Fabian Nicieza confirms Iceman was meant to be gay as far back as the 90’s

[CRaymond]

This thread knows exactly how gay Iceman should be.

Sina Grace needs to follow Steven Universe’s example.

[Hizashi]

Thanks for making these posts. Especially since I've seen other posts basically dismissing posts like this.

Like Elden, I didn't come out until I was 27, and that's when I started to live a gay lifestyle. I understand that there are people who look at the way Bobby acts and talks now and think "this is unrealistic". I look at it and think "That's just what I did/went through!"

As for the way Jean outed Bobby, that happens in the real world as well. I didn't come until until a straight friend said to me "I don't think you're going to be a happy person until you admit what it is you need to admit" and after that comment and encouragement, I came out.

There's no excuse for personal attacks, regardless of how someone feels about Iceman. Having said that, we all have individual experiences that inform our view of stories in general, not just Iceman's, but this thread is about him so I'll say this - while I'm not a gay man, I have had experiences that I could share, but I want to try to make my point without disclosing them. That's not because of shame or anything like that, but because I think my argument should be able to stand without my sharing an anecdote.

How Iceman was outed is still horrible to me - it wasn't Jean gently leading him to an admission that they'd all been waiting for, it was her insisting something that some in the fandom wanted. There isn't anything inherently wrong with wanting more gay characters, but Iceman's handling is an opportunity to learn what to avoid next time because it wasn't handled very well.

The last thing I'll say is that Iceman is fictional, a character; he was certainly not created with the narrative of coming out in mind, and I'm certain there were plenty of creators who didn't see it or ignored it. Northstar is the character y'all are thinking of. Iceman's situation is a retcon, a reveal that recontextualizes that "subtext" - and there's nothing wrong with that being the case, but there doesn't have to be some defense of the reveal as being planned for decades.

This thread knows exactly how gay Iceman should be.

Sina Grace needs to follow Steven Universe’s example.

That's the last thing Iceman's books should do...

[mogwen]

There's no excuse for personal attacks, regardless of how someone feels about Iceman. Having said that, we all have individual experiences that inform our view of stories in general, not just Iceman's, but this thread is about him so I'll say this - while I'm not a gay man, I have had experiences that I could share, but I want to try to make my point without disclosing them. That's not because of shame or anything like that, but because I think my argument should be able to stand without my sharing an anecdote.

How Iceman was outed is still horrible to me - it wasn't Jean gently leading him to an admission that they'd all been waiting for, it was her insisting something that some in the fandom wanted. There isn't anything inherently wrong with wanting more gay characters, but Iceman's handling is an opportunity to learn what to avoid next time because it wasn't handled very well.

The last thing I'll say is that Iceman is fictional, a character; he was certainly not created with the narrative of coming out in mind, and I'm certain there were plenty of creators who didn't see it or ignored it. Northstar is the character y'all are thinking of. Iceman's situation is a retcon, a reveal that recontextualizes that "subtext" - and there's nothing wrong with that being the case, but there doesn't have to be some defense of the reveal as being planned for decades.



That's the last thing Iceman's books should do...

What a thoughtful post!
I would have felt it more "organic " if he fell in love with a guy to his surprise, the Bendis revelation only talked about identity while I would have prefered it would talk about love.
I would have prefered, as a reader, to see him fighting against his feelings then accepting who he is. It would have been a beautiful story of character growth. With Bendis, it felt rushed.
Now I would like to see Iceman taking more responsibilities with the team and the school.

[Bl00dwerK]

Can't believe how many homophobes make excuses about canon to cover their hatred of gays.

Someone doesn't agree with changing established canon so the must hate gay people. That's the only possible reason.

[Bl00dwerK]

But what in Bobby's origin was changed?

Bobby's never been gay before one dude decided he wanted him to be, then Bendis went and made it official. Pandering at it's best.

[Bl00dwerK]

Bobby becoming gay hasn't fundamentally changed the stories that are told about him.

Bobby went from being the mutant version of Spider-Man to being a raging queen. He not only came out, his entire personality changed.

[Bl00dwerK]

Not sure if it's sad or funny that more people have/will probably read this thread then they did his actual comic.

Honestly, having read both, this thread is alot easier to digest. Grace's book is god-awful.

[Strong Girl Daken]

There's no excuse for personal attacks, regardless of how someone feels about Iceman. Having said that, we all have individual experiences that inform our view of stories in general, not just Iceman's, but this thread is about him so I'll say this - while I'm not a gay man, I have had experiences that I could share, but I want to try to make my point without disclosing them. That's not because of shame or anything like that, but because I think my argument should be able to stand without my sharing an anecdote.

How Iceman was outed is still horrible to me - it wasn't Jean gently leading him to an admission that they'd all been waiting for, it was her insisting something that some in the fandom wanted. There isn't anything inherently wrong with wanting more gay characters, but Iceman's handling is an opportunity to learn what to avoid next time because it wasn't handled very well.

The last thing I'll say is that Iceman is fictional, a character; he was certainly not created with the narrative of coming out in mind, and I'm certain there were plenty of creators who didn't see it or ignored it. Northstar is the character y'all are thinking of. Iceman's situation is a retcon, a reveal that recontextualizes that "subtext" - and there's nothing wrong with that being the case, but there doesn't have to be some defense of the reveal as being planned for decades.

That's the last thing Iceman's books should do...

"I'm not a gay man but will say that gay men sharing personal experiences isn't relevant to understanding how a gay character is depicted"

Are you kidding?

[Hizashi]

"I'm not a gay man but will say that gay men sharing personal experiences isn't relevant to understanding how a gay character is depicted"

Are you kidding?

I said that I didn't want to share because my point should be able to stand without doing so.

[Hizashi]

What a thoughtful post!
I would have felt it more "organic " if he fell in love with a guy to his surprise, the Bendis revelation only talked about identity while I would have prefered it would talk about love.
I would have prefered, as a reader, to see him fighting against his feelings then accepting who he is. It would have been a beautiful story of character growth. With Bendis, it felt rushed.
Now I would like to see Iceman taking more responsibilities with the team and the school.

Thank you, I agree. Pointing out that the way Marvel has handled Iceman isn't great doesn't automatically mean that there's animus against gay people - I believe your suggestion would have made for a good read.

[Triniking1234]

Isn't this discussion about a writer saying that Marvel was playing around with the idea of Iceman being gay for a while? It didn't come out of thin air and his relationships were never of the magnitude of Scott and Jean.

1) Yes.
2) How does the magnitude of his relationships even affect this?

[DragonsChi]

Honestly, having read both, this thread is alot easier to digest. Grace's book is god-awful.

My post wasn't meant to be a diss. Just saying.

Most newer books at Marvel are not up to par though. So has nothing to do with him being turned gay.

[Gray Lensman]

What a thoughtful post!
I would have felt it more "organic " if he fell in love with a guy to his surprise, the Bendis revelation only talked about identity while I would have prefered it would talk about love.
I would have prefered, as a reader, to see him fighting against his feelings then accepting who he is. It would have been a beautiful story of character growth. With Bendis, it felt rushed.
Now I would like to see Iceman taking more responsibilities with the team and the school.

I never thought I would read the words Bendis and rushed in the same sentence. This thread continues to break new ground.

[Crimz]

1) Yes.
2) How does the magnitude of his relationships even affect this?

It helps to read what I was quoting for context.

[CRaymond]

2) How does the magnitude of his relationships even affect this?

I think some people believe that Iceman's prior romantic relationships with women are now hollow "lies", as opposed to the infamous X-Men franchise love story intensity of Scott & Jean. It's a bit uneven comparison, but that was Crimz' intention.