Fabian Nicieza confirms Iceman was meant to be gay as far back as the 90’s

[Triniking1234]

Eh. The edit didn't kick in when I posted.

[Snoop Dogg]

minorities shouldn't and shouldn't be thought of as competing against each other for representation, it's unhealthy, a gay character isn't stealing a bi character's spot and a black character isn't stealing an asian character's spot and my beer isn't taking my water's spot because there's no limit to spots and they all need more

i'm never eating mozzarella sticks again

[zinderel]

Eh. The edit didn't kick in when I posted.

There was a segment addressing it before 'the edit'. 'The edit' just expanded that section to make the point more clear and adjust spelling and grammar errors that glared at me.

[zinderel]

minorities shouldn't and shouldn't be thought of as competing against each other for representation, it's unhealthy, a gay character isn't stealing a bi character's spot and a black character isn't stealing an asian character's spot and my beer isn't taking my water's spot because there's no limit to spots and they all need more

i'm never eating mozzarella sticks again

Exactly! Representation isn't like cake, where it runs out if you spread it around. It just...makes the tapestry of the fictional universe we all love - we have that much in common, at least - more colorful and complete.

Now...to the important question...

What do you have against mozzarella sticks?!

[Mah VM]

To add...if Marvel editors put pressure on writers to use Northstar like they keep certain books around that continue to have low sales but are still relaunched, then he wouldn't be put back in limbo.

They could and I wish they would. But he is little more than a background character in Uncanny while the same old characters take the lead.

I think it has to do with the usual of new characters almost never catching on anymore - When is the last time a new character caught on from the X-books? Now, when was the last time one did that wasn't a Wolverine derivative?

Exactly. Since Marvel focuses their comics on the same old characters and those are the major characters in every story, the constant faces on team rosters, the ones playing important roles in events, the ones in movies, games, etc. a new LGBT character would probably just be joining the long list of characters relegated to wallpaper while the story focuses on the same characters created 20+ years ago.

I hardly think the fans who didn't see or can't see the hints I Bobby's past with be able to recognize the subtext

Exactly. Every character who wasn't introduced explicitly and openly LGBT but came out later on was met with the same reaction. Regardless of writing or how obvious the subext is.

Source: been a part of several fandoms that had a meltdown once a character that had long been interpreted as queer or two characters of the same sex interpreted as romantic were confirmed in canon.

Some people just can't admit something went over their head. Either they saw it coming or it was never there to begin with and everyone who saw it was delusional and just seeing things and writers retcon. Everyone is wrong and part of a conspiracy against them.

Yes, but it doesn't mean that because they missed what was for me the best window to tell the story (and back in 2001-2002 I think there wouldn't have been such a backlash, there was no Comicsgate at the time and we hadn't reached this toxic fandom era) they shouldn't tell the story now!

In the 2000s it would've been worse. You're right CG didn't exist back then, they were just openly calling characters like Northstar a ******, instead of hiding behind anti-SJW rethoric.

So I'll have to disagree, I understand why Marvel waited.

I also find it laughable that people use his inability to retain a long term relationship makes him gay…yet when you point out that other heroes have also had problems sustaining long term relationships (Daredevil, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Batman) there’s just silence.

Having failed relationships or trouble in relationships with women is something many straight men and gay men go through for obviously different reasons. Both are realistc and valid stories that deserve to be told. You mentioned several characters who represent straight men who go through that so clearly straight men with a shitty love life are well represented (as usual). Bobby represents gay men who have had relationships with women in the past that abviously didn't work out. That's ONE character. Should that story not be told at all?

I wanna thank everyone who has posted personal stories here. Sharing our stories is hard, sometimes, especially when we know that we'll face dismissal and outright hostility for it, but it gets the stories out there and helps share that there is no one 'right's way to come out. It helps show that not everyone knows they are gay at the same time, that not everyone accepts it right away, that some people do their level best to deny it and hide it and present as straight to the world, even to their closest friends and family. It helps people realize that we aren't alone, or unworthy, and that while we can mostly ALL agree that Bendis' handling of the situation was garbage (like most of his work at Marvel, IMHO...), that fact doesn't provide a magical opportunity to 'reverse the gayification of Bobby.'

