Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2019

[Dred]

I mean, I think that line was Wally just having fun with a reference to Dick and figuring out his new dynamic with Barry. Barry's line I think sumps up Johns' stance on it (that they're equals).

I think it's entirely possible Johns would have tried to walk back on some Flash Rebirth elements (not the dead mom/imprisoned dad aspect, since he seems so gung-ho about it) if only because he doesn't seem to view it as fondly as his other stories.

Kyle could definitely have had it a lot worse then he got after GL: Rebirth.

Yeah man, and Wally could technically have it worse than he does now but that doesn't really add anything to the conversation. The exact point I was making was that Johns, when he described his plans, had no intention of treating Wally as an equal because that was never the goal. Wally was never, ever considered Barry's equal the second Barry came back to life. Not by the writers, not by the company, and nowadays not even by the fans.

[Frontier]

Yeah man, and Wally could technically have it worse than he does now but that doesn't really add anything to the conversation. The exact point I was making was that Johns, when he described his plans, had no intention of treating Wally as an equal because that was never the goal. Wally was never, ever considered Barry's equal the second Barry came back to life. Not by the writers, not by the company, and nowadays not even by the fans.

I think it would have depended on how they utilized Wally. In practice I think, despite the comparison, he would've gotten a more prominent place then Kyle did post-Rebirth.

[Dred]

That's not equal in any way, shape, or form. And it never was going to be. The plan was explicitly to make Barry the main Flash and Wally returned to being derivative of Barry. Literally nothing anyone has said, shown, or created in the process implies anything else. Even Johns at his most obsequious to the fans merely said Wally would "continue to kick ass" through lying teeth.

[Godlike13]

Im not sure that John's stance was that they were going to be equals. I think Johns knew bringing Barry coming back was about more then just comics. But i also think Johns didn't want it to necessarily matter if they were going to be equals. Envisioning a situation where Barry might get more, but Wally would still get his. Like Batman and Nightwing.
Unfortunately though there are others who see Wally and Dick as threats. And so things became a battle and they struggle to get even C-list level support. Cause that's how they hedge things with them. Like this upcoming mini. Wally became one of their most talked about characters in the industry after HiC. So trying to do something with him after that is a no-brainer, a we start to look bad if we don't do something situation, but they still don't want things to get too hot so they balance it with lackluster protected creators that work fast and dirty.

[skyvolt2000]

[QUOTE=Dataweaver;4440242]Johns actually had a pretty good track record with respect to Wally, up until Flash Rebirth happened. And even there, I think the intent was to do with Flash what he did with Green Lantern: bring back the dead Silver Age hero, but without sidelining the newer hero who had replaced him.[/QUOTE]

John Stewart fans would GLADLY debate that with you.

Well they still find a way to spit in wally's face(man DC hates him).

I am sure Static fans have a bigger gripe with Virgil screaming for a girlfriend for an entire episode.

I don't think it necessarily has to infringe on Barry's "star status." It just depends how you handle it.

Wally is viewed as a threat like so many OTHERS who have been screwed over.

Under BETTER management you would be correct.

Peter Parker is NOT having this issue. He's top Dog and the others are not settling for crumbs.

If we are about PROFIT wouldn't a well done Wally & Bart in solos or minis HELP the franchise than hurt it?

[BohemiaDrinker]

I mean, I think that line was Wally just having fun with a reference to Dick and figuring out his new dynamic with Barry. Barry's line I think sumps up Johns' stance on it (that they're equals).

Yeah, no. in one line of dialogue he made Wally look at himself as the inferior one and showed to Wally fandom that "hey, Wally fans, look how cool Barry is! He acknowledges Wally!"

That's Johns comics in a nutshell: unpopular moves get a seal of approval by popular characters (see, Hal Jordan talking about Wally) and characters that he want to validate have lines that reflect the fandom. When that doesn't work, those lines are then. repeated by Superboy-Prime.

I think it's entirely possible Johns would have tried to walk back on some Flash Rebirth elements (not the dead mom/imprisoned dad aspect, since he seems so gung-ho about it)

Have you read the pitch for Flash Rebirth?

if only because he doesn't seem to view it as fondly as his other stories.

