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  1. #481
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    And Lois just walking away barely into their little "space trip"? Clark and Lois jut brushing it all off after the fact? Even going with a dubious person that had been responsible for numerous atrocities the last time he was seen?
    I, too, have major, major issues with this.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    And seemingly no rescue effort is put together. Alfred is simply aware that they're alive, and just assumes they'll be home into for school? So, yeah, you're right it's super different because in Super Sons it was known that they were in unsupervised danger from the very start. I think there's a pretty real double standard here.
    Again, there is a huge difference. This maxi isn't a place where deep character work or things of consequence are happening. Nothing here is supposed to be taken that seriously, even compared to original Super Sons run (which is part of why people didn't get as invested in it). This is Tiny Toons: How I Spent My Summer Vacation. Buster and Bab's parents never ask where the hell those two have disappeared to while their on their river rafting adventure, because that's not the point. Hell, it doesn't actually make sense that Jon and Damian were gone for months because not that much time had passed in story. The only reason was to make a joke at the end about the two of them wasting their summer vacation. In fact, I think Tiny Toons made the exact same joke. Basically, you're applying a level of seriousness that is not meant to be applied.

    On the other hand, Bendis's Superman we are meant to take the events and the character work more seriously. Clark and Lois are actually characters, not just something you need to wave away for a gag. We're suppose to take what they are doing with more gravity and understanding and as such they get held to a higher standard of parenting there than here. So when they let their son go off with a known kidnapper and there are terrible consequences, we can object to that, but not to this. It's not hypocritical as much as you seem to want it to be. The reality is that it is a very different story and much be received in a very different way.
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  3. #483
    Fantastic Member MeGrimlock420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    And seemingly no rescue effort is put together. Alfred is simply aware that they're alive, and just assumes they'll be home in time for school? So, yeah, you're right it's super different because in Super Sons it was known that they were in unsupervised danger from the very start. I think there's a pretty real double standard here, but maybe that's just me, I guess.
    Damian the whole time was to get both Jon and himself back to earth when they were abducted.

    Lois on on the hand left her kid with a man she doesn't know. She didn't even bother bringing back a communicator to be to talk to her own kid. Jor-El could've been doing evil stuff in space and Lois wouldn't care because she much rather write a book than find out what her kid has been doing in space.

  4. #484
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    I did once bring up the lack of consequences Jon suffered under Tomasi's pen for some of the reckless things to befall him in his "adventures" compared to Bendis where we actually saw consequences. The issue I see here is that Tomasi wasn't writing that story and Bendis used it to tell his story.
    Yeah, I feel like it's really just that simple.
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  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Yeah, I feel like it's really just that simple.
    It's not. I know you want to believe there is bias against Bendis as the reasoning here, but it really isn't. I had no experience with Bendis prior to him coming to DC. I liked much of Man of Steel, beyond the awful fifth issue and sending Jon and Lois off into space thing. I still like much of Action Comics. Young Justice has pacing issues, but is fine. I'm actually going back and reading Bendis's Marvel stuff (though I've only done Alias so far), and I'm enjoying it. But with Jon and generally in the Superman comics, Bendis has just told a really crappy story with a result that wasn't earned and a lot of people don't like. It's that simple. It's not just cause Bendis did it. If any other writer (Tomasi included) wrote that crap I'd have a problem with that too.
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  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Nothing here is supposed to be taken that seriously
    This feeling like blatant moving of the goal post given this conversation started with someone saying "Alfred was keeping tabs on the children for superman, batman and lois all along. And they justify superfamily leaving jon in space without anyway to track them or to know their conditions is very in character. It is not. Atleast, for rebirth superman." But, sure, that's fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    It's not. I know you want to believe there is bias against Bendis as the reasoning here, but it really isn't.
    I don't think it's a bias against specifically Bendis per se, but rather the fact that what he wrote changed Jon physically. And there's nothing that says everyone has to like it--I'd never argue that--but it genuinely feels like straw man are made with some of these arguments.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 07-04-2019 at 12:26 PM.
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  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    This feeling like blatant moving of the goal post given this conversation started with someone saying "Alfred was keeping tabs on the children for superman, batman and lois all along. And they justify superfamily leaving jon in space without anyway to track them or to know their conditions is very in character. It is not. Atleast, for rebirth superman." But, sure, that's fine.
    Yeah, wasn't me, so I wasn't moving goal posts, but sure, make sweeping generalizations about our arguments to prove your point. That's fine.
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  8. #488
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    I think not taking the maxi seriously is a matter of opinion, not something DC explicitly spelt out.

