Fabian Nicieza confirms Iceman was meant to be gay as far back as the 90’s

[TheCape]

I seriously doubt that Nicieza is telling the truth about this, but eh what i do know.

Anyway, even if Bobby being gay is a retcon is not like it matters, i don't think that it makes the whole idea a bad one,retcons aren't inherently a bad thing many of the stuff that we like about modern characters are the result of retcons. Alfred being Bruce's father after the Wayne's death? that wasn't a thing until 1986, Lex Luthor being a corrupt business man? same, hell half of the stuff that people like about Wolverine are retcons. Some aspects of Matt Murdock are similar. Some of the things that i like about Norman Osborn (my favorite Spidey villain) are retcons too.

So, Bobby was a closeted gay man that repressed his true sexuality out fear, instead of just being manchild whose relationships failed because he really didn't know what to do with his life?, sure i can buy it, is not like is impossible to happen in real life, even in today society when we are more accepting of this sort of things, as someone that is not gay, i think that is good too see that kind of representation in comics, i wish that they have done a better job in the execution part because it was simply not a good one and feel more like Bendis whim that actually good storytelling. But some good stuff has come out of it, it wasn't my thing but i know that Sina Grace's Iceman has been very important for young men dealling with something similar in their life, is always good to see that kind of positive impact from our hobbies.

[scourge]

I most certainly can chose who I am attracted too. You may have a physical attraction to someone but chose not to act on it because something about them turns you off. That is a conscious decision and eventually over time, the physical attraction can fade.

That is not choosing who you're attracted to, just choosing not to act on it. Not even close to being the same thing.

[Wiccan]

If one day I have a flicker of attraction and within a short period of time, said attraction is gone because of conscious decisions I make then what do you call it?

Likewise, if you were not initially attracted to someone but over time you start to appreciate all the things they do for you and end up falling in love with them then what do you call that?

There are arranged marriages where people end up falling in love despite not initially being attracted to the individual. In my friends parents case, they admitted it took years. There is no way they would have been together without the arrangement so what is that if not a choice?

1 - I don't even know what are the supposed conscious decisions you could make. If you mean what you said on the other post, getting turned off after you find out more or they do something is not a decision, is a reaction.

2 - As you said, over time you end up falling in love because of what they do for you or whatever, not because you suddenly made the decision to like them when before you made a choice not to... I don't understand where is even the alleged choice on this.

3 - Do you think there are no other couples on arranged marriages that also try their best but it just doesn't happen for them? You can make the decision to try and build something, but whether you end up genuinely feeling love and/or attraction for the other is a possible consequence, not the choice itself.

[remydat]

That is not choosing who you're attracted to, just choosing not to act on it. Not even close to being the same thing.

No, not acting on it would be a situation where I was still attracted to the person but chose not to act on it. I am talking about a situation where the initial attraction is completely gone.

[scourge]

No, not acting on it would be a situation where I was still attracted to the person but chose not to act on it. I am talking about a situation where the initial attraction is completely gone.

Yeah, no. You're confusing two types of attraction. At least I hope its just confusion.

[remydat]

1 - I don't even know what are the supposed conscious decisions you could make. If you mean what you said on the other post, getting turned off after you find out more or they do something is not a decision, is a reaction.

2 - As you said, over time you end up falling in love because of what they do for you or whatever, not because you suddenly made the decision to like them when before you made a choice not to... I don't understand where is even the alleged choice on this.

3 - Do you think there are no other couples on arranged marriages that also try their best but it just doesn't happen for them? You can make the decision to try and build something, but whether you end up genuinely feeling love and/or attraction for the other is a possible consequence, not the choice itself.

1 - Simple example. You are in love with someone. They cheat on you. It is entirely your choice whether you chose to forgive them or not. If you chose forgiveness then you try to hold onto the good things. If you choose not to then you focus on the bad things including the cheating and eventually for some people the attraction goes away.

2 - You made the decision to acknowledge those things. People do stuff for others all the time. Sometimes we appreciate it and sometimes we don't.

3 - Of course there are some it doesn't happen for because I am not suggesting everyone has this capacity. I am speaking of myself and others I know that do. I am not one to be ruled by my emotions so if someone does something that irks me and I make the logical decision to not continue with that person then eventually my attraction to them is gone quite quickly. I am not someone who breaks something off and still has residual feelings. Whereas a lot of people still do.

Humans aren't hardwired the same way. Some people can't do what I suggest and some people can. It seems foreign to you because perhaps you aren't the way I am. Just as I find it odd when people can't let go of people because for me that has always been easy no matter how much I loved them. Probably one of the reasons I am so critical of Romy.

[Heroine Addict]

... even if Bobby being gay is a retcon is not like it matters...

... So, Bobby was a closeted gay man that repressed his true sexuality out fear, instead of just being manchild whose relationships failed because he really didn't know what to do with his life?...

I agree, it doesn't & SHOULDN'T matter, either way.

My point was, everything that happened in his stories before him being confirmed gay still did, in the same way. The events themselves remain unchanged, it's only how you can now view them (if ya already didn't) that has, as the second part of your quote solidly supports. Hence why it's more of a revelation, really, IMO. So far anyway, at this point. Maybe we'll get some hidden, past stories, in the future.

