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  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Sam, may I ask how old you are?

    I'm really not trying to be patronizing or a dick here, but I have been having this same conversation with a lot of younger people lately.
    31. May I ask the same question of you? Just curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I don't disagree with your point that Wally's behavior is far from the best option, but that time was a very, very different time. Going bak to the early nineties and 80's is, culturally, like looking at a cave-person, even when we look at ourselves. At the end of the day, sexualities that deviated from the enforced cis-hetero-monogamy model were not even really a talking point (except for the AIDS epidemic) and most regular folk had never thought more than 5 minutes about it, if at all.

    At the time, Wally had to "digest it", for lack of a better word. The reason he took five minutes to think about it is because he was forced to, unlike most other people had. And yes, the conclusion he arrived at should be the starting point of the conversation for today standards, but for the time it was progressive AF.

    We can look at the past with today-tinted glasses and judge past actions for today standards all we want, but the fact of the matter is that some of the most ardent racial activists of yore could look like racists by today standards, and that's true for everything elkse. All people can hope is to play the best with the cards handed to them, which back then Wally did.
    I get the context. I do. I've been saying that all along, which is why it's kind of frustrating when people keep saying, "No, no, Sam, you're not thinking about the context." Because I am thinking about the context. I was born in the context. I was raised in the context. I keep acknowledging the context, yet people keep bringing up the context like I haven't thought about it yet.

    Not a knock on you, by the way. Your post was polite, though a little patronizing (though I know you weren't trying to be). I'm just explaining my frustrations.

    I'm not saying that Wally is a bad person and that we shouldn't hold him up as a hero. I'm not saying that issue wasn't progressive at the time. I'm just saying we should acknowledge that Wally's actions in running was not cool. It isn't cool now and it wasn't cool then, regardless of context. The coming back is great, but it doesn't mean that there wasn't an error in how he behaved.

    You are right that our societal perception of race issues, gender issues, and LBGTQ issues have changed. But if the goal is equality. If the goal is for our society to treat everyone equally, then there is no sliding scale of morality on these issues. Far enough for now isn't a thing, and it isn't good enough.

    When I say Wally wasn't right in running, I'm not ignoring the context. I'm thinking about the context. But the context doesn't play a role in whether that was the right thing to do or not. Context doesn't free us from responsibility. We have to acknowledge these kinds of mistakes to move forward. Otherwise, the resulting message is that homophobia is okay in context, which it isn't.

    I'm not demanding that the issue be different, which I feel like some people might be thinking I am. All I want is the acknowledgement from us as a community that running away from someone because they are gay isn't the right thing to do, and even if you do go back later, it doesn't wash away that initial action. It just means you're on a better path forward. Wally fixed a mistake, but he still made a mistake.
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  2. #782
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    Good joke, by the by.

    You seem to be compartmentalizing the scenario, saying "Here, in this particular moment excised by itself, Wally was wrong." And then admitting that, right afterwards, Wally did the right thing but he should still be ashamed or acknowledged as worse of a person for the beginning of the scenario.

    What I see (and what maybe BD sees, though I do not wish to speak for them) is the entire scenario played out as Wally loving and accepting his friend, sexuality and all, even if society taught him otherwise. You take that last part, isolate the one part of the story that it takes place in, and blame Wally for it rather than the society that caused it that he very quickly bucked because he had to take time to think about why that was even the case.

    Let me put it this way. Your entire life you're taught that 2+2=5. Everyday the world insulates you from the truth and tells you this. Later on in life, after years of being subjected to this, your close friend tells you that 2+2=4 and has proof. You think the person who was indoctrinated is at fault for questioning this new information, and not the society that forced it on him? Even if they quickly admit to agreeing with the truth and doing away with their societal hangups? Because I don't. I think society has a lot of the blame here. I'd start blaming Wally if it took someone beating it into his stubborn head that being gay is okay, rather than him coming to the conclusion himself after thinking about it briefly. The blame is shared and Wally did well on his end of it. It becomes Wally's fault when, if presented with the rightful, moral alternative he ignores it and clutches his pearls and gives into societal pressure. That did not happen.
    Last edited by Dred; 03-26-2019 at 04:07 PM.

  3. #783

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    I don't know guys, I agree with Sam. Wally is far from a saint-like character and has made a ton of mistakes and this was a pretty big one. We are talking about him physically running away from a friend after finding out he was gay. Imagine if you told a friend of yours something personal and hard for you and they responded by running out of the room without saying anything. That's pretty bad. Obviously that's not where the story ends but we're talking about his innitial reaction. In fact, I'm pretty sure the entire point of the story is that Wally knew what he did was wrong and realised it.

    I love Wally. He's my favourite DC character but he's far from perfect. I think you guys are putting him on a bit of a pedestal. I'm not really sure why.

