Superman and Wonder Woman Appreciation 2019

[LoveStar]

Exactly. Oh boy! It must be hard work working to intentional sabotage ones own property such as what DC has been doing with SM and WW for some time. Eroding away at what made these characters what they were. Taking away from them their core and turning them into empty shallow versions of themselves.

They are suppose to be them at their core and “back to basics” now however obviously that’s quite selective. The thing is, with the cut, copy paste method used for these versions, it doesn’t work period. The dynamics are screwed, interactions are stiff and it just seem like whatever is there, just is.

[hellacre]

You make so many good points that I feel that I might as well have just bolded and underlined everything, because each point resonated deeply. Where do I start? We are both in agreement with the ID. Like you, I don't believe it needs to be utilized all the time, but I do see it also being used as a means for privacy. As someone who cherishes her privacy and I'm not even a celebrity, along with the ID being used as a means of moving along and connecting with humanity, I also see it as being used as a means of blending in for privacy sake. Yes, there is nothing wrong with the world knowing that they are together if they so choose, because they have no need to be ashamed, but in terms of intimacy and being able to keep certain things for themselves, being able to cherish and enjoy their alone time together, or just for sanity and peace sake, I do see the ID as being important. They do not need to be public spectacles, having every move they make in and out of uniform catalogued and remarked upon. I'm sure that can get tiring really fast.

"He should be writing from other parts of the world and country. Parts of the world and US that the media often forgets after a big story breaks, like life after that hurricane, earthquake, during drought"

"Clark can take any subject and do this and he can inform and educate people that there is more to unite us than divide us"

I couldn't agree more with this. That is honestly how I would think Clark Kent would be by now. His focus and interest should be in highlighting the human interest pieces globally. I see him as being an international correspondent speaking from far out regions and territories normally forget or usually only spotlighted during turmoil or something equally negative. He should to be about "giving voice to the voiceless," bringing to light the invisible and marginalized populations, showcasing the highs and lows of humanity. Their triumphs as well as their struggles. The everyday as well as inspirational things that makes humanity what it is. However, as you said with get questionable "investigative" journalism or stories in which he hands over to another character so it can be lauded about her "Pulitzer" winning status (insert eye roll).

There is an opportunity to do so much with the SM and WW characters if DC/WB were interested in telling meaningful stories rather than surface level/superficial ones. Comics didn't always use to be about dumbing things down. Ones upon a time they also challenged readers to think differently, confront their biases, and think deeper.

"while he might be more an expert at the world, he lives in it longer than she has, she can offer that innocence and freshness and amazon passion that even one as himself ( an idealist) can connect with"

In addition to that, I feel that what has been moved away from is that Diana is also supposed to be a wise character (blessed by Athena). Not only is she able to offer a more untainted view of things due to not having lived in 'Man's World' for long she is also able to give one from a place of wisdom. She is a character who would analyze a situation from multiple positions in order to arrive at the best possible solution/conclusion given the circumstance. This is why I take issue with her being portrayed at times a character who dives in head first into battle without thought. As someone who has been trained as a warrior, she would be a person who would be deliberate in whatever move she made, in her thinking, in her decisions. Unfortunately, we hardly get to see that.

Clark and Diana while close to perfection in many ways, aren't perfect. I hate when people difficult to the lazy excuse of them being too perfect as characters and as such are boring. There is a whole plethora of ideas to be explored with them whether as individuals or as a couple. As you rightly stated, they can be very compelling on their own right when written correctly, and we have seen this done in the past. Being the symbols they are supposed to be, they are characters that time and effort should be taken to fully flesh out their stories on a continuous basis.

Agreed!

