequels.

Well, it's still going, seems to be doing decent business internationally, was a critical success, and the smaller budget does mean a larger profit margin. That could work in its favor. The director, writer, and actors playing Charlie and Agent Burns have stated that they would like make a sequel or be in future movies. The Powers That Be have stated that it could get a sequel if it's financially successful enough. So, I guess it could be possible. If nothing else, it still might be worth their while to keep it running even if the last movie isn't a smash (my understanding is that an Optimus Prime solo film and some kind of "normal" Transformers film, not the canceled Last Knight followup, are on the drawing board and a War for Cyberton movie has been proposed).

Too bad. I must confess you that the Ark backstory is STILL one of the most fascinating concepts of G1, and I hope they will readapt it for the big screen in a future reboot.

Not so familiar about the Ark thing (although I do recognize the name). If I'm right that it was the main escape ship the Autobots used to come to Earth, I'm not sure it really has a role to play in the movies to date. Bumblebee shows them traveling in little escape pods and I think the original movies did much the same (I do remember the bit in the '07 movie where we see them landing and finding vehicles to scan for their secondary forms). Irregardless if the future of the franchise is some kind of continuation of the Bay-directed iteration or if Bumblebee will become the start of something new, I'm not sure that the Ark story (stories?) are in line. Course, if they do decide to make a movie that stands in its own world, a la the planned DC Elseworlds movies vs. the DCEU, I guess anything's up for grabs.

Actually, the stuff I'd most like to see them do in the franchise's future would be to make a Bumblebee sequel (with the leads reprising their roles; they were the best part of the film and the thing I latched onto the most) and that Cybertron war idea (the opening prologue was a highlight and I'd love to see a movie using that design and CGI style).

[Mutant 77]

One question regarding that theory: Why would Shaw model it after Magento's helmet if he never intended Mageneto to have it? There's also no indication that Shaw got to custom order it or anything, just that it was a Russian invention he got his hands on.




I have seen the director quoted as apparently saying that the studio is keeping their options open between series continuation and reboot until they have all the data from Bumblebee's release to analyze.



Not so familiar about the Ark thing (although I do recognize the name). If I'm right that it was the main escape ship the Autobots used to come to Earth, I'm not sure it really has a role to play in the movies to date. Bumblebee shows them traveling in little escape pods and I think the original movies did much the same (I do remember the bit in the '07 movie where we see them landing and finding vehicles to scan for their secondary forms). Irregardless if the future of the franchise is some kind of continuation of the Bay-directed iteration or if Bumblebee will become the start of something new, I'm not sure that the Ark story (stories?) are in line. Course, if they do decide to make a movie that stands in its own world, a la the planned DC Elseworlds movies vs. the DCEU, I guess anything's up for grabs.

Actually, the stuff I'd most like to see them do in the franchise's future would be to make a Bumblebee sequel (with the leads reprising their roles; they were the best part of the film and the thing I latched onto the most) and that Cybertron war idea (the opening prologue was a highlight and I'd love to see a movie using that design and CGI style).

1- Generally speaking, Shaw was obsessed with Magneto and altered his history. That's why he interacted with Erik in 1944.
The helmet protected Shaw from telepathy. If the "Russian invention" was a lie, Shaw just repainted the helmet with silver and used it.

2- I think they should have made "Bumblebee" a full reboot and go with it and just declare the truth to the entire world. I don't like cops-out like that. Fox did the same with "First Class", all in all. It was a reboot disguised as prequel, but they didn't care to say that. I don't like this politics.

3- The Ark thing is gone. It was one of the best aspects of Transformers G1. Now that Bumble and some others already landed on Earth in 1987, it cannot be done anymore. Too bad.

[WebLurker]

1- Generally speaking, Shaw was obsessed with Magneto and altered his history. That's why he interacted with Erik in 1944.
The helmet protected Shaw from telepathy. If the "Russian invention" was a lie, Shaw just repainted the helmet with silver and used it.

Seems kinda needlessly convoluted (and I do realize we're discussing a scenario where Shaw was using time travel tech to claim the whole bone pile in the past, but still...). I'm also not sure if Shaw had any respect for the helmet; in the film proper, when he attacks the CIA base the mutant recruits are in, he says something to the effect of "Well, the telepath's gone so I don't have to wear this stupid helmet anymore." He may have prized Magneto himself as a great test subject (or as a mutant warrior, if we're talking about the time travel scenario), but he seems to really have considered the helmet to be nothing more then a tool that he'd've preferred to not need.

