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  1. #286
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Because though it pains me to admit it, she doesn't really make financial sense given that data. They can't kneecap Nightwing enough to make fans give up on the guy, and boy have they tried. They're pulling everything they can away and he still sells. He's the star of their flagship TV show on their streaming app. Fans cannot shut up about the dude.
    Well Dick Grayson is the greatest human being alive, so it's not really fair to compare.

    Who is talking about Karen except us old fans who love her dearly? What makes her more deserving of a solo than, say, Mera? Zatanna?
    Want people talking about Karen? Might help (among other things) to pair her up with a new love interest. Some guy who is super hot, objectified just as much as she is.....he's gotta be able to keep up with her, so prior experience with metahumans would be nice. The guy has to be pretty great, and do something to help his community like a fire fighter, cop, or even another hero. And it might be nice if he was also a legacy of some kind, since Karen's got ties to Superman. Maybe just to play up some contrast this love interest could be a important, beloved member of his mentor's family (since Karen's the black sheep of the Supers).

    I'm being real subtle here right? It's Nightwing. He should be the love interest. I'm just using this as an excuse to pitch my ship.

    But really, what makes Karen more worthy of a solo than Mera or Fire & Ice or Batwoman (or any of the C-list guys like Booster?) Nothing. But nothing really makes her less worthy either. Who's got a story to tell that'll fill the right niche in the publishing line? Who's got something worth saying? Really, that's what it often comes down to, I think. They'll publish Batman and the big names no matter what. If Aquaman sells like crap, he just gets a new creative team and a new #1. But the C-list? That's often less a case of which character is most viable (because really, none of them are worth much on their own) and more about what creator has the best story to tell. I mean, the only reason Adam Strange is getting a book is because a writer has a story they want to tell with him. That's not a character DC decided to actively invest in; they don't care about Adam Strange they care that their writer has an interesting story. If Tom King had pitched Vibe instead, that's what we'd be getting.

    If someone has a Power Girl pitch and DC thinks it's better than the other pitches they've got, it'll get published. I dont think DC keeps a scorecard for the C-list. You're right though, that Karen needs a team book (preferably the JSA) to build momentum in. It seems like she's gotta be visible so people don't forget she exists, but once they remember her they also remember how fun she is and her popularity seems to increase quite naturally.
    Last edited by Ascended; 12-13-2019 at 10:42 PM.
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  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    If someone has a Power Girl pitch and DC thinks it's better than the other pitches they've got, it'll get published. I dont think DC keeps a scorecard for the C-list. You're right though, that Karen needs a team book (preferably the JSA) to build momentum in. It seems like she's gotta be visible so people don't forget she exists, but once they remember her they also remember how fun she is and her popularity seems to increase quite naturally.
    Considering DC turned down a Power Girls mini series starring Karen and Tanya from Priest, I'm kind of cynical of them publishing it no matter how good the pitch is. They've turned down good ideas and accepted bad ones a lot of times.

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Considering DC turned down a Power Girls mini series starring Karen and Tanya from Priest, I'm kind of cynical of them publishing it no matter how good the pitch is. They've turned down good ideas and accepted bad ones a lot of times.
    I'm almost kind of glad they turned that down, since Spears was created IMO to completely replace Power Girl. I think they were and probably still are, planning on never reintroducing her to the DCU. That makes me sad.

    If they really plan on shelving her permanently, and it seems they are given how long she's been completely out of print or at least no relevant, which has now been since Flashpoint, that's a waste. Even more than characters like Fire or Ice, she's a blank slate with nothing really known about her earlier life, ready for a smart and determined writer to put his or her stamp on the character.

    All she needs is her own version of what Simone did for BOP, WW, or Secret Six, or what Perez did for WW. A patron with some pull at DC, and the freedom and vision to build her up. It is I admit very, very hard to build up support for a character who hasn't really been around for a decade who is in fact at this point just another version of a more popular and vastly more used character, SG. Which is why the longer she goes unused, the less chance we'll ever see her again IMO. It's also sad that even in her own app thread, she can't get support for a solo title. Probably again a function of DC never showing the character she could be, and always could have been, only giving us glimpses, and mostly long ago, and a function of her simply not being around at all.