I imagine Diana as kind and compassionate etc yes but full of life and energy and with a streak of rebelliousness and adventure . She doesn't want to sit back and be a lotus eater. She is an avid reader of books and wants to know more of the world. Longs to see the outside. I like the idea of Diana coming out at a young age. A Diana that just lulls back for thousands of years and only wants to go out because a man falls on the island is kinda not my favorite. This is why I prefer Perez and Azz younger Diana starting out. I think there is a danger in making Diana feel like a den mother too young and too soon. That can only come with true life experience. And Themyscira is not the universe. Just one part of it. She still has a lot to learn. I have no problem Diana being adept at battle, heck even launching herself into one when she is younger because being trained for battle is not being in a battle. Themyscira never had wars that she had to fight. No battle situation is the same. I think what they need to be careful about is not make her seem blood thirsty, or cold hearted. Some are guilty of this while others do a WW who is more balanced. Sometimes Diana can be overdone as a bit of a doe in the headlights or even a little too sappy. All writers at times can overdo it a bit. By the same vein this is a lesson for Clark too. Both characters have immense power and have to learn restraint and also when to let loose. And I expect there are going to be situations when they will lose their cool and have to try very hard to keep control. Only life experience teaches that. Is funny how much overlap and shared themes smww have got, yet DC tries hard to deny it and even tries to give that dynamic to other characters they have to jump through hoops to justify how that works.

[Deiasilva10]

Agreed!

I imagine Diana as kind and compassionate etc yes but full of life and energy and with a streak of rebelliousness and adventure . She doesn't want to sit back and be a lotus eater. She is an avid reader of books and wants to know more of the world. Longs to see the outside. I like the idea of Diana coming out at a young age. A Diana that just lulls back for thousands of years and only wants to go out because a man falls on the island is kinda not my favorite. This is why I prefer Perez and Azz younger Diana starting out. I think there is a danger in making Diana feel like a den mother too young and too soon. That can only come with true life experience. And Themyscira is not the universe. Just one part of it. She still has a lot to learn. I have no problem Diana being adept at battle, heck even launching herself into one when she is younger because being trained for battle is not being in a battle. Themyscira never had wars that she had to fight. No battle situation is the same. I think what they need to be careful about is not make her seem blood thirsty, or cold hearted. Some are guilty of this while others do a WW who is more balanced. Sometimes Diana can be overdone as a bit of a doe in the headlights or even a little too sappy. All writers at times can overdo it a bit. By the same vein this is a lesson for Clark too. Both characters have immense power and have to learn restraint and also when to let loose. And I expect there are going to be situations when they will lose their cool and have to try very hard to keep control. Only life experience teaches that. Is funny how much overlap and shared themes smww have got, yet DC tries hard to deny it and even tries to give that dynamic to other characters they have to jump through hoops to justify how that works.

Diana can bring passion to SM’s life! Passion for food, for fun, for life, for people, for love... she has a fire within her that is the very flame of life, the very joy of living! It is Diana who brings this to him ... she intrigues him, nudges him, challenges him, makes him go further because he knows she would too! There is also a healthy competition between both that makes them think "I have to be better because Diana / Kal is" ...

[LoveStar]

Diana can bring passion to SM’s life! Passion for food, for fun, for life, for people, for love... she has a fire within her that is the very flame of life, the very joy of living! It is Diana who brings this to him ... she intrigues him, nudges him, challenges him, makes him go further because he knows she would too! There is also a healthy competition between both that makes them think "I have to be better because Diana / Kal is" ...

I really miss this and wish we could’ve gotten more of this. New52 Diana surely did have so much fire and fierceness, free spirited, didn’t take anybody’s BS yet still so loving and compassionate. She opened Clark to be just as proud and even more so confident and sure.

[hellacre]

They are suppose to be them at their core and “back to basics” now however obviously that’s quite selective. The thing is, with the cut, copy paste method used for these versions, it doesn’t work period. The dynamics are screwed, interactions are stiff and it just seem like whatever is there, just is.