Since it's the very worst thing he's ever written and an overall piece of garbage, I think he is right on that one,

[godisawesome]

The difference between the Barry/Wally situation and the Hal/Kylo situation is that, to at least some extent, it’s very easy to argue that Wally was a more successful Flash during the prime of his run, which contributed more to the mythos in a way that evolved it from Barry’s time, and that Wally was the more the modern Flash than Barry was, while Kyle was always kind of seen as a bit more of an interloper and experiment that, while successful, was never as strong of a pillar as Hal + The GLC was.

I mean, Wally is still effectively the Post-Crisis Flash in a way that Kyle wasn’t because of Hal’s Post-Crisis career both before and after Emerald Twilight, Wally was the character for whom the Speed Force was introduced, and Wally was a strong enough pillar to build a multi-book Flash Family around (yes, it was mostly limited to just Flash and Impulse, but you still had Jay, Max, and Jesse hanging around just as much.) Wally’s book also hosted the seminal runs of the series in the modern age, including from Geoff Johns, the usual suspect for elevating a Silver Age character above a modern one with his runs.

So a Kyle-Wally comparison doesn’t really suffice for fans of the character or for the character’s potential. Unlike Kyle, it’s easy to argue that Wally was the evolution of the franchise instead of a repackaging. And it hasn’t helped that the Flash book with Barry has suffered from some inconsistency that hasn’t seemed to help launch it to heights comparable to Wally’s epochs.

But I don’t think that matters to editorial because they are focused on trying to create a “new reader friendly” status quo, and find Wally a danger to than because of him being not just a legacy character, but arguably the most successful legacy character. They believe that admitted progression of time is the enemy of new readers, particualrly if it positions a Silver Age stalwart they see as more marketable to new readers as an “elder statesman” of superheroics. Only Batman and the Batfamily have kinda managed to avoid this... but the recent changes to Nightwing and the post-Flashpoint mess of the Batgirls has shown even the dependable money maker isn’t safe from editorial trying to “fix” it.

So it’s not so much that editorial despises Wally, as much as they view the situation as something of a zero sum game. If you’re a respected writer with a great idea for a Wally story, they’re going to think that’s nice and all, but you need to reformat that for Barry. If you’re a major player in the comic industry with legendary clout because of how good your writing is and you want to write Wally, they’re going to wonder why on Earth you’d ever want to do that, and tell you to write Barry instead. And stuff like TV and movies returning to Barry only reinforces their opinions: they see it as iron clad proof that Barry is more marketable and should be pushed more, even if the honest answer is that the TV shows and movies are carried more by just good writing than by preconfigured character advantages.

And adding to the issue is that I don’t think DC editorial believes in building large stables of highly skilled writers at the moment - it’s easier and more “dependable” to have stables of artists you can deploy when you feel like it, one or two superstar writers, and a buffet of journeyman who will do what they’re told by editorial. And a true Flash Family line would need a stable of skilled writers all around.

[Frontier]

Yeah, no. in one line of dialogue he made Wally look at himself as the inferior one and showed to Wally fandom that "hey, Wally fans, look how cool Barry is! He acknowledges Wally!"

In context I don't think Wally was putting himself down in comparison to Barry, just thinking about what their new dynamic is. Considering how Wally views Dick I don't think he was looking at that as a lesser role, but Barry acknowledged that he's more then that. I get your point though.

I mean, is that wrong though? It's such a Barry thing to say and it isn't any less true.

Have you read the pitch for Flash Rebirth?

I think I have but I don't really remember much about it. Not that I care to read it again .

[BohemiaDrinker]

I mean, is that wrong though?

For Barry to say it? No.

For Wally, the guy who had been the Flash for as long as Barry and had been Kid Flash for the entirety of Barry's career before that, the guy who had seen ands interacted with several "number 1" Flashes from different time-periods? The guy, who, at that póint, was officially still the carrier of the "Flash" card in the JL?

Yes, it was wrong as **** for him to go to his uncle, who had half his experience and 25% of his abilities at most and go "I'm the Nightwing to your Batman". That line is disgusting.

I think I have but I don't really remember much about it. Not that I care to read it again .

Good for us, because I can't find it right now. But if you ever come across it, look forsomething like "and this will define that BARRY ALLEN DID MORE FOR THE FLASH LEGACY THAN WALLY OR BART EVER DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or some nonsense.