    Do I think Wally today is homophobic? No. But it's obviously a prejudice that he had to work on and his reaction at the time speaks for itself.

  4. #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper View Post
    I don't know guys, I agree with Sam. Wally is far from a saint-like character and has made a ton of mistakes and this was a pretty big one. We are talking about him physically running away from a friend after finding out he was gay. Imagine if you told a friend of yours something personal and hard for you and they responded by running out of the room without saying anything. That's pretty bad. Obviously that's not where the story ends but we're talking about his innitial reaction. In fact, I'm pretty sure the entire point of the story is that Wally knew what he did was wrong and realised it.

    I love Wally. He's my favourite DC character but he's far from perfect. I think you guys are putting him on a bit of a pedestal. I'm not really sure why.

    Do I think Wally today is homophobic? No. But it's obviously a prejudice that he had to work on and his reaction at the time speaks for itself.
    There are plenty of times you can call Wally out for being ungraceful, a hypcorite, mean spirited, and sometimes even downright cruel. The story of him accepting Hartley after Hartley came out to him ought not to be one of them. I don't think we should encourage overcritical sniping of gay positive stories and characters in the first place, especially when they're really good stories.

  5. #785

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    There are plenty of times you can call Wally out for being ungraceful, a hypcorite, mean spirited, and sometimes even downright cruel. The story of him accepting Hartley after Hartley came out to him ought not to be one of them. I don't think we should encourage overcritical sniping of gay positive stories and characters in the first place, especially when they're really good stories.
    Okay but no one is saying that it isn't ultimately a positive or good story. The fact is that Wally didn't simply accept Hartley at first. He ran away from his friend when his friend was having a moment of vulnerability. I think it's great that Wally came back, but the entire point is that he responded in a pretty horrible way innitially. I doubt Messner-Loebs meant to showcase how awesome Wally was for running away.

  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Exactly. I can only assume that Sam is young and idealistic and is looking at the both the world we live in, and the world these comic book characters live in, as how he thinks they should be and is acting out of the belief that any depiction of those worlds that doesn't meet that impossibly high standard of 'how it should be' as unacceptable. The problem is, that's a naive at best, and completely unrealistic at worst, way to look at things. Refusing to accept the reality that mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ people and issues came not all once and without problems but instead happened in fits and starts, with both moves forward and backwards, and with many obstacles to overcome, and that it took time (as in not just years, but decades even, if not in fact centuries), does a disservice to both the LGBTQ community and those in the heterosexual community who consider themselves allies, but particularly to those who lived and died during those times. Because that ideal world? Still doesn't exist.
    Okay, this is actually pretty insulting. Don't put words in my mouth and don't pretend you know what I'm thinking. You don't know a thing about me, so don't pretend like you do. Talk to me and I might be able to help you understand my perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    When Hartley came out to Wally, and Wally reacted initially with discomfort, but by issue's end had gotten over that discomfort and accepted Hartley for who he was, way back in the early 90's? That was probably the earliest that story could have been told. It couldn't have been told in the 60's, 70's, and certainly not the '80's, when not only rampant homophobia but the fear and hysteria created by the emerging AIDS crisis would have made it all but impossible to tell such a story without an overwhelmingly negative backlash from not just comics fandom but the general population. That is, if both the Comics Code Authority and editorial in general allowed such a story to ever see the light of day to start with. Also, Hartley was a supporting cast member. Not a lead character, nor a prominent or favorite member of a big team. Yeah, Extrano of the New Guardians had appeared in the late 80's, but the New Guardians book was considered terrible in general, and Extrano himself such a compendium of terrible cliches and stereotypes about gay men, that even actual living and breathing gay comics readers wanted to forget about him. It took a few years more for an actual mainstream super-hero character being published by one of the Big Two, Northstar of Marvel's Alpha Flight, to be allowed to come out and openly declare what had been thinly veiled subtext anyway, and even then Marvel had what some cynically called the "luxury" of the fact that Northstar was a character the non-comics-reading general public had never really heard of.
    Yes, I am actually aware of the history of LBGT characters in comics. It has absolutely no bearing on my point, but feel free to continue to insinuate like I can't possibly know what I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    I was a teenager during the 80's (86-90 being my high school years). I'm a straight male and would like to consider myself an ally of the LGBTQ community. And I remember pop culture and culture in general back during that decade, as being oppressive to both LBGTQ people and straight people who were considered to be not sufficiently conforming to heteronormative standards of what was considered "traditional" masculinity or femininity. Those standards may have varied across the country, from state to state and town to town, and certainly between urban/metropolitan areas and smaller, even more rural areas. But being a heterosexual who other heterosexuals suspected or even flat out accused of being secretly gay, back then, because somebody thought you weren't ticking off enough boxes to "qualify" as being traditionally masculine or feminine, and therefore were either trying to out you as a socially undesirable person or else try force you to more closely conform to their ideas of what a "real" man or "real" woman was? Probably not remotely bad as what real gay and lesbian people faced, but still not exactly pleasant experience, especially if you were a teenager, either.
    Yes, homophobia sucks for everyone. I'm sorry people treated you badly. But look, I know you acknowledge that your experience probably didn't compare to what actually LGBTQ people face, but you are still comparing your experience irregardless. I don't think you mean for that to come of the way it does, but you don't know my experience. It's not like yours, so please don't pretend the two can be compared.

