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  1. #1621
    Astonishing Member WallyWestFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    That entire paragraph is just filled with weirdness, though. No one told Wally not to worry about his family when he realized they existed -- the only person who knows is Barry at this point (Iris' memories are still a blur). The entire concept of this was that people were trying to help Wally and Wally destroyed it all, cascading into him killing a bunch of people, then doing a bunch of intentional crimes to cover it up. If he's putting himself in Wally, what is he getting there? He made Wally suicidal, he made Wally "accidentally" responsible for the deaths of innocents, he had Wally frame innocent people for horrendous crimes so he could go free, he had Wally destroy the sanctity of all these peoples' lives because of his own insecurities, he turned Wally into a walking bomb that was one bad day away from mass killing, he took any good thing Wally embodied and said that that was all garbage and false and none of that mattered -- these aren't just the typical consequences of losing control for a moment or making a mistake. If this is Tom King putting himself on the page then someone really, really needs to talk to him about this.

    My guess is, if King is putting himself into Wally, Wally is not going to get a happy ending because that's probably not what King wants for himself if all of this is birthed out of how he views himself. There's a lot of self hatred in Wally's dialogue that never existed before.

    Maybe it's all a giant ruse, none of it's true, and we get to walk back on this shit show. But then I don't get why King has said the things he has said in this interview.
    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    The actual problem here is that Wally was the wrong character for it.

    Period.

    King says that Wally hasn't been in a successful run in forever, well: that's because he was editorially sabotaged. His book wasn't cancelled due to sales, Barry book never sold better than Wally's did, and he couldn't have a successful run for the very simple fact that editorial forbid creatives from using him under any circumstances.

    There was never nothing wrong with the character, he was sabotaged.

    And King may think that this story (that he wrote first, and then squeezed Wally into by mandate) may bring some attention back to the character, and that is really cute, but it's also waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fucking naive for someone who used to be at CIA.

    Editorial telling him to use Wally for this was part of that sabotage, not an end to it.
    Very good points and well said.

    This was just Didi's magnum opus in a long series of let's bury Wally so he never comes back ever. And King was just the hero destroying writer to do it.
    My name is Wally West. I"m the fastest man alive. I"m the Flash.

    Favorite Heroes - 1-Flash/Wally West, 2-Superman, 3-Green Lantern/Hal Jordan, 4-Nightwing, 5-Hawkman, 6-Firestorm, 7-Supergirl/Linda Danvers, 8-Zatanna, 9-Robin/Tim Drake.

    Currently Reading: Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner era), Justice League of America (Silver age era), Huntress ('89 series)

  2. #1622
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It's like with Identity Crisis.

    I see people praising it for making the DCU more "complex" or "serious" ignoring all the obvious story and characterization issues on-top of all the grimdark violence.
    EXACTLY!!! Identity Crisis is what I blame for current DC, all the trademarks for how things are were on full display then and there. Complex and serious ideas are cool if done well great, if not then boo! Storytelling isn't like gift giving the thought isn't what counts.

    Speaking of the grimdark violence and still keeping it in the realm of our boy Wally. This panel will never not be funny to me. Like what? How? Why? Deathstroke stands still most of the fight, when Deathstroke fought the Titans he constantly had to be moving and still got knocked around pretty bad.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  3. #1623
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    I would say this about pretty much every Titan minus Cyborg. They have all been actively sabotaged for years now and the go to answer is that they haven't been relevant in years or whatever the main mantra that is being spewed out by "fans" or from people at DC.
    They have, yes, but not like Wally.

    I'm not talking about not being used, about slight demotions or whatnot.

    In "recent" years, there are 2 characters which DC Editorial threw under ever possible Bus, and those are Wally West and Cass Cain. Those 2 have gone trough unbelievable mis-characterization (for the worst), bastardized versions being called the officials, years of editorially mandated limbo, completely stripping of their position inside the DCU - more than once for each - and open mockery from more than one executive.

    Coincidentally, those are the two characters that pose(d) some threat to editorial favorites.

    Poor Dick comes at a distant number 3.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  4. #1624
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    They have, yes, but not like Wally.

    I'm not talking about not being used, about slight demotions or whatnot.

    In "recent" years, there are 2 characters which DC Editorial threw under ever possible Bus, and those are Wally West and Cass Cain. Those 2 have gone trough unbelievable mis-characterization (for the worst), bastardized versions being called the officials, years of editorially mandated limbo, completely stripping of their position inside the DCU - more than once for each - and open mockery from more than one executive.

    Coincidentally, those are the two characters that pose(d) some threat to editorial favorites.

    Poor Dick comes at a distant number 3.
    It's not a contest of who DC mistreats the most. The point is that DC has done it for a long time and keeps doing it to these characters. It's wrong and needs correcting in some form or another.

    Donna got s*** on pretty hard as well. Again plus with Leviathan coming up I think she's gonna be taken for a ride like Wally has.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  5. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    They have, yes, but not like Wally.

    I'm not talking about not being used, about slight demotions or whatnot.

    In "recent" years, there are 2 characters which DC Editorial threw under ever possible Bus, and those are Wally West and Cass Cain. Those 2 have gone trough unbelievable mis-characterization (for the worst), bastardized versions being called the officials, years of editorially mandated limbo, completely stripping of their position inside the DCU - more than once for each - and open mockery from more than one executive.

    Coincidentally, those are the two characters that pose(d) some threat to editorial favorites.

    Poor Dick comes at a distant number 3.
    I love Wally but Donna takes the cake for editorial fuckery. Finch turned her into a horrible monster, murderer, and weapon in his run, too. Sure they've KIND OF retconned it (but not really) but they're about to do it again and she's also been similarly continuity fucked. I guess Wally lost more because he had more but Donna's always had it rough.

  6. #1626
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I love Wally but Donna takes the cake for editorial fuckery. Finch turned her into a horrible monster, murderer, and weapon in his run, too. Sure they've KIND OF retconned it (but not really) but they're about to do it again and she's also been similarly continuity fucked. I guess Wally lost more because he had more but Donna's always had it rough.
    Not even close.

    There haven't been a single moment since 2008 in which Wally is not either banned or being screwed.

    All Donn's got is some really bad writing. Wally, the top guys are actively trying to fuck with.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  7. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Not even close.

    There haven't been a single moment since 2008 in which Wally is not either banned or being screwed.

    All Donn's got is some really bad writing. Wally, the top guys are actively trying to fuck with.
    You can say the same for Donna. The best shake she ever got was in Titans at the same time as Wally, and even then during Titans she got screwed at just about the same time as Wally. Wally wasn't made into a murderous monster -- even his awful New 52 incarnation (that has since been retconned, I know) wasn't as bad as Donna's. No one treats Donna as anything more than a running continuity joke. Donna's got bad writing and an editorial that is intent on keeping her just as fucked up as Wally for all the same reasons.

    Donna never got a DC Universe Rebirth #1. Wally did. When Donna met up with Wonder Woman it was all pain and hatred and betrayal. That's why it's not even close. Flash War didn't have the best ending, but at least Wally was treated like he mattered in it. Same with Perfect Storm. Donna doesn't get that.

    And part of that is that Donna isn't as popular so there's no sales incentive to re-ingratiate her with WW, but still, she gets practically nothing and when she does get something it's an awful mess.

    No one whines more about Wally's woes than me, but even I don't think he has it worse than Donna.
    Last edited by Dred; 05-23-2019 at 10:14 PM.

  8. #1628
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    You can say the same for Donna. The best shake she ever got was in Titans at the same time as Wally, and even then during Titans she got screwed at just about the same time as Wally. Wally wasn't made into a murderous monster -- even his awful New 52 incarnation (that has since been retconned, I know) wasn't as bad as Donna's. No one treats Donna as anything more than a running continuity joke. Donna's got bad writing and an editorial that is intent on keeping her just as fucked up as Wally for all the same reasons.

    Donna never got a DC Universe Rebirth #1. Wally did. When Donna met up with Wonder Woman it was all pain and hatred and betrayal. That's why it's not even close. Flash War didn't have the best ending, but at least Wally was treated like he mattered in it. Same with Perfect Storm. Donna doesn't get that.

    And part of that is that Donna isn't as popular so there's no sales incentive to re-ingratiate her with WW, but still, she gets practically nothing and when she does get something it's an awful mess.

