Fabian Nicieza confirms Iceman was meant to be gay as far back as the 90’s

[Gray Lensman]

The thing about it though...if Bendis really cared about representation he would have just put North Star in his title. Instead he was doing what he always does...Clout Chase. He know that move would get his name out there yet again so he did it. And in typical Bendis fashion, instead of using the opportunity to make it story meaningful in some way, he just tossed out there and said "Whelp there ya go. Line for patting me on the back starts over there".

Whatever Iceman's gay now. Just don't believe the hype that Bendis made the move to be progressive.

It's entirely possible that both things are true. There could have easily been behind the scenes discussion about Iceman's sexuality (and writers going in on the subtext) which led to Bendis seizing the moment and clout chasing so it would be him that received credit and not the next writer.

[WebLurker]

What do people seriously expect by saying in 2019 they didn't like the way Bendis wrote the story? That's not an unpopular opinion but it's written. It's done. What now? Is there still anyone that actually believes Marvel will send Bobby back to the closet if they beat this dead horse hard enough?

Course there are people who believe that; Comicsgate is built on that delusion.

[Strong Girl Daken]

Iceman is a recognizable character who has been in many iconic, nostalgic, and popular animated series, video games, and films. He is forever entrenched in the franchise’s mythos, and has deep connections with other characters. Iceman will continue to be important to the X-World and he is a likely character to be adapted in future projects. He is gay.

Northstar is gay as well but has none of these other things. This is why Iceman is important and why what Bendis did is important (not that the criticisms of how it happened aren’t legit).

[Hizashi]

I personnally think Marvel was a little late on this, it would have been much more impactful to have Iceman come out during the 2000's and the Morisson's black leather era, but I think for Joe Casey Iceman was like an extension of himself so I guess it's a no!
I understand the problem of representation in comic books and the hypocrisy of only wanting new gay characters. The truth is new characters rarely rarely find their audience so it's the best way not to have gay characters.
I'm glad it puts the spotlight on Iceman who has been underused for a longtime.

That's interesting - Marvel missed their best window to tell this story.

Could you elaborate on your point about the hypocrisy of only wanting new gay characters? That it's a way to keep gay characters out of comics or...?

[Gray Lensman]

That's interesting - Marvel missed their best window to tell this story.

Could you elaborate on your point about the hypocrisy of only wanting new gay characters? That it's a way to keep gay characters out of comics or...?

I think it has to do with the usual of new characters almost never catching on anymore - When is the last time a new character caught on from the X-books? Now, when was the last time one did that wasn't a Wolverine derivative?

[Sutekh]

Could you elaborate on your point about the hypocrisy of only wanting new gay characters? That it's a way to keep gay characters out of comics or...?

While I'm not the poster you are speaking to, I've heard it said in reply when I said something similar about 'why didn't they use X instead of making a new character like that?' that it can be interpreted that 'we've got enough X already, the quota is full, we don't need any more of them.' In this interpretation, a person saying, 'Why didn't they use Northstar?' is codedly saying, 'Not *another* gay character! Can't we just have one, to 'prove' we aren't homophobes, and writers and readers who don't want to deal with 'gay stuff' can avoid books he's in?'

But it's also entirely possible that the 'Why not Northstar?' person is just a fan of Northstar, and that it's a horrible distortion to put that subtext to their words...

I could also see the interpretation that Bobby coming out is actually a sort of different representation than a new younger character who is introduced as gay, and born into a somewhat more gay-friendly audience than Bobby was, back in the day, when being in the closet was really the only choice.

There are stories that can be told about the closet and coming out and complicated/confused past relationships with both female *and* male friends, that can't be told with a new younger 'always was out' character like Billy Kaplan, or even Jean-Paul.

[gifted]

I'm not a sensitive person, but I'm pretty offended by the raging queen remark. Just because Iceman is gay does not make him a raging queen. Either you're not reading the book or you have no idea what "raging queen" implies; however, unlike others I'm not one to assume.

As someone who is gay and lives in a heavily gay-populated area, I know all the labels society gives us let alone all the labels we give ourselves -- and Iceman in no way has ever been written or depicted as a raging queen. But hey, he's gay, so he must be, right?