    Tomasi had a way of writing Jon's stories in such a way that felt like even when something serious happened to him, it would be brushed aside in the next installment and it wasn't limited to the maxi. There's a lot of traumatic nonsense Jon experienced but Tomasi didn't intend to let those moments simmer past an issue or two. There were no serious consequences because he wasn't telling THAT story. So we moved past a lot of things that would have painted Clark and Lois as bad parents because Jon was a-okay by next issue or so. Lois and Clark were very protective but they were also very lax in other instances.

    It's not a slight against Tomasi, I loved his Jon stuff and this isn't me trying to sell Bendis as some great writer either. I just find it peculiar that one writer is praised and another is lambasted for essentially doing the same thing but with different characters, and the former made sure Jon got home safe at the end of the day despite the many dangers Jon faced, while the latter didn't because THAT is the story he chose to tell.

    I hate Jon's aging but I'm not approaching it from a "Bendis is a hack writer who has ruined my favourite characters" stance but rather from a "something was bound to go wrong eventually and there'd be no easy fix or reseting for the next issue" position. I have never seen Lois or Clark as perfect people therefore I never expected to be 110% perfect at parenting or making the correct/right/perfect decision concerning Jon ALL of the time (imo they didn't while under Tomasi's penmanship) some things just worked out for them and I was fine with that but truthfully parenting isn't always sunshine and roses even with the very best and well thought out intentions. There's always going to be that one thing that goes at a tangent and tilts the world and Bendis did that much to my dislike of the aging but I get it.

    As for Jor-El, just because we readers don't know what happened to him after he was freed from the mind control, I never took that to mean the same applied to Clark. I believe at the time it was implied Doomsday Clock would shed light about that missing period to explain Jor-El showing at Clark's home and for it to not be anything more than an annoyance at his ship appearing into the middle of his home because MoS took place after DDC, basically stuff went on off panel to explain Clark relenting to his wife and son leaving with Jor-El. I'd wager and say more happened while Lois was in space than Bendis showed. The story is obviously not finished. It may not enough for some but I feel differently so I want to see it play out, at least.

  9. #489
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Doomsday Clock is being treated as an Elseworlds by most writers at this point (it was said in a recent interview). So don't expect it to carry much weight going forward.

  10. #490
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    Well I don't know about that. It's probably a consequence of the delays. I don't think it changes how Bendis approached MoS. He purposefully used Jor-El because according to him, he was on the table and thus available. He still talks about DDC in a way that everything he's doing in the Super books won't contradict it even if the final issue takes another year before it sees the light of day. Make that what you will.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    I think not taking the maxi seriously is a matter of opinion, not something DC explicitly spelt out.

    Tomasi had a way of writing Jon's stories in such a way that felt like even when something serious happened to him, it would be brushed aside in the next installment and it wasn't limited to the maxi. There's a lot of traumatic nonsense Jon experienced but Tomasi didn't intend to let those moments simmer past an issue or two. There were no serious consequences because he wasn't telling THAT story. So we moved past a lot of things that would have painted Clark and Lois as bad parents because Jon was a-okay by next issue or so. Lois and Clark were very protective but they were also very lax in other instances.

