Superman and Wonder Woman Appreciation 2019

[Deiasilva10]

Who used this false claim? Not DiDio/Lee or other DC editors. There was no mention of SM/WW when they launched Rebirth. That was always a detractors' claim.



DC's aswer: Never!!!! ��



Yeah, both SM and WW started changing/evolving years later that "first meeting" and were also depicted differently before COIE to consider the 80s versions to be-all and end-all of what they are.



I can't see DC investing in the Multiverse with ongoing series, just special limited projects here and there as usual. Continuing the KC saga somehow is a must, and I'm sure it'll happen sooner or later. After Miller pitching a book about SM/WW's son, Alex Ross can pitch a book about SM/WW's 5 children in the KCverse, lol. ��

Then they will give another shot in the foot since Marvel spoke openly in Multiverse in Endgame and the Spiderman Far From Home trailer.... if DC want to stay at least close to Marvel it better start changing its concepts now! I'm not just talking about SMWW, I'm talking about being a fan of the company's heroes, I'm talking about being a fan of Justice Society, of the Justice Leagues of the parallel Earths, I'm talking about being a fan of this fantastic multiverse.

[Last Son of Krypton]

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[LoveStar]

DC has made several mistakes since the "brilliant idea" of Convergence, which we know well, including betraying those naive who believed in Rebirth's proposal (hihihihihihi, sorry I laugh every time I think people believed in DC)... such errors can be corrected very easily, just invest in the multiverse! Give us new 52 Earth, keep Rebirth Earth its "countless" fans and, if possible, give us Earth of Kingdom Come and Earth pre-flashpoint ... everyone will be happy since good sales is not a factor determining what they publish ...

LOL...I thought with a business, good sales are a factor? I don’t get that logic at all

Who used this false claim? Not DiDio/Lee or other DC editors. There was no mention of SM/WW when they launched Rebirth. That was always a detractors' claim.

Well from the initial teams stance and storylines you had the “real Superman is back”, “this is the Superman you should love”...Wonder Woman’s whole first arc was throwing her entire new52 history under the bus calling it “lies”. It wasn’t mentioned directly by them, but indirectly to have this ok’ed wasn’t it either.
So detractors were able to use that even though even in DC’s encyclopedias or the actually story before trying to rewrite it all to fit this false narrative, says otherwise.

This is why it should’ve been left alone. New52 should’ve been set on another line then instead of what they did.

DC's answer: Never!!!! 🤣

Well Superman is never going to gain the relevance nor popularity he lost and some with this mindset. 🤔

Yeah, both SM and WW started changing/evolving years later that "first meeting" and were also depicted differently before COIE to consider the 80s versions to be-all and end-all of what they are.

I think in ways, it helped and hurt them in long term. Especially Superman. Wonder Woman, I think stayed neutral until just straight up being directionless and her supporting cast just wasn’t stable nor was interesting.

I can't see DC investing in the Multiverse with ongoing series, just special limited projects here and there as usual. Continuing the KC saga somehow is a must, and I'm sure it'll happen sooner or later. After Miller pitching a book about SM/WW's son, Alex Ross can pitch a book about SM/WW's 5 children in the KCverse, lol. 🤣

Their most notable, memorable stories are “elseworlds”. So special limited projects are definitely needed.

[Last Son of Krypton]

LOL...I thought with a business, good sales are a factor? I don’t get that logic at all

It feels like they view books like SM/WW that do good but don't have out-of-the-norm sales (100k) as interchangeable. 🤔

Well from the initial teams stance and storylines you had the “real Superman is back”, “this is the Superman you should love”...Wonder Woman’s whole first arc was throwing her entire new52 history under the bus calling it “lies”. It wasn’t mentioned directly by them, but indirectly to have this ok’ed wasn’t it either.
So detractors were able to use that even though even in DC’s encyclopedias or the actually story before trying to rewrite it all to fit this false narrative, says otherwise.

This is why it should’ve been left alone. New52 should’ve been set on another line then instead of what they did.

I get your point. Both for pettiness or for prop the status quo they had to sell, some writers lacked tact for deal with what came before ending up validating the haters in one way or another.

I think in ways, it helped and hurt them in long term. Especially Superman. Wonder Woman, I think stayed neutral until just straight up being directionless and her supporting cast just wasn’t stable nor was interesting.