2- I think they should have made "Bumblebee" a full reboot and go with it and just declare the truth to the entire world. I don't like cops-out like that. Fox did the same with "First Class", all in all. It was a reboot disguised as prequel, but they didn't care to say that. I don't like this politics.

I personally agree I'd rather the movie be a reboot then a prequel that supposed to connect to the originals (however strongly or loosely). On the other hand, I can see that leaving it up in the air could be to the studio's advantage; had the movie been a total flop, they could write it off as the last gasp of the Michael Bay series and market any future projects as fresh starts untainted by the previous films. If it was a success, they could choose to go the reboot route or keep everything in one film continuity depending on what suited their needs best. I do get that the Bay Transformers movies do have a foul reputation and are shorthand for "bad movies that still sell," but they still have their fans. Odds are that there are fans would would prefer it if Bumblebee was part of the series that meant something to them.

Even though I'm not a huge Transformers fan, I can understand the mindset; I'm a Trekkie, primarily of the so-called prime universe stuff (basically the original iteration of the franchise that everything but the JJ Abrams' movie trilogy is part of). While I would be interested in anything Star Trek irregardless of whether it was part of that continuity (I'm not fond of the first two Abrams' movies mostly because I didn't like the stories or the reimagining, but found Beyond captured what I liked about the franchise in a new way), I was pleased when it was announced that Discovery would be prime universe, since that meant it would be part of the version of Star Trek that meant the most to me. Granted, the news that, a bit like Bumblebee or First Class, DSC kinda creates continuity errors has worn a bit of that excitement off (I have yet to see it), but I think the overall point holds.

There are people who would rather it be its own thing and I guess leaving it up to the person to decide does mean you don't alienate anyone in the here and now.

Also, I'm not sure the movie has suffered any by leaving the reboot question open ended. While it's not exactly lighting the box office on fire, it has been going relatively steady and has cracked into the international market. Reviews have been good. I think the odds of getting a sequel and/or more movies are greater then or equal to the odds of not. The upshot of the marketing and statements from the directors, while leaving the door open for it being a prequel, seemed to be the idea: "just enjoy the story for what it is and don't worry too much about the other ones." As the DCEU has shown, there is something to be said taking things slow and not getting to far ahead of yourself.

3- The Ark thing is gone. It was one of the best aspects of Transformers G1. Now that Bumble and some others already landed on Earth in 1987, it cannot be done anymore. Too bad.

What exactly was the Ark and what about it would've made for good stories? I know it was an Autobot ship of significance, but I have really no experience with G1, so I think I'm missing something here.

[Mutant 77]

Seems kinda needlessly convoluted (and I do realize we're discussing a scenario where Shaw was using time travel tech to claim the whole bone pile in the past, but still...). I'm also not sure if Shaw had any respect for the helmet; in the film proper, when he attacks the CIA base the mutant recruits are in, he says something to the effect of "Well, the telepath's gone so I don't have to wear this stupid helmet anymore." He may have prized Magneto himself as a great test subject (or as a mutant warrior, if we're talking about the time travel scenario), but he seems to really have considered the helmet to be nothing more then a tool that he'd've preferred to not need.




What exactly was the Ark and what about it would've made for good stories? I know it was an Autobot ship of significance, but I have really no experience with G1, so I think I'm missing something here.

1- It's not convoluted like you think. Shaw was interested into Erik/Magneto and his powers. He wanted soldier on Erik for his mutant crusade since 1944, but his approach was wrong and that turned Erik into his biggest archenemy. "Magneto" is not the helmet. The helmet is just a tool. That's it. He doesn't care about the helmet, but he stole it from his future in order to shield himself from any telepath out there. Shaw had secrets.

2- It was cool to think the Transformers crashed on Earth in the prehistoric eras, and the Ark lied embedded into the Mount St. Hilary (Oregon) for millions of years, until the Teletraan computer awoke for pure accident. I loved that.

[WebLurker]

1- It's not convoluted like you think. Shaw was interested into Erik/Magneto and his powers. He wanted soldier on Erik for his mutant crusade since 1944, but his approach was wrong and that turned Erik into his biggest archenemy. "Magneto" is not the helmet. The helmet is just a tool. That's it. He doesn't care about the helmet, but he stole it from his future in order to shield himself from any telepath out there. Shaw had secrets.