    It's not a slight against Tomasi, I loved his Jon stuff and this isn't me trying to sell Bendis as some great writer either. I just find it peculiar that one writer is praised and another is lambasted for essentially doing the same thing but with different characters, and the former made sure Jon got home safe at the end of the day despite the many dangers Jon faced, while the latter didn't because THAT is the story he chose to tell.

    I hate Jon's aging but I'm not approaching it from a "Bendis is a hack writer who has ruined my favourite characters" stance but rather from a "something was bound to go wrong eventually and there'd be no easy fix or reseting for the next issue" position. I have never seen Lois or Clark as perfect people therefore I never expected to be 110% perfect at parenting or making the correct/right/perfect decision concerning Jon ALL of the time (imo they didn't while under Tomasi's penmanship) some things just worked out for them and I was fine with that but truthfully parenting isn't always sunshine and roses even with the very best and well thought out intentions. There's always going to be that one thing that goes at a tangent and tilts the world and Bendis did that much to my dislike of the aging but I get it.

    As for Jor-El, just because we readers don't know what happened to him after he was freed from the mind control, I never took that to mean the same applied to Clark. I believe at the time it was implied Doomsday Clock would shed light about that missing period to explain Jor-El showing at Clark's home and for it to not be anything more than an annoyance at his ship appearing into the middle of his home because MoS took place after DDC, basically stuff went on off panel to explain Clark relenting to his wife and son leaving with Jor-El. I'd wager and say more happened while Lois was in space than Bendis showed. The story is obviously not finished. It may not enough for some but I feel differently so I want to see it play out, at least.
    Because as I said, it isn't the same story and it isn't the same kind of story being told. If someone has a piano dropped on them in Looney Tunes and walks away, that fine. If the same thing happens in Star Wars, my suspension of disbelief is tested. This is even the case of within universes as well. Using John Noble's voice to trick the minions of the big bad was great on Legends of Tomorrow, but if they pulled that with Michael Dorn's voice on Arrow, it wouldn't have worked. Different stories that ask the reader or viewer to approach them with a different frame of mind. Adventures of the Super Sons is a Saturday morning kid's cartoon. Bendis's Superman is a space opera. Different ways of approaching the story.

    DC doesn't need to explicitly tell us how to spell that out, as we can read the story and see it clear as day for ourselves. Peter David's Young Justice and Geoff John's Teen Titans are also very different ways of telling a story with the same characters, but operate in very different realities (despite them being the same characters in the same world). Something that Peter David does in Young Justice wouldn't work if Geoff John's tried to do the same thing in Teen Titans. We're going to see the same thing with Fraction's Jimmy Olson. Ways that Clark, Lois, and Perry behave there will work in way that it won't if they did the same things in the main comic. You have to talk into account what kind of world the writer is creating, even if it is in a shared universe.

    Bendis is trying to sell a story of big stake and consequences without actually earning them with characters behaving in a way that justifies those story beats. Clark, Lois, and Jon have to react to things that don't just seem out of character, but seem contrary to how people realistically react to things, while trying to sell it as a story with believable character work. Fill in the blanks doesn't work as a justification and even if Johns touches the Jor-El issue in the last two issues of Doomsday Clock (which seems unlikely, but possible), it doesn't leave time for them to build a relationship of trust that sending Jon with him would require. Bendis's problem is that he has a status quo he wants

    For the record, I don't think a story with consequences for Jon's exploration to be a bad idea. I just think that, one, this story did a real bad job at it, and, two, an age-up is a terrible consequence as it closes more doors than it opens and it robs the DC Universe of a unique pre-teen perspective.