Agreed. Although in different ways for each character, writers are now conflicted on who SM and WW are as a result of having different contradictory portraits in the course of their history.

[LoveStar]

It feels like they view books like SM/WW that do good but don't have out-of-the-norm sales (100k) as interchangeable. 🤔

They thought dropping SMWW and BMSM for one book “Trinity” would be a fair swap or sell more “combined”. But not only did it not reach what either debuted but dropped faster as well. So yeah...maybe their views need to change in ways.

I get your point. Both for pettiness or for prop the status quo they had to sell, some writers lacked tact for deal with what came before ending up validating the haters in one way or another.

If you have the confidence in a concept, it should sell itself. It’s totally unnecessary to drag down something else to do so and try to validate and prop certain status quos. It’s petty all around whoever does it. It seemed at a moment, there was so much concern and focus about invalidating new52, what was afterwards became directionless. Wonder Woman is in such an awful position right now and still no stability what so ever. Superman is in a so-so position.

Writers stuck in their ways, they don’t have to like a certain concept but respect the fact that it did have its own fans, and it was successful period.

Agreed. Although in different ways for each character, writers are now conflicted on who SM and WW are as a result of having different contradictory portraits in the course of their history.

Well again it’s goes with the writers stuck in their ways thinking what they believe is right, is the end all be all. Now they are stuck with that mindset. But that can change with better communication, and creatives teams having the ability to be civil, respectful, and coordinate together.

[Deiasilva10]

Well from the initial teams stance and storylines you had the “real Superman is back”, “this is the Superman you should love”...Wonder Woman’s whole first arc was throwing her entire new52 history under the bus calling it “lies”. It wasn’t mentioned directly by them, but indirectly to have this ok’ed wasn’t it either.
So detractors were able to use that even though even in DC’s encyclopedias or the actually story before trying to rewrite it all to fit this false narrative, says otherwise.

All the arcs in rebirth serve to throw WW past "under the bus"... she is unrecognizable.

It feels like they view books like SM/WW that do good but don't have out-of-the-norm sales (100k) as interchangeable. ��

So literally everything that DC has at the moment is interchangeable because, except for specials, nothing surpasses the 100k mark in sales, not even Batman and JL that made 100k every month in new 52 reach this mark.



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[LoveStar]

All the arcs in rebirth serve to throw WW past "under the bus"... she is unrecognizable.

This is sadly true. And what’s worse is that their will never be an explanation of how she went 10 years living an illusion. That will never make sense.

So literally everything that DC has at the moment is interchangeable because, except for specials, nothing surpasses the 100k mark in sales, not even Batman and JL that made 100k every month in new 52 reach this mark.

LOL!
Welp...that pretty much just gave a whole different perspective and shows the double standards or contradictions of “creative (uncreative) vs financial” decisions.

[Deiasilva10]

This is sadly true. And what’s worse is that their will never be an explanation of how she went 10 years living an illusion. That will never make sense.

Hahahahaha point me something that makes sense in Rebirth and I'll pay you a pizza!

LOL!
Welp...that pretty much just gave a whole different perspective and shows the double standards or contradictions of “creative vs financial” decisions.

So I do not understand why they do not give us the multiverse! If the problem is not money or popularity should I then call lack of "vision" or perhaps fear of greatness? They could simply please most fans and thus democratically let us choose our best sellers. And I do not say this just for my own sake, I'm very sorry for the fans of JSA and other heroes ... of course I want SMWW together in an AU and I do not feel threatened at all if other SMs are with other companions, I know of the greatness the couple I ship and the huge crowd that likes them ... what I still do not understand is why DC does not allow it, it does not give us the multiverse!

[LoveStar]

Hahahahaha point me something that makes sense in Rebirth and I'll pay you a pizza!

LOL never getting that pizza then....😕

So I do not understand why they do not give us the multiverse! If the problem is not money or popularity should I then call lack of "vision" or perhaps fear of greatness? They could simply please most fans and thus democratically let us choose our best sellers. And I do not say this just for my own sake, I'm very sorry for the fans of JSA and other heroes ... of course I want SMWW together in an AU and I do not feel threatened at all if other SMs are with other companions, I know of the greatness the couple I ship and the huge crowd that likes them ... what I still do not understand is why DC does not allow it, it does not give us the multiverse!