  4. #289
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well Dick Grayson is the greatest human being alive, so it's not really fair to compare.



    Want people talking about Karen? Might help (among other things) to pair her up with a new love interest. Some guy who is super hot, objectified just as much as she is.....he's gotta be able to keep up with her, so prior experience with metahumans would be nice. The guy has to be pretty great, and do something to help his community like a fire fighter, cop, or even another hero. And it might be nice if he was also a legacy of some kind, since Karen's got ties to Superman. Maybe just to play up some contrast this love interest could be a important, beloved member of his mentor's family (since Karen's the black sheep of the Supers).

    I'm being real subtle here right? It's Nightwing. He should be the love interest. I'm just using this as an excuse to pitch my ship.

    But really, what makes Karen more worthy of a solo than Mera or Fire & Ice or Batwoman (or any of the C-list guys like Booster?) Nothing. But nothing really makes her less worthy either. Who's got a story to tell that'll fill the right niche in the publishing line? Who's got something worth saying? Really, that's what it often comes down to, I think. They'll publish Batman and the big names no matter what. If Aquaman sells like crap, he just gets a new creative team and a new #1. But the C-list? That's often less a case of which character is most viable (because really, none of them are worth much on their own) and more about what creator has the best story to tell. I mean, the only reason Adam Strange is getting a book is because a writer has a story they want to tell with him. That's not a character DC decided to actively invest in; they don't care about Adam Strange they care that their writer has an interesting story. If Tom King had pitched Vibe instead, that's what we'd be getting.

    If someone has a Power Girl pitch and DC thinks it's better than the other pitches they've got, it'll get published. I dont think DC keeps a scorecard for the C-list. You're right though, that Karen needs a team book (preferably the JSA) to build momentum in. It seems like she's gotta be visible so people don't forget she exists, but once they remember her they also remember how fun she is and her popularity seems to increase quite naturally.
    And I'm with you (especially with the Nightwing pairing, you've sold me on that entirely earlier in the thread) but unlike some of those other characters I listed, there's no inherent hook for PG to snag fans with right now. I feel that without some huge pitch (and let's face it, there isn't one. Priest came along with Power Girls and that didn't take, as I understand it, so what else can you do), she's destined to fail at this very moment. Why did I list Mera, Zatanna and Fire/Ice? The first two are currently in books and have fanbases and a hook they can use. They have established relationships to other characters also in use (Arthur and Atlantis for Mera, Constantine and the JLD for Zee). Fire and Ice was essentially my lateral move. They don't have a real hook either. Is PG less deserving? I'd actually say she is, at least in Mera's case, but this is more about where the characters are now as opposed to their depth or worth. Constant presence since Blackest Night all the way back in '09, queen of Atlantis, has a built up rivalry with Orm and her sister, soon to be a mother and has a love interest people really like and was recently in a movie that had a billion dollar box office. She's got everything she needs!

    PG needs to be established again. She's an amazing character, one of my favorites (even when I'm strapped for time, I always seem to have a minute to talk about her) and could absolutely carry a book if given the right attention! I just don't think she'd survive long enough right now to get to the point where the pieces are on the board for her. Without the JSA, Power Girls with Tanya as the co-lead is a good pitch. I also think a team-up with a rotating guest could be cool, but it'd be a stopgap to the JSA. She really, really needs to just be back on everyone's radar outside of cosplay or fan art.