    And, for the record, media is still oppressive those outside the "traditional" gender and sexuality spectrum. It's better, but it's still has a long way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    In an ideal world, which we still don't live in and certainly didn't live in during previous decades, coming out wouldn't and shouldn't be a process fraught with emotional and social peril. Nor would being LBGTQ and trying to live a happy, healthy, and safe life, and nor would being a heterosexual who accepts LGBTQ people and supports their efforts to live happily, healthily, safely, and as accepted members of society. Yes, great strides have been made in gaining mainstream acceptance, sometimes more and in a shorter amount of time than many of us thought possible...but it's still not that ideal world, not yet. There are strides that still need to be made. There are still plenty of people trying not only to stop those strides, but to undo those that have been made already. That's why it's important not just to have a vision of how we think things should be and try to move towards that, but to remember when things weren't as good as they are even now...and to remember the efforts that were made to get to this point and accept their importance, not just dismiss them out of hand because somebody who didn't live through them thinks those efforts weren't good enough or did enough.
    Okay, please don't argue what I should be grateful for or what I should accept. You don't get to decide that. You really don't.

    Once again, I'm not dismissing Wally's reaction. But people need to understand that running away because someone is gay, as an action, is not okay. You can't hide that in context. Wally's human. He makes mistakes and he made one. Even the storyline of the issue acknowledges that by having him accept Hartley as his friend after all. What I don't understand is why it is so hard for people to admit Wally did the wrong thing before he did the decent thing. It happens in stories all the time, but it seems hard for some people to even acknowledge that the action of running from Piper was not okay.
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  7. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper View Post
    Okay but no one is saying that it isn't ultimately a positive or good story. The fact is that Wally didn't simply accept Hartley at first. He ran away from his friend when his friend was having a moment of vulnerability. I think it's great that Wally came back, but the entire point is that he responded in a pretty horrible way innitially. I doubt Messner-Loebs meant to showcase how awesome Wally was for running away.
    Thank you.
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  8. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by reis9999 View Post
    And also, identity crisis writer and the people involved with "armageddon 2001" are advising King to not change the outcome of the history because of leaks and people's opinion.
    For me this is one of the biggest indicatives of wally being the murder.
    Where did you hear/ read this?
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  9. #789
    Astonishing Member WallyWestFlash's Avatar
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    I don't like to acknowledge King's trash fire but this preview page definitely confirms that red gloved hand is Wally's. For anyone who is interested. (With King's annoying poems) And that he is alive, and most likely the killer.

    HIC_07_300_Page_1.jpg
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    Favorite Heroes - 1-Flash/Wally West, 2-Superman, 3-Green Lantern/Hal Jordan, 4-Nightwing, 5-Hawkman, 6-Firestorm, 7-Supergirl/Linda Danvers, 8-Zatanna, 9-Robin/Tim Drake.

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  10. #790
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    Is he retconning their marriage now to include a non-sequitur poem? Because we saw their marriage in Wally's comics and that sure wasn't part of it.

  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallyWestFlash View Post
    I don't like to acknowledge King's trash fire but this preview page definitely confirms that red gloved hand is Wally's. For anyone who is interested. (With King's annoying poems) And that he is alive, and most likely the killer.

    HIC_07_300_Page_1.jpg
    Where is Donna and Garth

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Where is Donna and Garth
    Donna is with the Titans and it's been a while since Garth appeared.

  13. #793
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    31. May I ask the same question of you? Just curious.
    Not that older than you, 38.

    Only difference between us is that I actually caught the 80's hell, I guess.

    Not a knock on you, by the way. Your post was polite, though a little patronizing (though I know you weren't trying to be). I'm just explaining my frustrations.
    Second language, man. Communication is easy, nuance, a lot of the time, not so much. Sorry.

    You are right that our societal perception of race issues, gender issues, and LBGTQ issues have changed. But if the goal is equality. If the goal is for our society to treat everyone equally, then there is no sliding scale of morality on these issues. Far enough for now isn't a thing, and it isn't good enough.
    I get that.

    But I also think that steps on the right direction have to be appreciated. Doing the right thing may be easier or harder depending on how much wrong there is around you.

    And even if I agree that there should be no sliding scale of morality, there should be a sliding scale of tolerance for mistakes and world views. And I say that because I'm pretty sure most of us will look like cave-people for the people of thirty years from now. