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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Bingo, this is the crux of the whole problem with Steve. He is viewed by many rightly or wrongly as a non-entity due to his paper-thin portrayal. Other than being Wondy's default love interest and a military guy what has he got going for him? His interests, hopes, dreams, fears, and background are hardly ever mentioned. He is essentially a male damsel. He exists to motivate the hero and help move the hero's story along. Steve is by far the least developed of the golden age DC love interests. Take Lois and Selina, for example, as counterpoints to Steve unlike him both have clear agency outside of their romantic partner.
    Agreed, which is also why I've been pushing for moving Steve out of the military for some time now.

    Perhaps the most important issue with Steve is the lack of stories surrounding him. The movie gave him a compelling one, and meeting Diana should easily give room for another one that doesn't kill him: Steve deciding the military isn't for him anymore.

    Now, I think there is room for a male damsel in distress, but right now Steve is not that good a one. His relation to Diana pushes him in that direction, but the way that he is a dude and badass soldier to boot means that what is subversive for a princess (being self-rescuing) isn't for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    In marston’s he is well flesh out also. When he isn’t helping the military. He helps his sister and his niece with sports. Goes to movies, Cooks and other things. Why does he join the military. Favorite music.
    There are really two ways of fleshing out characters. One is to add details to them, like the above. The other is to give them texture and personality. We were told exceedingly little about movie Steve, but he had plenty of personality. With Rucka's Steve, all we got was some vague undefined longing for something, which was filled by Diana—and then nothing.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One what is the reason for him to leave the military. One of the issues with me is . We never see any of his family. We don’t know anything about his relationships

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Bingo, this is the crux of the whole problem with Steve. He is viewed by many rightly or wrongly as a non-entity due to his paper-thin portrayal. Other than being Wondy's default love interest and a military guy what has he got going for him? His interests, hopes, dreams, fears, and background are hardly ever mentioned. He is essentially a male damsel. He exists to motivate the hero and help move the hero's story along. Steve is by far the least developed of the golden age DC love interests. Take Lois and Selina, for example, as counterpoints to Steve unlike him both have clear agency outside of their romantic partner.
    The crux of the problem is that unlike Lois and Selina, who had the advantage of being fleshed out Post-Crisis (because let’s be real here Pre-Crisis stories weren’t all that nuanced in terms of writing or characterization), George Perez decided WW being in a relationship with a man made her unfeminist and wanted to focus her stories more on adventure and fantasy (as if the two were mutually exclusive). The 25 years where he wasn’t her love interest because he was old really hurt their legitimacy as a couple, but you also have to admit that even now that he has been restored as her boyfriend, most writers still refuse to take him seriously. It’s frustrating.

    This is the part where I sound like one of Those People, but I truly blame the double standards regarding female characters for this. Superman is able to have adventure AND romance, Batman cycled through god knows how many women (some of them portrayed as more of a sexy lamp than others), and their strength and integrity are never compromised. WW gets what is basically a male version of Lois Lane and suddenly everyone’s hackles are raised and they demand her be shipped off to either Supes or Bats so she could play second fiddle to them/make their main love interests jealous by being „the other woman” in the triangle.

    What’s worse any and all attempts to give her a love interest Post-Crisis did not stick, as if writers were afraid of portraying her as anything but a sexless figure. I’m a Diana/Steve fan, but I would’ve been okay with her dating any supporting character from her own cast. Alas, as it has now become a time-honored WW tradition to rotate her cast every time a new writer came on board, as it stands Steve Trevor is still her most prominent and enduring love interest, so I’m still gonna go with him.
    Last edited by TheAnn; 09-11-2019 at 05:21 PM.

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    And yet outside the comics she generally can have both. And generally is with Steve. If you were written Steve and Diana how would you do it ? One thing I notice is how well Dc can have people wrote him well. Steve in the animated movie. Steve in the tv show and elsewhere stories
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 09-11-2019 at 05:45 PM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    And yet outside the comics she generally can have both. And generally is with Steve. If you were written Steve and Diana how would you do it ? One thing I notice is how well Dc can have people wrote him well. Steve in the animated movie. Steve in the tv show and elsewhere stories
    I've already written at length about my ideal characterization of Steve Trevor here: https://wondertrevor.tumblr.com/post...und-so-much-in

    Give it a read if you're interested. It is pretty long, I will admit. Apparently I have lots of feelings about a side character that most people either hate and/or don't care about lol.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnn View Post
    I've already written at length about my ideal characterization of Steve Trevor here: https://wondertrevor.tumblr.com/post...und-so-much-in

    Give it a read if you're interested. It is pretty long, I will admit. Apparently I have lots of feelings about a side character that most people either hate and/or don't care about lol.
    Will do. One thing I wouldn't mind if he did get training from Diana.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Will do. One thing I wouldn't mind if he did get training from Diana.
    I guess that would be interesting to see, but I don't mind Steve's abilities as they are. It's not how good in a fight he is that makes him a good character, it's his morality compass.