With the whole “back to basics” mentality...however that’s suppose to be defined. Yeah, in some ways there is a lack of taking of risks ad keeping up with creative expectations unless it’s a pet project/character.

I still would love an SMWW anthology type book exploring the different aspects of their relationship be it “just friends” 😜 or a couple.

[Deiasilva10]

LOL never getting that pizza then....��



With the whole “back to basics” mentality...however that’s suppose to be defined. Yeah, in some ways there is a lack of taking of risks ad keeping up with creative expectations unless it’s a pet project/character.

I still would love an SMWW anthology type book exploring the different aspects of their relationship be it “just friends” �� or a couple.

SMWW has a long and deep relationship since the 60s if I'm not mistaken, an anthology would be perfect, a way to "educate" some people who speak with bad faith and lack of knowledge of the cause ...

[LoveStar]

SMWW has a long and deep relationship since the 60s if I'm not mistaken, an anthology would be perfect, a way to "educate" some people who speak with bad faith and lack of knowledge of the cause ...

Exactly!! Each story in different era. Being a couple or not, writer’s choice. Opportunity to show how they as individuals and as partners have evolved throughout the years. Writing the different power levels for that time, the different real life situations of each era, different designs etc...it’s just so much they can do with this kind of set up.

[Last Son of Krypton]

They thought dropping SMWW and BMSM for one book “Trinity” would be a fair swap or sell more “combined”. But not only did it not reach what either debuted but dropped faster as well. So yeah...maybe their views need to change in ways.

And Trinity will be belatedly replaced by the upcoming BM/SM book. The only loss is the SM/WW side.

If you have the confidence in a concept, it should sell itself. It’s totally unnecessary to drag down something else to do so and try to validate and prop certain status quos. It’s petty all around whoever does it. It seemed at a moment, there was so much concern and focus about invalidating new52, what was afterwards became directionless. Wonder Woman is in such an awful position right now and still no stability what so ever. Superman is in a so-so position.

Writers stuck in their ways, they don’t have to like a certain concept but respect the fact that it did have its own fans, and it was successful period.

They had to swap a Superman with another one without a reboot, there was no way that whatever they wrote wouldn't come off as petty. For Rucka was personal, I think. It was his take vs Azzarello's. Also, his "WW: Year One" was previously rejected by DC for Morrison's WW: EO and he left DC for that if I'm not mistaken.

Rucka was the one that had Diana looking cold and shallow to undermine her relationship (both platonic and romantic) with Superman. Again, just one writer being unprofessional for childish reason. 🙄

So literally everything that DC has at the moment is interchangeable because, except for specials, nothing surpasses the 100k mark in sales, not even Batman and JL that made 100k every month in new 52 reach this mark.

Well, Batman still sell twice or more than any other character and have a well defined mythos. SM and WW undergo many changes of continuity/mythos/status-quo and keep selling the same no matter what they try with them.

[LoveStar]

And Trinity will be belatedly replaced by the upcoming BM/SM book. The only loss is the SM/WW side.

Of course. Anything with Bats, there’s no hesitation to green light. As well as the boys club mentality of “World’s Finest”. The “Trinity” concept when trying to have a combined book or whatever shows just how unbalanced the concept is. It doesn’t work the way they are trying. With BM/SM and SMWW separate, that’s how it works.

And then the biggest issue is SMWW doesn’t have any kind of connection but it was easy to have Batman and Superman reconnect.

They had to swap a Superman with another one without a reboot, there was no way that whatever they wrote wouldn't come off as petty. For Rucka was personal, I think. It was his take vs Azzarello's. Also, his "WW: Year One" was previously rejected by DC for Morrison's WW: EO and he left DC for that if I'm not mistaken.

Rucka was the one that had Diana looking cold and shallow to undermine her relationship (both platonic and romantic) with Superman. Again, just one writer being unprofessional for childish reason. 🙄

They should’ve did a reboot anyway because none of these character interactions feel organic and natural. It’s superficial, stiff and robotic.

LOL regardless of Azzarello’s Amazon controversy, his Wonder Woman is still the most critically acclaimed modern Wonder Woman run, as well as the one most recommended (besides Perez) to actually bring in new interest. His Gods had personality, even his Amazons too.

“Year One” also isn’t compelling. Diana having some doe-eyed little girl mentality and the Gods as Disney animals? I also couldn’t take Ares as a serious threat. “Earth One” isn’t exactly kicking either story wise but art is good.