Yeah, Johns is no Didio, but let's not imagine that he'd done right by Wally back then, because he wouldn't.

[Dataweaver]

I'll just add that the whole point of “the Return of Barry Allen” (the Wally West story from the early 90s where an amnesiac Zoom shows up thinking he's Barry Allen and starts trampling over Barry's memory) — the story that introduced the Speed Force — was that Wally needed to get over an inferiority complex of sorts that he had about Barry: he was afraid that if he went faster than Barry, it would somehow tarnish Barry's memory. He got over it, accessed the Speed Force directly for the first time ever, beat Zoom, and never again thought of himself as a second-rate Flash.

Until Flash Rebirth.

I still don't buy that Johns' intent was to diminish Wally. From what I've read of Johns' work, he prefers a DCU where everyone coexists and gets their chance to shine. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out that way.

[WallyWestFlash]

The difference between the Barry/Wally situation and the Hal/Kylo situation is that, to at least some extent, it’s very easy to argue that Wally was a more successful Flash during the prime of his run, which contributed more to the mythos in a way that evolved it from Barry’s time, and that Wally was the more the modern Flash than Barry was, while Kyle was always kind of seen as a bit more of an interloper and experiment that, while successful, was never as strong of a pillar as Hal + The GLC was.

I mean, Wally is still effectively the Post-Crisis Flash in a way that Kyle wasn’t because of Hal’s Post-Crisis career both before and after Emerald Twilight, Wally was the character for whom the Speed Force was introduced, and Wally was a strong enough pillar to build a multi-book Flash Family around (yes, it was mostly limited to just Flash and Impulse, but you still had Jay, Max, and Jesse hanging around just as much.) Wally’s book also hosted the seminal runs of the series in the modern age, including from Geoff Johns, the usual suspect for elevating a Silver Age character above a modern one with his runs.

So a Kyle-Wally comparison doesn’t really suffice for fans of the character or for the character’s potential. Unlike Kyle, it’s easy to argue that Wally was the evolution of the franchise instead of a repackaging. And it hasn’t helped that the Flash book with Barry has suffered from some inconsistency that hasn’t seemed to help launch it to heights comparable to Wally’s epochs.

But I don’t think that matters to editorial because they are focused on trying to create a “new reader friendly” status quo, and find Wally a danger to than because of him being not just a legacy character, but arguably the most successful legacy character. They believe that admitted progression of time is the enemy of new readers, particualrly if it positions a Silver Age stalwart they see as more marketable to new readers as an “elder statesman” of superheroics. Only Batman and the Batfamily have kinda managed to avoid this... but the recent changes to Nightwing and the post-Flashpoint mess of the Batgirls has shown even the dependable money maker isn’t safe from editorial trying to “fix” it.

So it’s not so much that editorial despises Wally, as much as they view the situation as something of a zero sum game. If you’re a respected writer with a great idea for a Wally story, they’re going to think that’s nice and all, but you need to reformat that for Barry. If you’re a major player in the comic industry with legendary clout because of how good your writing is and you want to write Wally, they’re going to wonder why on Earth you’d ever want to do that, and tell you to write Barry instead. And stuff like TV and movies returning to Barry only reinforces their opinions: they see it as iron clad proof that Barry is more marketable and should be pushed more, even if the honest answer is that the TV shows and movies are carried more by just good writing than by preconfigured character advantages.

And adding to the issue is that I don’t think DC editorial believes in building large stables of highly skilled writers at the moment - it’s easier and more “dependable” to have stables of artists you can deploy when you feel like it, one or two superstar writers, and a buffet of journeyman who will do what they’re told by editorial. And a true Flash Family line would need a stable of skilled writers all around.

Thumbs up on this post. Nice analysis.

[WallyWestFlash]

large.jpg

Classic Wally.

[deadman322]

so the other dayyyyyyyyyyyy.......

i was thinking, if wally's now in prison, would his identity now be public knowledge again?

[Sam]

so the other dayyyyyyyyyyyy.......

i was thinking, if wally's now in prison, would his identity now be public knowledge again?

Secret Justice League prison, sooooo...doesn't count I think.

[deadman322]

Secret Justice League prison, sooooo...doesn't count I think.

probably damians little prison cause the justice league don't care about that apparently.