People have different ideas what works for them obviously. But it is obvious not every one gives a hoot for back to basics. It is validated by SMWW being a strong presence in pop culture , selling as well as anything SM or WW books put out, and an increasing fanbase. It suggests that what DC tries to put forward to the fans that they "have to love" to loosely quote one creator, does not always work. No one has to love anything. That is not how literature or entertainment works. DC is a business and it writes material hopefully for some profit, I would assume. Parceling stories with no thought, recycling the same stuff...in a climate where there is so much competition with many different hit tv shows, books, games, movies, you can't expect anything more than what you put in. We shall see what DC will do in the future. I suspect we are not far from another retcon or anything to renumber. One thing we must always be positive about ...the new 52 went for 5 years with no reumbering...they even derailed it with Convergence and the last year they were not even trying and yet the sales were no different to where they are now. If a gauge for success is standard/average attrition for titles then SMWW was very much a success and did way better than many books with back to basics.

[Deiasilva10]

I really miss this and wish we could’ve gotten more of this. New52 Diana surely did have so much fire and fierceness, free spirited, didn’t take anybody’s BS yet still so loving and compassionate. She opened Clark to be just as proud and even more so confident and sure.

The best versions of Diana are those she is portrayed as a passionate woman! Perez made her a young, almost teenager, passionate about life and full of love, Azzarello portrayed her as a young woman, active and fiery, cheerful ... and in KC she was portrayed as a mature woman with a volcano inside her! As she herself says: "It is not anger, it is passion!" Of course I do not need to say that all these versions have Kal at her side to start and feed this fire!

[LoveStar]

People have different ideas what works for them obviously. But it is obvious not every one gives a hoot for back to basics. It is validated by SMWW being a strong presence in pop culture , selling as well as anything SM or WW books put out, and an increasing fanbase. It suggests that what DC tries to put forward to the fans that they "have to love" to loosely quote one creator, does not always work. No one has to love anything. That is not how literature or entertainment works. DC is a business and it writes material hopefully for some profit, I would assume. Parceling stories with no thought, recycling the same stuff...in a climate where there is so much competition with many different hit tv shows, books, games, movies, you can't expect anything more than what you put in. We shall see what DC will do in the future. I suspect we are not far from another retcon or anything to renumber. One thing we must always be positive about ...the new 52 went for 5 years with no reumbering...they even derailed it with Convergence and the last year they were not even trying and yet the sales were no different to where they are now. If a gauge for success is standard/average attrition for titles then SMWW was very much a success and did way better than many books with back to basics.

All very much true! New52 wasn’t perfect, it could’ve been so much better, had so much more potential, but gave the chances for risk to be taken, much bigger risks than now. Regressing and going backwards, playing safe was and should not be the answer. What works, put in the effort to make it even better, not down play it.

SMWW has proven to be a success in regards to comics and beyond...take that and let it flourish as it should

[LoveStar]

The best versions of Diana are those she is portrayed as a passionate woman! Perez made her a young, almost teenager, passionate about life and full of love, Azzarello portrayed her as a young woman, active and fiery, cheerful ... and in KC she was portrayed as a mature woman with a volcano inside her! As she herself says: "It is not anger, it is passion!" Of course I do not need to say that all these versions have Kal at her side to start and feed this fire!

Heh 😉 isn’t that something?
That’s because with Kal, she is just herself without any kind of expectations or limitations. Kal understands, respects, and knows her. He is the person she trusts the most and been the person she has confided in the most, her defining moments of vulnerability have been with him. She didn’t have to lose her mind, lose her home on Themyscira, become this lonely lost little girl like. Diana is written as a real woman with him.

[Deiasilva10]

All very much true! New52 wasn’t perfect, it could’ve been so much better, had so much more potential, but gave the chances for risk to be taken, much bigger risks than now. Regressing and going backwards, playing safe was and should not be the answer. What works, put in the effort to make it even better, not down play it.

SMWW has proven to be a success in regards to comics and beyond...take that and let it flourish as it should

New 52 wasn’t perfect but tell me when comics where perfect? I remember when all DC universe started from 0 after COIE and it was not perfect, it also had flaws, also had fans complaining, I remember that we stayed almost a year without a WW book, it seemed that Perez wanted everyone to forget of the ancient WW to be able to love his from the new origin. It was a wise decision ... New 52 was something new, an almost radical change, was still adapting .... the way it ended was cowardly with the characters and disrespectful to the fans!