    Either way, I wish people would stop trying to attach this label of Sam thinks Bendis is a hack writer to me. It's getting old and I've never said that. I just really hate his work on the Superman title and especially with Jon's character. He's done stuff I like, which I've said repeatedly.
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  12. #492

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    And seemingly no rescue effort is put together. Alfred is simply aware that they're alive, and just assumes they'll be home in time for school? So, yeah, you're right it's super different because in Super Sons it was known that they were in unsupervised danger from the very start. I think there's a pretty real double standard here, but maybe that's just me, I guess.
    We don't know that for sure.Since bruce and clark can track them and their vitals. They must have concluded they weren't beyond their arms lengths, figuratively speaking. Rebirth clark wouldn't have let jon be in a place were bruce and clark can't reach. They must have thought they were on an adventure,not kidnapped. As they have snuck out before. Besides it was holidays, they must have wanted to give them some slack.they don't know jon and damian were kidnapped. Jon was staying at Bruce’s place for the summer.

    Clark has come to trust damian with Jon's life as well. At this point, clark has a great respect for damian as jon's peer and friend.he has trust in alfred as well. Clark has no reason to trust a stranger like jor el with his son. Alfred and damian have both earned trust from clark regarding jon because of their shared experiences. I don't think rebirth clark would allow jon to be sent with sam lane.who at this point is less of a stranger to jon,let alone jor el.

    Like i said, rebirth clark had always bent because of his childs needs.even bendis, got that part right in man of steel when reluctantly let him go, only at the condition of having lois with him. But, clark never broke or stopped trying. After that, in superman series he did. He decided to stop searching for his son and not ask friends for help who could have easily located jon. That's when clark broke.
    Parents have to make compromises regarding their childern when in difficult situations. But the problem is, Bendis's superman has given up on bargaining for a better deal in compromises.
    There is a double standard. Jor el ain't damian or alfred. Damian and alfred actually knows jon and have stuck with him in hard times. Jor el hasn't.

  13. #493

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    I think not taking the maxi seriously is a matter of opinion, not something DC explicitly spelt out.

    Tomasi had a way of writing Jon's stories in such a way that felt like even when something serious happened to him, it would be brushed aside in the next installment and it wasn't limited to the maxi. There's a lot of traumatic nonsense Jon experienced but Tomasi didn't intend to let those moments simmer past an issue or two. There were no serious consequences because he wasn't telling THAT story. So we moved past a lot of things that would have painted Clark and Lois as bad parents because Jon was a-okay by next issue or so. Lois and Clark were very protective but they were also very lax in other instances.

    It's not a slight against Tomasi, I loved his Jon stuff and this isn't me trying to sell Bendis as some great writer either. I just find it peculiar that one writer is praised and another is lambasted for essentially doing the same thing but with different characters, and the former made sure Jon got home safe at the end of the day despite the many dangers Jon faced, while the latter didn't because THAT is the story he chose to tell.

    I hate Jon's aging but I'm not approaching it from a "Bendis is a hack writer who has ruined my favourite characters" stance but rather from a "something was bound to go wrong eventually and there'd be no easy fix or reseting for the next issue" position. I have never seen Lois or Clark as perfect people therefore I never expected to be 110% perfect at parenting or making the correct/right/perfect decision concerning Jon ALL of the time (imo they didn't while under Tomasi's penmanship) some things just worked out for them and I was fine with that but truthfully parenting isn't always sunshine and roses even with the very best and well thought out intentions. There's always going to be that one thing that goes at a tangent and tilts the world and Bendis did that much to my dislike of the aging but I get it.

    As for Jor-El, just because we readers don't know what happened to him after he was freed from the mind control, I never took that to mean the same applied to Clark. I believe at the time it was implied Doomsday Clock would shed light about that missing period to explain Jor-El showing at Clark's home and for it to not be anything more than an annoyance at his ship appearing into the middle of his home because MoS took place after DDC, basically stuff went on off panel to explain Clark relenting to his wife and son leaving with Jor-El. I'd wager and say more happened while Lois was in space than Bendis showed. The story is obviously not finished. It may not enough for some but I feel differently so I want to see it play out, at least.
    I agree with the @bold jon did go through a lot shit like being tortured and kidnapped in tomasi's run which was brushed off. But, i don't understand how that makes lois and clark bad parents? It's not like they gave Manchester black or mxyzpitlk keys to do whatever they want with jon. It was out of their control. Lois even got injured trying to rescue jon.