    Let's bring it back to Mera. I loved her from Silver Age reprints and after Aquababy died and she kind of hated Arthur, she was just marginalized and treated like Arthur's awful ex wife. Later they tried to fix her to minimal success and when Arthur died, she kind of did nothing and faded into obscurity until Geoff Johns revamped her into (by his own admission) the queen from 300. He gave her a new lease on life. People fell in love with her anew (I did, and I loved her classic characterization even if it wasn't that deep). I think PG, more than anything, needs a writer who champions her the way Jimmy and Amanda seem to, but with some more pull. Geoff is just work-for-hire in comics as it seems, so who even is there? She needs to recapture readers and build some new ones. Time will tell if that can happen. I hope it does. She's such a wonderful character and it's a shame that DC have seemingly abandoned her.
    Last edited by Robanker; 12-14-2019 at 07:13 PM.

  5. #290
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    I would agree that PG needs a hook, and I've been saying that since before she was removed from DC's lineup at Flashpoint. She needs something to differentiate her from SG and something that makes her unique in DC, gives her a unique role therein, and one that helps people to continue to like her...AND she needs to have that happen while maintaining the aspects of her character that make people like her currently and in the past. She also does need a powerful patron at DC, since that seems to be how things happen. Sadly, she doesn't have one AFAIK.

    Here's the thing though, you aren't going to establish her in any of those ways in the pages of JSA or any other team book; you're just not. It takes at least a mini, and more likely an ongoing. DC can have it's Supergirl AND a viable, popular PG too, but they need to play their cards right. First thing is they need to just do it, as Nike would say. Bring her back. Give her a solo title with a writer who has a vision for the character. Neither Palmiotti nor Winick in the second run seemed to have any place they were going with her, treating the title as merely a collection of somewhat related stories that said little about the title character that would take her away from Supergirl.

    Johns did rescue the character from oblivion in the early 2000s when she was only making infrequent appearances. But...not without quite a bit of prodding; I know, I was on the DCMB when this was happening, and Johns posted there frequently, especially in the JSA forum. Want to know what he said about PG? He said that he didn't like the character...and critically, that he did NOT understand her appeal. It took a sustained effort by PG fans to convince him to put her on the JSA...which to his credit he did after being begged to do so by many of the posters there, including obviously me. Thing is, he then proved his earlier statement that he didn't understand her character, reducing her most of the time to a crying...there's no other way to put it, loser who passively cried a lot about her fate, instead of punching said fate in the face really hard, as she should have. Virtually every chance he got her portrayed her that way, leaving her a spectator in her own stories, rescue bait for other heroes he liked better. And Palmiotti and Gray and Connor...well, THEY seemed to like PG...unfortunately, they have a certain...style, and that style really didn't fit the character, hence the dramatic sales drop during their run. They HAD a pitch on Rama well before their run was supposed to start, and it sounded good, Silver Agey, and unique....but they ignored that in favor of...well, what they went with. For the record, and it seems to have been lost beyond any way back finding, but it involved IIRC things like time traveling ray gun toting Neanderthals, magic sheet music, and other similar things. Basically full on Silver Age.

    And that could be a general hook, make her more Silver Age, (she actually isn't Silver Age, but a creation of the Bronze Age, released a few months before Star Wars back in 1977). Getting that tone right might prove hard, but it would be worth it IMO. Darwyn Cooke would have been my dream writer/artist for her, but sadly...(though he did do a few commissions that are on the internet, portraying her as...Marilyn Monroeish sort of 50s superheroine). I think HE would have gotten her. Gail Simone seems to get her. Waid sort of seemed to get her in the few things I've seen him write her in. A few others have as well, (strangely Levitz, who established a lot of her early characterizations, changed her character completely for reasons I don't get for the nu52, though it later sort of reverted to a generic superhero characterization.