Heh �� isn’t that something?
That’s because with Kal, she is just herself without any kind of expectations or limitations. Kal understands, respects, and knows her. He is the person she trusts the most and been the person she has confided in the most, her defining moments of vulnerability have been with him. She didn’t have to lose her mind, lose her home on Themyscira, become this lonely lost little girl like. Diana is written as a real woman with him.

Because Kal brings out the best in her

[LadyP]

Agreed!

I imagine Diana as kind and compassionate etc yes but full of life and energy and with a streak of rebelliousness and adventure . She doesn't want to sit back and be a lotus eater. She is an avid reader of books and wants to know more of the world. Longs to see the outside. I like the idea of Diana coming out at a young age. A Diana that just lulls back for thousands of years and only wants to go out because a man falls on the island is kinda not my favorite. This is why I prefer Perez and Azz younger Diana starting out. I think there is a danger in making Diana feel like a den mother too young and too soon. That can only come with true life experience. And Themyscira is not the universe. Just one part of it. She still has a lot to learn. I have no problem Diana being adept at battle, heck even launching herself into one when she is younger because being trained for battle is not being in a battle. Themyscira never had wars that she had to fight. No battle situation is the same. I think what they need to be careful about is not make her seem blood thirsty, or cold hearted. Some are guilty of this while others do a WW who is more balanced. Sometimes Diana can be overdone as a bit of a doe in the headlights or even a little too sappy. All writers at times can overdo it a bit. By the same vein this is a lesson for Clark too. Both characters have immense power and have to learn restraint and also when to let loose. And I expect there are going to be situations when they will lose their cool and have to try very hard to keep control. Only life experience teaches that. Is funny how much overlap and shared themes smww have got, yet DC tries hard to deny it and even tries to give that dynamic to other characters they have to jump through hoops to justify how that works.

I guess the question is what is meant by "a streak of rebelliousness and adventure"? You hit the nail on the head when you mention balance. It seems not many writers are able to properly capture this with Diana. The warrior and the compassionate being. Fierce yet loving. Powerhouse yet gentle. Perez is the only one I can think of that properly balanced these aspects of her. I haven't really read much of Azzarello's run, however, the panels I saw put me off I will admit. I hate seeing a constantly sword wielding/carrying Diana as it brings to mind, for me, too much the aggressive 'fist first' Diana of JL/U, especially when I see panels of her pulling out her sword and pointing it at civilians and league members alike. For me the best representation remains Perez. He just captured her in a way that endeared her to me. There was no doubt to her strength and capability yet her caring heart and compassion were never in doubt.

I'm not sure where the "lotus eater" ideology comes from or why anyone should ever make that correlation with Diana. Diana is a character that should be presented as taking initiative. She intentionally chooses to leave her paradise not because of a man, but her desire to explore the world at large because as you stated "Themyscira is not the universe. Just one part of it," as well as make an impact in it. She is an avid reader and well versed in various histories and literature. As such, she would be curious to want to see it for herself. For me, the crash landing of Steve Trevor onto Themyscira serves as an opportunity for her to finally get out into the world and explore it, not her falling for the first man she sees and following him back into 'Man's World.' Her arrival onto the world and becoming exposed to the reality of life on the outside will eventually trigger her mission, which to me should always be about equity especially for marginalized populations through empowering people to be able to fend for themselves as well as providing aid where needed in addition to her work in the league. I don't see an issue with her being an Ambassador if it means being able to speak on issues of equality on an international platform. It is all about how it is done.

Her compassion and care for all things is not a bad thing, to me, it is one of her compelling qualities. That doesn't mean she doesn't address wrongs when she sees them. Must importantly, she faces challenges and circumstances that causes her to have to rethink her concepts of truth, such as what was done in JLA: Golden Perfect and learning that sometimes there really isn't one answer/solution.