Bobby is gay. His coming out was sloppily handled and kind of messy. But that happens in the real world too. Sometimes, a friend or loved one pulls us aside and confronts us - out of the blue - and let's us know that they know...and that they still love us. Tean outing Bobby did not make him gay. She also did not do it in front of anyone, but spoke to him privately, like a proper friend.

QFT

Why couldn't he be bisexual?

Bisexuals are under-represented in the Big Two comics. The most popular bisexual reps in X-Men are Mystique and Daken and people keep forgetting Psylocke fucked Cluster.

I'll be the first to ask for more and better Bi representation but not in the context of bargaining a Gay character's coming out. It doesn't have to be either/or. There's a bunch of old character who have loads of subtext and have people intepreting them as Bi/Pan for decades that Marvel could out in the future.

And seeing all the support/concern for Bi rep in this thread and every other Iceman thread in the last few years I'm sure if Marvel ever does allow a writer to do that we will see nothing but an outpour of support...

LOL

[mogwen]

In the 2000s it would've been worse. You're right CG didn't exist back then, they were just openly calling characters like Northstar a ******, instead of hiding behind anti-SJW rethoric.

So I'll have to disagree, I understand why Marvel waited.

It's interesting, I tend to remember the arrival of Joe Quesada as editor-in-chief as an era of bold moves and groundbreaking tales! It's the moment that made me read Marvel again regularly between Milligan's X-Force, Morrison's X-Men, Straczynski's Spider-Man. I think it was a very progressive era of comics with great stories and with great storytellers. But I live in France, I was not living in the US at the time so you must know better than I!

[WebLurker]

I think it has to do with the usual of new characters almost never catching on anymore - When is the last time a new character caught on from the X-books? Now, when was the last time one did that wasn't a Wolverine derivative?

Yeah, I'd argue that X-23, almost as literal a Wolverine derivative as any (even if I'd argue that she's developed into her own character), was the last new character to have any degree of staying power and carve out their own niche in the franchise.

As far as new characters not Wolverine-based, my guess would be Apocalypse from the late '80s, but I don't know that much about X-Men comics, so I could be overlooking someone. (The Cuckoos seem to be hanging on, but I don't think they've made themselves as big yet as X-23, much less Apocalypse.)

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Because he's not. I agree there's a shortage of bisexual representation but Bobby's gay.

There's Mystique and Daken but there's also Prodigy, Mercury, and Shatterstar. And I don't think anyone forgot Psylocke and Cluster. There was apparently a lot of debate over in the Psylocke appreciation thread at one point over it but I didn't check it out myself.

It's not whether they had sex or not, it's that just because they had sex doesn't automatically mean that Betsy is bi since at least partially she's shown no interest in any other woman really before or since that and doesn't seem to even remember that Cluster ever existed...so there's room for debate there, just like with Buffy...

[Crimz]

It's not whether they had sex or not, it's that just because they had sex doesn't automatically mean that Betsy is bi since at least partially she's shown no interest in any other woman really before or since that and doesn't seem to even remember that Cluster ever existed...so there's room for debate there, just like with Buffy...

But you must be able to see peoples frustration?

First it's said that you can't have an existing character be LGBT without evidence. Then it's said that subtext isn't enough.

Now you have Betsy who on panel slept with a woman. But that's still not enough?

What does it have to take? If canonical sex with the same gender isn't enough then what the hell is?

[Mah VM]

It's not whether they had sex or not, it's that just because they had sex doesn't automatically mean that Betsy is bi since at least partially she's shown no interest in any other woman really before or since that and doesn't seem to even remember that Cluster ever existed...so there's room for debate there, just like with Buffy...

She didn't just have sex with her because she was curious, Betsy was attracted to Cluster, both sexually and IMO romantically, it was spelled out. Also bisexuality is not a numbers game, I wish this gatekeeping would stop. You don't have to be attracted to a certain number of people of each gender or have sex with more than one of each gender in order to earn your LGBT card. Betsy has shown attraction to males and females in canon, it'd be nice to see her getting another female love interest but she shouldn't need one just so people will accept she's bi.

[zinderel]

On the Betsy front, I can see how some people are like, "Well, it was one time, with a female clone of a guy she had an obvious in universe romance with, so calling her 'bi' might be premature." After all, it was a poorly handled and quickly dropped relationship and there has been no further hints or explicit statements to confirm or deny her bisexuality.

Buuuuut...I can also see how offensive it is to bisexual people that some readers refuse to even entertain the notion that she might be bisexual, "Because it was just one time."

I would just like to point out that, in the medium of comics - with how toxic fandom has become - a bisexual with only one piece of evidence of their bisexuality can very easily be ignored in favor of heteronomativity. See Loki, and...well...Psylocke. We have been told both characters are bisexual, but have perhaps a single floppy where their bisexuality is presented in a way that doesn't dwell on their regular, aggressivly heteronormative lifestyle. As someone with bisexual friends who read comics, I can tell you, they are pissed that out of four prominent Marvel bisexuals (Daken, Mystique, Betsy, Loki), two are inhuman monsters who use sex as a weapon, and two are utterly indistinguishable from their straight peers, aside from a single issue each.

Marvel has a lot of progress still to go, but they're trying. Fan reaction to those attempts being what it HAS been, though...? No wonder they don't try harder...

[nx01a]

I wonder what people would think if Betsy and Kwannon got together.

[CRaymond]

Bisexuals have Julio Esteban Richter.

Betsy/Kwannon would be incredibly unhealthy and kinda gross. Fap as thou wilt tho boys.

[Hizashi]

Yes, but it doesn't mean that because they missed what was for me the best window to tell the story (and back in 2001-2002 I think there wouldn't have been such a backlash, there was no Comicsgate at the time and we hadn't reached this toxic fandom era) they shouldn't tell the story now!
I think the others have made great answers to your question, better than what I would be able to do since english is not my first language!
Yes, I think those that ask for gay characters to only be new characters know that the Marvel Universe is already overcrowded and it's very difficult for a new character to catch the eye of the audience. And this is generally the same people who, when you present them with a new gay character will dismiss him as SJW stuff. Like this, they win on both fronts.
And when I criticize Bendis work, I criticize the narrative, not the fact that Bobby is gay, I couldn't, I was there during the 90's, I saw his purple pants and black leather jacket with almost shaven head!
I remember Emma talking about Bobby's interior decorator talents mockingly, I remember it was a subtext with Lobdell too, but it was never developed, which is a shame because the X-Men are a metaphore of social issues and the treatment of minorites, they're not only that but that's a core part of what they are. It made for a really good story that had not been written until recently.

MechaJeanix talked about the large gay fanbase and it's normal because there's identification: a minority that has to fight for its rights. Not having a proeminent gay character on the team would be like denying place in the fight. I like, MechaJeanix, when you talk about the identification the fans make with the characters. It helped me understand why the reactions were sometimes so violent, something more born out of guts than reason. I'm sad some fans feel betrayed because they identified with Bobby Drake and they learnt abruptly he is gay and they hadn't understood a subtext! But they should have done their research, there were many theories on the net, so they could have been prepared for the surprise! Maybe they hadn't read the 90's stuff or were too young to understand the subtext. I remember my straight friends who read X-Men at the time understood the subtext, so that's not a "gay" thing.

Absolutely, although they should've known to handle it better after missing a better window. I wonder about Iceman's standing as one of the original X-Men affecting the decisions being made - and how the existence of Northstar, Midnighter, and others did or didn't affect it also.

[nx01a]

Betsy/Kwannon would be incredibly unhealthy and kinda gross.

It's such a bad idea that I think it'll happen by 2020.