    I don't agree with the rest. The difference is that It didn't stop Lois and clark from trying. The problem is tomasi tries to make sure that audiences know that clois as parents are trying to do their best with their weird mischievous kid. So, even if they failed it would have been a tragedy. Which was bendis going for. But, Bendis's clois doesn't feel like trying their best or at all. so, no sense of tragedy and We criticis bendis for clois not being fleshed out for the age up tragedy. bendis makes it seem like whatever happened to jon was on clois. And do not show us anything so that we can relate to clois's helplessness regarding the situation and as parents.

    It's like collateral damage issue in man of Steel movie. people complain about clark not showing concern regarding the collateral Damage.what they mean is that they would have liked more scenes with clark trying to save more people and failing because of his opponents. And then have clark conclude to finish the job at hand to end the destruction . In the movie, clark arrives to that conclusion without going through the steps. which made people feel he is uncaring.

    I don't know anything about ddc connection. But, for now jon being left with jor el will be a sour spot.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-04-2019 at 05:24 PM.

  14. #494
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    We don't know that for sure.
    See this is that double standard stuff, man. It's not explicitly stated in the text that Bruce, Clark, and Lois did anything more than worry. That's all it says in the text, but you're still assuming more may have been done or could have been done by them. But when Clark is literally shown talking to Martian Manhunter about finding other option to get in contact with his wife and son, you assume that's all he did. When Clark is literally shown physically searching frantically for them in space, you assume he didn't do much more. But Alfred makes one off hand comment about his parents just worrying till Alfred apparently just saying "they look fine on this vital monitor I'm looking at, so they must be okay" is enough to satisfy them, and neither Lois, Clark, nor Bruce are even there waiting up worried for them, they get a pass?

    Like, dude, this is an honest-to-goodness double standard.

    Clark has come to trust damian with Jon's life as well. At this point, clark has a great respect for damian as jon's peer and friend.
    Damian is also a child, powerless in the grand sense, and no more accustom to space/dimensional travel than Jon.

    Alfred and damian have both earned trust from clark regarding jon because of their shared experiences.
    Clark trusting Alfred and Damian is besides the point because Alfred never explicitly stated that he had a way of knowing anything more than that the boys are breathing. Their vitals could've been faked. The way Alfred speaks, it seems as though he didn't even know specifically where they were or what they were doing. It seems like the only thing he knew was that they were breathing.

    But, clark never broke or stopped trying.
    Apparently he did. After Alfred told him "eh, Jon'll likely be back before school starts" Clark was good with just waiting at home and doing his normal thing. There was never anything stated or shown in the text (to my knowledge) that showed looking for Jon and Damian.

    Parents have to make compromises regarding their childern when in difficult situations.
    Clark apparently compromised just fine here. He's never even shown looking for Jon. He's good with just going off Alfred's assumptions and only the fact that Jon is breathing.
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  15. #495
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    This is why I'm not convinced there's that big a difference between Bendis and Tomasi regarding the danger they put Jon in and the role Lois and Clark play in Jon's upbringing and the danger that comes with that task because of who he is/whose son he is, what they think is permissible for Jon to experience either by choice or accidental. The two writers may have had different narrative/end results (story intent) but that never actually changed the context in which Jon's life being put through the wringer and L&C not always being there to catch him every time something went horribly wrong. I will say that Bendis having Lois, Jon and Clark physically separated for a period hasn't worked in his favour, since it's only amplifies the dissatisfaction. So the narrative is more criticised compared to Tomasi, who kept the family unit in tact despite us never seeing the three of them together all of the time, even when similar crap was happening across both his books.

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