The term "den mother" has come to have a negative connotation. One of its definition is that of "a person seen in the role of leader or protector of a group," which is not a bad thing at all as it relates to Diana. She should be a leader, and she has shown herself to be a fierce protector of those she cares about no matter her age.

I hear you in regards to "A Diana that just lulls back for thousands of years and only wants to go out because a man falls on the island" not being a favorite. I dislike that plot point a lot. Which is why I prefer a young Diana coming out into the world. Not only is it more realistic it just reads better than one that was lounging on an island for thousands of years. Whose ever idea it was, it was a miscalculated one as far as I'm concerned. Similar to the DCEU version that has had Diana out in the world for over 100 years yet she has made very little impact while she has been hiding. Ridiculous. We just need writers who know how to write her and write her well.

"Is funny how much overlap and shared themes smww have got, yet DC tries hard to deny it and even tries to give that dynamic to other characters they have to jump through hoops to justify how that works"
In regards to this statement, isn't it ironic? It is funny when I think about their concerted efforts to try to twist or change the dynamics but still it never fails to see the ways in which SMWW intertwine in various ways.

[LadyP]

Heh 😉 isn’t that something?
That’s because with Kal, she is just herself without any kind of expectations or limitations. Kal understands, respects, and knows her. He is the person she trusts the most and been the person she has confided in the most, her defining moments of vulnerability have been with him. She didn’t have to lose her mind, lose her home on Themyscira, become this lonely lost little girl like. Diana is written as a real woman with him.

Well said. I think there is definitely something to be said with the both of them together. It brings out their authentic side because they can be truly and freely themselves. There is also a "primal" aspect to them too, if you will, because as stated they can be truly and freely them with each other without fear of any kind. How freeing and exhilarating is that?

[LoveStar]

New 52 wasn’t perfect but tell me when comics where perfect? I remember when all DC universe started from 0 after COIE and it was not perfect, it also had flaws, also had fans complaining, I remember that we stayed almost a year without a WW book, it seemed that Perez wanted everyone to forget of the ancient WW to be able to love his from the new origin. It was a wise decision ... New 52 was something new, an almost radical change, was still adapting .... the way it ended was cowardly with the characters and disrespectful to the fans!

Perez is seems to pretty much be the definitive run of Wonder Woman. While there are certain stand out arcs, Perez is the golden standard. And with the critical acclaimed love, no matter how controversial it was deemed, Azzarello run had been the second standard.

Because Kal brings out the best in her

As he should and vice/versa. That’s the major purpose of their dynamic. Bring out the best in each other as man and woman, as best friends, and lovers being counterparts/answers to each other

Well said. I think there is definitely something to be said with the both of them together. It brings out their authentic side because they can be truly and freely themselves. There is also a "primal" aspect to them too, if you will, because as stated they can be truly and freely them with each other without fear of any kind. How freeing and exhilarating is that?

Right! Together they live in absolute truth as they should. Neither hesitates to be honest with each other because they give that sense of trust, understanding and acceptance of all of who they are from the beginning. That’s what a relationship be it romantic or platonic is built on.

[hellacre]

The term "den mother" has come to have a negative connotation. One of its definition is that of "a person seen in the role of leader or protector of a group," which is not a bad thing at all as it relates to Diana. She should be a leader, and she has shown herself to be a fierce protector of those she cares about no matter her age.

I hear you in regards to "A Diana that just lulls back for thousands of years and only wants to go out because a man falls on the island" not being a favorite. I dislike that plot point a lot. Which is why I prefer a young Diana coming out into the world. Not only is it more realistic it just reads better than one that was lounging on an island for thousands of years. Whose ever idea it was, it was a miscalculated one as far as I'm concerned. Similar to the DCEU version that has had Diana out in the world for over 100 years yet she has made very little impact while she has been hiding. Ridiculous. We just need writers who know how to write her and write her well.