    No one whines more about Wally's woes than me, but even I don't think he has it worse than Donna.
    Go back to august 2011, and Donna was just fine, as herself, in the Justice League of all places. You know where Wally was? Editorially mandated out of all books for at least 3 years with Dan Didio mocking his fans at every convention. Donna wasn't turned into a racist stereotype, wasn't requested by a lot of writers who got told "no", wasn't at the center of some editorial tug-o-war, wasn't given a pacemaker that invalidated her career, hasn't got half of her most iconic traits stolen and incorporated to her predecessor, her fans weren't openly antagonized, and she wasn't mandated to be the main character in the crap event that is HiC.

    Yes, Donna got a crappy deal in this continuity. But that's it.

    Comparing her situation now to what Cass has been trough, or to what Wally is still going trough - seriously, the "let's fuck Wally over fest" has lasted more than Hal Jordan's at this point - is just not accurate.

    It's not even in the same level.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  9. #1629
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    King seems to have conveniently omitted any mention about the "mass shooting" aspect of the story which was what the story was originally going to cover or maybe he didn't want to offend veterans with PTSD by suggesting that Wallys "fall" was designed to reflect their experience. they sacrifice everything in some cases even their families and everyone expects them to bear it up like troopers when they feel lost and broken inside and with no proper treatment coming the problems are only exacerbated till it leads to such incidents. that's what he seems to be getting at in the interview.

  10. #1630
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    King seems to have conveniently omitted any mention about the "mass shooting" aspect of the story which was what the story was originally going to cover or maybe he didn't want to offend veterans with PTSD by suggesting that Wallys "fall" was designed to reflect their experience. they sacrifice everything in some cases even their families and everyone expects them to bear it up like troopers when they feel lost and broken inside and with no proper treatment coming the problems are only exacerbated till it leads to such incidents. that's what he seems to be getting at in the interview.
    And that's great.
    But for **** sake, Wally West is NOT the character to tell that tale.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
    I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

  11. #1631
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    King seems to have conveniently omitted any mention about the "mass shooting" aspect of the story which was what the story was originally going to cover or maybe he didn't want to offend veterans with PTSD by suggesting that Wallys "fall" was designed to reflect their experience. they sacrifice everything in some cases even their families and everyone expects them to bear it up like troopers when they feel lost and broken inside and with no proper treatment coming the problems are only exacerbated till it leads to such incidents. that's what he seems to be getting at in the interview.
    This sounds like it should be a Vigilante or Punisher story. Maybe Captain America.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  12. #1632
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    And that's great.
    But for **** sake, Wally West is NOT the character to tell that tale.
    and I completely agree.

  13. #1633
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Yeah, King likening Wally's situation to him coming back from the "war" is very, very fucking weird to me.
    The dude is a one trick pony.
    AKA FlashFreak
    Favorite Characters:
    DC: The Flash (Jay & Wally), The Atom (Ray Palmer) , Jack Knight, Stargirl, & Shazam!.
    MARVEL: Daredevil, Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Iron Fist, Doctor Strange, Ant-Man (Scott Lang), & Iron Man.

    Current Pulls: Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Venom, Immortal Hulk, Shazam,Guardians of The Galaxy, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, & Spider-Man Life Story.

  14. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    I would say this about pretty much every Titan minus Cyborg. They have all been actively sabotaged for years now and the go to answer is that they haven't been relevant in years or whatever the main mantra that is being spewed out by "fans" or from people at DC.
    Cyborg has been sabotaged too, until JLO writers refused to give him a proper supporting cast(he has ties to the Titans, why wouldn't you use some of them as his supporting cast?),rogue gallery(stop making all of these awful tech villain OCs) and retreating the whole 'man or monster debate(all of the popular versions of Cyborg overcame that issue quickly,why won't DC get the mesage?)

  15. #1635
    Helping the Helpless Denirac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    The dude is a one trick pony.
    Whenever Tom King writes something his Justification is always “WHEN I WAS IN THE CIA”

    Infact I just made up a Meme for it:
    FC156319-16B7-4405-AD1F-215B6FD37B1E.jpg
    Last edited by Denirac; 05-24-2019 at 04:08 AM.
    Wally West deserved better than Heroes in Crisis

    Pull List:

    DC: JUSTICE LEAGUE, JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK, JUSTICE LEAGUE ODYSSEY, ACTION COMICS, BATMAN WHO LAUGHS

    MARVEL: AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, VENOM, WEB OF VENOM, UNCANNY X-MEN, DAREDEVIL, WOLVERINE: INFINITY WATCH, FANTASTIC FOUR

    BOOM STUDIOS: BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER, ANGEL

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