    For the future, I would think that any characterization of Power Girl needs to start with Krypton; that is, what was her life like there, what did she do? IMO they need to go with having her have been older than either of the other two while on Krypton; there are a multitude of ways they can explain why she would then be much younger than Superman on Earth, (and a few years older than SG). They also need to decide if they want to keep the Earth 2 origin, (or rather Krypton 2 origin) intact, or if they simply want to move her over the the main universe for her origin. Since DC seems to care much less about Earth 2, I'd suggest moving her to a main universe Krypton origin...which would mean the Zor-L part of her name would have to change; she'd have to stop being the same person as SG...which would probably help her with the brass at DC, who seem so puzzled by her origin that they seem to write her off right there. Make her an El, make her closely related to SM and SG, but give her a different gig. Maybe make her an explorer? A soldier who fought Zod? Connect her to that story Last God of Krypton somehow, to Rao and Cythonna and the Gods of Dawn? There are a LOT of hooks you could give her, and those are just a couple. A good writer who is passionate about the character can easily do her justice and give her a role in DC that could elevate her to the next level. Considering that she's currently virtually a blank slate, yet one that comes with a built-in fan base who would very much welcome her return, I'd think she might be easier to write great stories about that a much more well defined character like SG.

    But please keep her well away from the Mary Sue meant to replace her; I'm afraid they'd take the chance and just kill PG off as I think they've sort of wanted to for a long time.
    Last edited by achilles; 12-15-2019 at 06:56 AM.

  6. #291
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Considering DC turned down a Power Girls mini series starring Karen and Tanya from Priest, I'm kind of cynical of them publishing it no matter how good the pitch is. They've turned down good ideas and accepted bad ones a lot of times.
    So THAT's why they were stuck between dimensions only for Karen to later show up for a cameo without explanation. He meant to pick up the plot point but wasn't able to.
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  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    So THAT's why they were stuck between dimensions only for Karen to later show up for a cameo without explanation. He meant to pick up the plot point but wasn't able to.
    Wait, where did she show up after that in a cameo?

  8. #293
    Fantastic Member seccruz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Wait, where did she show up after that in a cameo?
    Deathstroke. After the Defiance story arc. Tanya finds the OG Karen stranded and finds a way to get to her. Sadly, she joins Karen with no idea how to leave.
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  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccruz View Post
    Deathstroke. After the Defiance story arc. Tanya finds the OG Karen stranded and finds a way to get to her. Sadly, she joins Karen with no idea how to leave.
    Thanks. Wonder if they'll run with that, assuming they ever try to bring PG back, or if they'll just forget it like so much else about her, and try something else entirely? It would be nice if they followed up on that hint of an epic storyline she got in the pages of Supergirl long ago. The one where Saturn Queen tells a captive PG about a war they fought through time for Supergirl, (in the Candor arc). It's possibly the only epic sounding story I've even seen hinted at for PG, so it would be nice to see it actually told.

  10. #295
    Incredible Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    What if power girl, nightwing and flash (wally) became the next generation "big 3" as a niche?

    Let's say after all this dark multiverse/crisis stuff bad guys/gals and monster and aliens are invading the main DCU. A new team is built to deal with multiversal threats that invades the main dcu.

    A team that's a mix of some of the most popular members of other popular teams.

    J.s.a) Power girl and captain atom
    Titans) nightwing and flash
    Outsiders) black lightning and katana
    JL) Jessica cruz.

    That could be power girls niche.
    Last edited by WonderNight; 12-15-2019 at 05:33 PM.

  11. #296
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Considering DC turned down a Power Girls mini series starring Karen and Tanya from Priest, I'm kind of cynical of them publishing it no matter how good the pitch is. They've turned down good ideas and accepted bad ones a lot of times.
    Considering it involved Tanya I'm not sure how good that pitch was. I mean, I trust Priest and if he was behind the story then odds are it was, at the very least, decent. But Tanya? Not a character I'd really want to push to the forefront. The community seemed to meet her with a big "meh" at best. Certainly Priest would've written the hell out of it, but leaning on Tanya as one half of your hook seems pretty questionable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    And I'm with you (especially with the Nightwing pairing, you've sold me on that entirely earlier in the thread) but unlike some of those other characters I listed, there's no inherent hook for PG to snag fans with right now. I feel that without some huge pitch (and let's face it, there isn't one. Priest came along with Power Girls and that didn't take, as I understand it, so what else can you do), she's destined to fail at this very moment.
    >shrug< Everyone fails until they don't. I mean, everything you said about Mera could easily happen with Karen. This isn't an easy industry, but sometimes I think it's not as impossible as we fans believe, either. All it takes is a hole in the publishing line and someone saying "screw it, whatever, we've got deadlines to meet!"