Diana’s relationship with Clark actually has development and doesn’t take Diana being guilt tripped into anything or having a mental break down. Whether romantic or platonic, they had a dynamic others couldn’t have. That’s just how it is. No need to be petty and childish because the writer’s preference not only doesn’t work the same but doesn’t work at all.

Well, Batman still sell twice or more that any other character and have a well defined mythos. SM and WW undergo many changes of continuity/mythos/status-quo and keep selling the same no matter what they try with them.

This is why SM and WW can’t be stuck with one option. Their fan bases are divided so these two need different perspectives.

[Deiasilva10]

And Trinity will be belatedly replaced by the upcoming BM/SM book. The only loss is the SM/WW side.

They had to swap a Superman with another one without a reboot, there was no way that whatever they wrote wouldn't come off as petty. For Rucka was personal, I think. It was his take vs Azzarello's. Also, his "WW: Year One" was previously rejected by DC for Morrison's WW: EO and he left DC for that if I'm not mistaken.

Rucka was the one that had Diana looking cold and shallow to undermine her relationship (both platonic and romantic) with Superman. Again, just one writer being unprofessional for childish reason. ��

Well, Batman still sell twice or more than any other character and have a well defined mythos. SM and WW undergo many changes of continuity/mythos/status-quo and keep selling the same no matter what they try with them.

Rebirth was the worst thing that happened to WW, she lost relevance, lost credibility, lost powers, lost her personality, lost her intelligence ... became a generic character, no seasoning. The current phase of DC is a boys' club where only the girlfriends have any relevance and I see no one, no feminist for convenience, of those who screamed that dating Superman would lessen the WW claiming it ... it's a hypocrisy without limits! Rucka destroyed the WW irrevocably, something he tried several times but fortunately had not gotten it before. As a woman I abhor everything he's done to her ... Superman is not in better shape either! It is a fact that both just reach their full potential when they are together.

As for Batman to be selling, it is more because the fans are faithful than the quality of the stories, just talk to any fan more conscious of him that you perceive the dissatisfaction with the present phase of the hero.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Of course. Anything with Bats, there’s no hesitation to green light. As well as the boys club mentality of “World’s Finest”. The “Trinity” concept when trying to have a combined book or whatever shows just how unbalanced the concept is. It doesn’t work the way they are trying. With BM/SM and SMWW separate, that’s how it works.

And then the biggest issue is SMWW doesn’t have any kind of connection but it was easy to have Batman and Superman reconnect.

That's how they were originally. Maybe DC should turn into a trio also Barry/Hal/Ollie and see what happen. 😅 Btw, the sad thing is that the Trinity concept originated from KC but there's nothing left that resemble that dynamic in the current depiction of it.

They should’ve did a reboot anyway because none of these character interactions feel organic and natural. It’s superficial, stiff and robotic.

Doing a line wide reboot just to introduce the new Superboy? Lol, wasn't it already enough what they did to the Superman line for him? 🤣

LOL regardless of Azzarello’s Amazon controversy, his Wonder Woman is still the most critically acclaimed modern Wonder Woman run, as well as the one most recommended (besides Perez) to actually bring in new interest. His Gods had personality, even his Amazons too.

“Year One” also isn’t compelling. Diana having some doe-eyed little girl mentality and the Gods as Disney animals? I also couldn’t take Ares as a serious threat. “Earth One” isn’t exactly kicking either story wise but art is good.

Azzarello's Gods could've being kept instead of being replaced by "Disney animals" that are already being ignored anyway.

Diana’s relationship with Clark actually has development and doesn’t take Diana being guilt tripped into anything or having a mental break down. Whether romantic or platonic, they had a dynamic others couldn’t have. That’s just how it is. No need to be petty and childish because the writer’s preference not only doesn’t work the same but doesn’t work at all.

This fan-fiction-y 'shipper nonsense is my main issue with Rucka's work on WW. It's just silly. He even had other writers involved in his 'ship thing and one ended up in a shitstorm in his place. 🤣 You know who I'm referring to. 😅 Don't mess with SM/WW for that.

This is why SM and WW can’t be stuck with one option. Their fan bases are divided so these two need different perspectives.

I believe it's also possible to find a middle-ground of their different depictions.