Maybe?

2- It was cool to think the Transformers crashed on Earth in the prehistoric eras, and the Ark lied embedded into the Mount St. Hilary (Oregon) for millions of years, until the Teletraan computer awoke for pure accident. I loved that.

Fair enough if you like it, but I guess from a narrative standpoint I don't see that much of a difference between that and having them come in the present day; they're both just ways to get them to Earth.

[Mutant 77]

Maybe?



Fair enough if you like it, but I guess from a narrative standpoint I don't see that much of a difference between that and having them come in the present day; they're both just ways to get them to Earth.

1- Of course, it's my scenario, but not impossible... and it works so fine. After all, Shaw wasn't there when the 1944's flashback played out at the beginning of "X-Men", in original trilogy.

2- Yeah, but it's infinitely LESS fascinating.

[WebLurker]

1- Of course, it's my scenario, but not impossible... and it works so fine. After all, Shaw wasn't there when the 1944's flashback played out at the beginning of "X-Men", in original trilogy.

True, but the First Class version of the scene is a surprisingly faithful recreation of the original, save for the Shaw bit, that I think the intent was that he was "always' there, we just didn't see him watching before. (Granted, it is an amusing observation in the context of the time travel theory.)

2- Yeah, but it's infinitely LESS fascinating.

I guess I'm not enough of a Transformers fan to appreciate that.

[Mutant 77]

True, but the First Class version of the scene is a surprisingly faithful recreation of the original, save for the Shaw bit, that I think the intent was that he was "always' there, we just didn't see him watching before. (Granted, it is an amusing observation in the context of the time travel theory.)

Yeah, it's almost like saying: "Hello guys... it seems the same prologue from X1, but it's NOT: there's an intruder from the future, ready to mix the cards".

[Mutant 77]

New feedback is welcomed, of course.

[Mutant 77]

Well, cool enough:

In the Rogue's Cut, two sisters for Peter Maximoff/Quicksilver are referenced. That's great! Bingo.
Indeed, in "X2" (Timeline Prime Alpha), there are two "Maximoff" persons listed on Stryker's files: Peter's sisters (mutant as well), who came into existence despite their brother had never been conceived - that will happen when the timeline is altered by Sebastian Shaw in various ways.
Thus, in Timeline Prime Alpha, the DOFP Quicksilver was never born; Erik/Magneto had a speedster son with an unspecified woman in the late sixties (maybe 1969) whom I named: "Peter Lehnsherr". He is the Quicksilver featured on "X-Men Origins" (set in 1983).
Eureka!

[WebLurker]

Well, cool enough:

In the Rogue's Cut, two sisters for Peter Maximoff/Quicksilver are referenced. That's great! Bingo.
Indeed, in "X2" (Timeline Prime Alpha), there are two "Maximoff" persons listed on Stryker's files: Peter's sisters (mutant as well), who came into existence despite their brother had never been conceived - that will happen when the timeline is altered by Sebastian Shaw in various ways.
Thus, in Timeline Prime Alpha, the DOFP Quicksilver was never born; Erik/Magneto had a speedster son with an unspecified woman in the late sixties (maybe 1969) whom I named: "Peter Lehnsherr". He is the Quicksilver featured on "X-Men Origins" (set in 1983).
Eureka!

I'm confused on two points; where was it established that Quicksilver didn't exist in X2 and where the heck was a Quicksilver in Origins: Wolverine?

[Mutant 77]

I'm confused on two points; where was it established that Quicksilver didn't exist in X2 and where the heck was a Quicksilver in Origins: Wolverine?

1- It wasn't. He wasn't there.

2- The Three Mile Island secret military base run by the "Weapon XI" Project was also a prison for a batch of young mutants to be used for future experimentation. The inmates:

Scott Summers
Emma Silverfox
Quicksilver - boy with white hair moving super-fast, but constrained by elastic chords.
Banshee - boy with red hair and his mouth blocked.
Kwannon - asian girl with purple streak in her hair.
Toad
Whirlwind
Dust

(p.s: please, if you rewatch the scene, could you even write on a paper the AGES they look like in your view? I'm compiling a new section of my site)