Is it too late to change my username to Raging Queen, or has it already been taken by the other gay on this board?

[Hizashi]

Many people agree that the way his coming out was handled was badly written, (I would have prefered for adult Bobby to realise it on his own over an entire arc without time travel or Jean being involved whatsoever) that's not the issue here. The issue is it's been years since Bobby came out and still we have a thread with people arguing about Bobby being gay.

What do people seriously expect by saying in 2019 they didn't like the way Bendis wrote the story? That's not an unpopular opinion but it's written. It's done. What now? Is there still anyone that actually believes Marvel will send Bobby back to the closet if they beat this dead horse hard enough?

People argue about less contentious things that happened a much longer time ago. I won't argue that Bobby isn't gay, that would be ridiculous - but I will argue: that Marvel should hardly be patting themselves on the back; that the idea that Iceman was always gay and that anyone who didn't see it is an ignoramus is wrong; and that a writer, or even a few, claiming that Bobby was always going to come out doesn't necessarily validate the decision or insulate it or the books that followed from criticism. None of that means that Bobby being gay is wrong or that fans who love the decision because of deep personal reasons are wrong.

Bobby shouldn't be regressed now that he is gay - and I hardly think Marvel would do something like that now.

[Hizashi]

I think it has to do with the usual of new characters almost never catching on anymore - When is the last time a new character caught on from the X-books? Now, when was the last time one did that wasn't a Wolverine derivative?

I sincerely believe that this is completely on the writers/editors - Trinary was introduced in Red by Taylor and I hardly saw anything there that makes me want to see her in new stories.

[Hizashi]

While I'm not the poster you are speaking to, I've heard it said in reply when I said something similar about 'why didn't they use X instead of making a new character like that?' that it can be interpreted that 'we've got enough X already, the quota is full, we don't need any more of them.' In this interpretation, a person saying, 'Why didn't they use Northstar?' is codedly saying, 'Not *another* gay character! Can't we just have one, to 'prove' we aren't homophobes, and writers and readers who don't want to deal with 'gay stuff' can avoid books he's in?'

But it's also entirely possible that the 'Why not Northstar?' person is just a fan of Northstar, and that it's a horrible distortion to put that subtext to their words...

I could also see the interpretation that Bobby coming out is actually a sort of different representation than a new younger character who is introduced as gay, and born into a somewhat more gay-friendly audience than Bobby was, back in the day, when being in the closet was really the only choice.

There are stories that can be told about the closet and coming out and complicated/confused past relationships with both female *and* male friends, that can't be told with a new younger 'always was out' character like Billy Kaplan, or even Jean-Paul.

I bolded this because that's how I view those comments - there are plenty of underused characters that could easily fulfill certain roles in a given story*. You bring up a good counter point about the more contentious idea that there can be "enough" gay or minority characters - they aren't a quota to be filled and shouldn't be viewed as such.

*This doesn't necessarily apply to Iceman, because there's certainly a great deal of merit in telling a story about a man who tries to live his life as a straight man, denying his true nature for years only to attempt to come to terms with it as an adult as you point out. As far as I know, it isn't a story that's been told by Marvel before, but I'd argue that they haven't necessarily done it with Iceman. What's been done with him is a retcon, a reveal that recontextualizes seeds sporadically placed by creators years ago and not a narrative that paid off after years of build-up. That's not a bad thing and there's no need to pretend it's something else, because the quality of the stories can speak for themselves. I just think that the narrative that we're talking about here would be better served with clear and consistent subtext before the payoff.

[BroHomo]

I just think that the narrative that we're talking about here would be better served with clear and consistent subtext before the payoff.

I hardly think the fans who didn't see or can't see the hints I Bobby's past with be able to recognize the subtext

[DragonsChi]

While I'm not the poster you are speaking to, I've heard it said in reply when I said something similar about 'why didn't they use X instead of making a new character like that?' that it can be interpreted that 'we've got enough X already, the quota is full, we don't need any more of them.' In this interpretation, a person saying, 'Why didn't they use Northstar?' is codedly saying, 'Not *another* gay character! Can't we just have one, to 'prove' we aren't homophobes, and writers and readers who don't want to deal with 'gay stuff' can avoid books he's in?'