    I mean, right now DC is basically waging war on that entire age bracket; the Titans have been killed off, lobotomized, driven to alcoholism and murder, and even though the JSA are starting to make their way back into the DCU there's not even a hint of Infinity Inc. But crap like this always ebbs and flows and today's pariah is tomorrow's hot new title.
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  12. #297
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Considering it involved Tanya I'm not sure how good that pitch was. I mean, I trust Priest and if he was behind the story then odds are it was, at the very least, decent. But Tanya? Not a character I'd really want to push to the forefront. The community seemed to meet her with a big "meh" at best. Certainly Priest would've written the hell out of it, but leaning on Tanya as one half of your hook seems pretty questionable.



    >shrug< Everyone fails until they don't. I mean, everything you said about Mera could easily happen with Karen. This isn't an easy industry, but sometimes I think it's not as impossible as we fans believe, either. All it takes is a hole in the publishing line and someone saying "screw it, whatever, we've got deadlines to meet!"

    I mean, right now DC is basically waging war on that entire age bracket; the Titans have been killed off, lobotomized, driven to alcoholism and murder, and even though the JSA are starting to make their way back into the DCU there's not even a hint of Infinity Inc. But crap like this always ebbs and flows and today's pariah is tomorrow's hot new title.
    You're not wrong. I just question if this current editorial regime can actually foster a character like Karen given that, well, she's the antithesis to everything they believe in and she's not someone I feel comfortable in them getting right when she's got one hand tied behind her back and doesn't have something established to just roll with. For that reason, I do think Mera is probably positioned to succeed best right now... But like Lois Lane, you better believe I'll pick up every cover of every issue to support PG.
    Last edited by Robanker; 12-15-2019 at 07:51 PM.

  13. #298
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You're not wrong. I just question if this current editorial regime can actually foster a character like Karen given that, well, she's the antithesis to everything they believe in and she's not someone I feel comfortable in them getting right when she's got one hand tied behind her back and doesn't have something established to just roll with. For that reason, I do think Mera is probably positioned to succeed best right now... But like Lois Lane, you better believe I'll pick up every cover of every issue to support PG.
    The way things have been going yeah, I don't see Karen getting a break under the current management. But these are the guys who gave her last book the green light, too. I mean, I wouldn't hold my breath or anything, but crazier things have happened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Considering it involved Tanya I'm not sure how good that pitch was. I mean, I trust Priest and if he was behind the story then odds are it was, at the very least, decent. But Tanya? Not a character I'd really want to push to the forefront. The community seemed to meet her with a big "meh" at best. Certainly Priest would've written the hell out of it, but leaning on Tanya as one half of your hook seems pretty questionable.
    Then again, we're in a thread for a character whose fan base isn't that large, even among comic book audiences and it isn't like they haven't paired Karen off with similarly niche characters before like Atlee.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-16-2019 at 02:33 AM.

  15. #300
    Incredible Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Then again, we're in a thread for a character whose fan base isn't that large, even among comic book audiences and it isn't like they haven't paired Karen off with similarly niche characters before like Atlee.
    fan base is large enough to rival supergirls, but ascended is right in today's market characters need to be attached to DC biggest and strongest IP's. Its what separates the power girls and vixens from the black Caney's and mera's.

    If power girl had much stronger connections to superman and nightwing she might have a solo right now a d she definitely wouldn't be in limbo. Hell midnighter got a solo because of dick a d we know how supergirl and Jon benefits from being close to clark.

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