"Is funny how much overlap and shared themes smww have got, yet DC tries hard to deny it and even tries to give that dynamic to other characters they have to jump through hoops to justify how that works"
In regards to this statement, isn't it ironic? It is funny when I think about their concerted efforts to try to twist or change the dynamics but still it never fails to see the ways in which SMWW intertwine in various ways.

The "den mother" is earned over time. I want a young Diana...allowed to be young, if you know what I mean? I'm fine with a Diana who is more experienced being maternal and leading etc. I would say to you if you can...even online, try Azzarello's run. I think you might be surprised. Yes the Amazons were darker but there are some very good moments for Diana in his run that shows her compassion, kindness, sacrifice, sisterhood, etc etc.

Perez's Diana grew and matured and became the Diana we knew for near 3 decades but DC messed her up big time too. They didn't even allow her to have her own "happy ending" but gave everyone else one. They de-aged her so she was a stranger to Kal from Odyssey onwards . The smww bond we all valued was gone poof overnight. It's really unfair we could not even have that. The current WW is done so she can't have that smww dynamic of preflashpoint as well. The retcon, which tries to suggest this is the smww of Perez to just before JMS...is so convoluted. She is not the WW of any era we knew. The current SMWW is nothing like that too. They have a formal kind of a relationship. They are like two colleagues who happens to work for the same company, who might meet up at the lunch room and be civil to each other or meetings but after they clock out...they have no connection with each other.

[hellacre]

Well said. I think there is definitely something to be said with the both of them together. It brings out their authentic side because they can be truly and freely themselves. There is also a "primal" aspect to them too, if you will, because as stated they can be truly and freely them with each other without fear of any kind. How freeing and exhilarating is that?

You'd assume that would be the case. But for some bizarre reason, what actually is used to support many other relationships in superhero fiction is somehow twisted as wrong for smww. I will never understand this.

[LadyP]

The "den mother" is earned over time. I want a young Diana...allowed to be young, if you know what I mean? I'm fine with a Diana who is more experienced being maternal and leading etc. I would say to you if you can...even online, try Azzarello's run. I think you might be surprised. Yes the Amazons were darker but there are some very good moments for Diana in his run that shows her compassion, kindness, sacrifice, sisterhood, etc etc.

I see your point. I may try it out even though I'm not a fan of the change in origin. You have me willing to at least read a little bit more than a few panels.

Perez's Diana grew and matured and became the Diana we knew for near 3 decades but DC messed her up big time too. They didn't even allow her to have her own "happy ending" but gave everyone else one. They de-aged her so she was a stranger to Kal from Odyssey onwards . The smww bond we all valued was gone poof overnight. It's really unfair we could not even have that. The current WW is done so she can't have that smww dynamic of preflashpoint as well. The retcon, which tries to suggest this is the smww of Perez to just before JMS...is so convoluted. She is not the WW of any era we knew. The current SMWW is nothing like that too. They have a formal kind of a relationship. They are like two colleagues who happens to work for the same company, who might meet up at the lunch room and be civil to each other or meetings but after they clock out...they have no connection with each other.

This will remain a bane between me and DC, I couldn't even bring myself to go through the entire volume 2 of WW because I started getting heart palpitations when I learned of what was done to her 😩.
It is why I have an issue with writers being able to mess with her mythos at whim. The way post crisis era WW ended was a big disservice to the character. For the writers to even suggest that the Rebirth version is her in any shape or form is insulting and laughable.

You'd assume that would be the case. But for some bizarre reason, what actually is used to support many other relationships in superhero fiction is somehow twisted as wrong for smww. I will never understand this.

It's called bias and propaganda at work. Because it is such a natural thing for them that it is questionable when it isn't so. We've seen it in bits and pieces through AUs and early on in the post crisis era when SM and WW were having "intense" dreams and thoughts about one another. 😏
DC and its hypocrisy never fails. 😕