But it's also entirely possible that the 'Why not Northstar?' person is just a fan of Northstar, and that it's a horrible distortion to put that subtext to their words...

I could also see the interpretation that Bobby coming out is actually a sort of different representation than a new younger character who is introduced as gay, and born into a somewhat more gay-friendly audience than Bobby was, back in the day, when being in the closet was really the only choice.

There are stories that can be told about the closet and coming out and complicated/confused past relationships with both female *and* male friends, that can't be told with a new younger 'always was out' character like Billy Kaplan, or even Jean-Paul.

This is to simplistic of a view for this particular discussion. Especially due to the nature of it being of that of "Giving with one hand and taking with the other". Bendis gave us a gay character but he did it only to appease those he knew would eat it up and to raise his profile even higher. Outside of teen bobby coming out what did he actually achieve or accomplish with Bendis? It's a superhero comic, did he actually ever seem heroic in the sense that he took down a "bad guy"? Did he do anything profound under Bendis pen that made anyone actually interested in the character outside of coming out? Nah, what Bendis did can very much be described as Tokenism.

If he had an actual plan for the character or made his coming out impactful to Bobby's overall story, there would be very little people could say. Instead he turned teen Bobby gay and pretty much made that his only plot point. If he wasn't joking around he was talking about being gay. That's not what super hero comics is about. Race, Sexuality, Religion, Politics, and so on are all additives to make characters better. They shouldn't be the focus or be the main driving point of a characters narrative.

The suggestion to use Northstar is because he is a character that has more going on then just being gay. Not only that he is one of a thousand other mutant characters who was not being used. It wasn't to say that there is enough gay characters as it is to say, if you are going to do something do it RIGHT and if you can't do that use something that is already WORKING.

[kevinism]

I'll be Flaming Queen

I'm not a sensitive person, but I'm pretty offended by the raging queen remark. Just because Iceman is gay does not make him a raging queen. Either you're not reading the book or you have no idea what "raging queen" implies; however, unlike others I'm not one to assume.

As someone who is gay and lives in a heavily gay-populated area, I know all the labels society gives us let alone all the labels we give ourselves -- and Iceman in no way has ever been written or depicted as a raging queen. But hey, he's gay, so he must be, right?

Is it too late to change my username to Raging Queen, or has it already been taken by the other gay on this board?

[Maestroneto]

I'm surprised this hasn't come up, but Nicieza has talked about how Iceman was thought to be gay since he first came out in 2015.

https://twitter.com/FabianNicieza/st...60201818300416
https://twitter.com/FabianNicieza/st...72350598795265
https://twitter.com/FabianNicieza/st...93746129428481

It's not a discussion he only just jumped in on to piggyback off of Bendis.

[MechaJeanix]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I will say that I am 36 years old and starting posting on X-men related message boards when I was in the my late teens/early 20's and there were always fans stating that they thought Iceman was gay or that they wanted Iceman to be gay. So the writer is correct that this is something some fans saw for a very long time, and it is something that some fans wanted for a long time.

In that respect, yes it was something that was "out there" and wasn't just made up by Bendis.

X-men has historically had a large gay online fan base (look at any message board, look at the online fandom for Rachel Grey, Jean Grey, and Dazzler among others .. majority gay men representing on the message boards). I recall on X-fan, later called comixfan, where a Marvel writer or editor commented that they didn't know the extent of the gay fanbase with X-men. It didn't surprise me when we started to see more gay X-men characters (though they are mostly minor characters).

I think they made Iceman gay because we can't just ignore him like we do Anole, NorthStar, etc. They become the "gay character" to the straight audience. They can't easily dismiss Iceman. They have to see him as a character and person in a way they don't' for the other gay characters. This is a character that they had previously identified with and perhaps was their favorite character. Unfortunately some fans have really struggled with this development. Heck, I recall gay fans on this site being angry/livid when Rictor was gay and having a relationship with Shatterstar. Sometimes you just can't please folks.