    I'm open to see some friendly sparring between them as a way to show them bonding as a couple, but I don't see how that would work given the sheer difference in physical strength between them. And I'm not a fan of Diana training Steve, I would rather she save that for one of her female proteges.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One thing that I often wondered if this. Steve is the first Guy Diana met. Both Bruce and Clark have been shown to date others before marrying or dating the main ladies of their comics. But what about Diana? I don't want it to be oh she feel in love with him but it's also the first man she is seen.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    One thing that I often wondered if this. Steve is the first Guy Diana met. Both Bruce and Clark have been shown to date others before marrying or dating the main ladies of their comics. But what about Diana? I don't want it to be oh she feel in love with him but it's also the first man she is seen.
    According to Rucka she had a girlfriend on Themiscyra.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/wh...firms-comic-b/

    Later in the run Diana confirms it and names her gf.
    Last edited by brettc1; 09-17-2019 at 06:56 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Okay. But the issue here is the first man she meets is the man she falls in love with the first man she sees?

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Okay. But the issue here is the first man she meets is the man she falls in love with the first man she sees?
    I don't really see the problem here though. I mean, if she were like Tarzan and Steve is the first guy she's ever seen and remains the only man she knows for the rest of her life then yeah, that might be problematic. But she's not going to stay clueless about Man's World and men forever? Eventually in every version of her origin story, she's going to leave Themyscira and come to know lots of men. She's going to have a point of reference as to what constitutes a good man, instead of thinking Steve is representative of all men. And if she found a better man in Man's World then there's nothing stopping her from leaving Steve and date the countless other men she meets if Steve turns out to be an inadequate partner? Those making this argument are acting like once Diana starts dating Steve she's magically bound to him forever and can't escape. No, she can leave him if she doesn't like him anymore. And yet for years (mostly Pre-Crisis), Diana makes it clear she holds a certain degree of distaste for men's sexist ways in Man's World and that Steve is, more or less, the exception (that, or he's the least terrible man she's ever met).

    When you put it in that perspective, it really doesn't matter if Steve is the first man she's ever met or not. Clearly she must find him a suitable partner for her if they've been together this long.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Okay. But the issue here is the first man she meets is the man she falls in love with the first man she sees?
    I think the issue here is more about timing than of the issue of Steve and Diana getting together.

    Marston had Diana fall in love with Steve while he was still unconscious. It was cliched as hell and arguably made for a not very interesting dynamic between Steve and Diana. Rucka in Rebirth took it slower, but it still carried a lot of sense that Diana didn't see other men before that. It was not as ostensibly cliched as Marston, but it still carried absolutely the same subtext.

    I think the movie did the right thing here. Steve is still recognisably Steve, and is clearly heads over heel in love with Diana from the start. But Diana's priorities are different—she's here to kill Ares and prove herself an Amazon as worthy as her aunts. There is some attraction, but it's more curiosity than anything else. It's not until they arrive in Veld, as he had followed her through all the fighting, that I think Diana really sees Steve in the movie.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    I need more drama and epic romance between them!

    I need Steve to roller skate into a brick wall with a graffitied painting of Wonder Woman on it and get transported to neon Olympus where he fights for Diana's love against the hypocritical conventions of the gods! (Also, see: Xanadu.)

    I don't mind some smart conflict in their relationship, but where's the rush they get when being together and fighting crime and mitigating catastrophes together. Can we please see them in love and happy for a bit, so when a smart challenge to that love happens it means something?

    Out of all of DC's couples, Diana and Steve should be the most joyous when together. I wanna see that.
    Last edited by WonderScott; 09-24-2019 at 09:00 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think the issue here is more about timing than of the issue of Steve and Diana getting together.

    Marston had Diana fall in love with Steve while he was still unconscious. It was cliched as hell and arguably made for a not very interesting dynamic between Steve and Diana. Rucka in Rebirth took it slower, but it still carried a lot of sense that Diana didn't see other men before that. It was not as ostensibly cliched as Marston, but it still carried absolutely the same subtext.

    I think the movie did the right thing here. Steve is still recognisably Steve, and is clearly heads over heel in love with Diana from the start. But Diana's priorities are different—she's here to kill Ares and prove herself an Amazon as worthy as her aunts. There is some attraction, but it's more curiosity than anything else. It's not until they arrive in Veld, as he had followed her through all the fighting, that I think Diana really sees Steve in the movie.
    Unconscious Steve = Snow White or Sleeping Beauty

    Marston was definitely one to play with fairytale tropes and turn them slightly on their ear, before they were regularly deconstructed later.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    Unconscious Steve = Snow White or Sleeping Beauty

    Marston was definitely one to play with fairytale tropes and turn them slightly on their ear, before they were regularly deconstructed later.
    The nurse falling in love with the fallen hero is a trope as old as they come.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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