[remydat]

Yeah, no. You're confusing two types of attraction. At least I hope its just confusion.

Not at all. I am saying some people can cut off their attraction to others and some people can't. Your hubris is in thinking that the 7 billion people in this world all share your same hardwiring when it comes to attraction. They don't as I know for a fact I don't.

[Havok83]

That doesn't actually change the eye color. Just changes the appearance of you eyes but the eye color is still the same.

Surgery sure does

[scourge]

Not at all. I am saying some people can cut off their attraction to others and some people can't. Your hubris is in thinking that the 7 billion people in this world all share your same hardwiring when it comes to attraction. They don't as I know for a fact I don't.

Going ad hominem now?

But no, you are definitely going on about different types of attraction now. Sexual attraction and sexual orientation are entirely different beasts compared to the more specific and focused types of attraction you've been going on about.

[Mah VM]

I most certainly can chose who I am attracted too. You may have a physical attraction to someone but chose not to act on it because something about them turns you off. That is a conscious decision and eventually over time, the physical attraction can fade.

It's a conscious decision not to act on it (have sex with/date someone), I was talking about attraction. Attraction to someone fading just means you got over that person not that your attraction to that gender faded.

Sexuality being fluid doesn't explain away bisexuality so not even sure what you are talking about. You also have some people that move between those categories at different points in their lives. So yeah it is most certainly fluid.

So people who are attracted to men and women at different points in their lives? Yeah, we have a word for that. Some people just think bisexuality has to be 50/50 so instead of acknowledging that their ability to be attracted to men and women means they are bi regardless of what their sex/love life looks like, they choose to base their identity on the gender of the person they are currently dating or crushing on. They are well within their rights to self identify as they please but facts are facts.

Not at all. I am saying some people can cut off their attraction to others and some people can't. Your hubris is in thinking that the 7 billion people in this world all share your same hardwiring when it comes to attraction. They don't as I know for a fact I don't.

You are confusing someone getting over their romantic/sexual attraction to one person and moving on with people choosing who they are attracted to in general.

[remydat]

Going ad hominem now?

But no, you are definitely going on about different types of attraction now. Sexual attraction and sexual orientation are entirely different beasts compared to the more specific and focused types of attraction you've been going on about.

Not sure how. You are claiming I am confused and I am claiming you are guilty of hubris. Was your claim less of an ad hominem than mine?

As to your other point. Not really. The point was not everyone has this fixed state in terms of sexuality or attraction. If someone was say attracted exclusively to males in their 20s but now attracted to females now that they are in their 30s, what are they? They aren't really bisexual because their attraction to the different sexes didn't overlap. They legitimately were only attracted to one sex at a given period in their lives. Again, it is hubris to presume to know how 7 billion people feel. I have met people who most certainly from their perspective changed their attractions and I am not arrogant enough to tell them I understand their feelings better than they do.

[Coal Tiger]

Lots of people were shocked by the retcon like it or not

Doesn't make everyone who was shocked a homophobe or a "gater" of any sort

Obviously some people's reactions to it are extreme over the top vicious etc and those people actually are homophobes/"gaters" etc

But just finding the thing perplexing or sudden is pretty natural imo

Not saying that NOONE in the world got "gay" vibes off Iceman in the past or that people thought "hey what if..." etc

But it was NOT some kind of overwhelming consensus, that's revisionist history

Got to separate out these two concepts: 1) Do I personally like that Iceman is gay? vs. 2) Was he written as a gay character?

Those *might not have the same answer* and they don't have to.

Anyone who was shocked wasn't paying very close attention.

[Mah VM]

If someone was say attracted exclusively to males in their 20s but now attracted to females now that they are in their 30s, what are they?.

I'll take "Bi as f***" for $1000, Alex.

[remydat]

It's a conscious decision not to act on it (have sex with/date someone), I was talking about attraction. Attraction to someone fading just means you got over that person not that your attraction to that gender faded.

So people who are attracted to men and women at different points in their lives? Yeah, we have a word for that. Some people just think bisexuality has to be 50/50 so instead of acknowledging that their ability to be attracted to men and women means they are bi regardless of what their sex/love life looks like, they choose to base their identity on the gender of the person they are currently dating or crushing on. They are well within their rights to self identify as they please but facts are facts.

You are confusing someone getting over their romantic/sexual attraction to one person and moving on with people choosing who they are attracted to in general.

1. Again there is a difference between choosing not to act on something but still having feelings versus killing those feelings entirely.

2. Except it isn't a fact because these terms are human social constructs and as a result subjective. If someone goes 20 years being attracted to and dating only women and then 20 years being attracted to and dating only men then they are free to not really consider themselves to be bisexual since from their perspective, there was no overlap.

3. No same concept applies. Girl attracted to men. Girl finds sex with men abhorrent after being raped. Girl chooses to date only women. After a period a time not only does she chose to date women but she is no longer actually attracted to men. She does not consider herself bisexual as she no longer has any attraction to men.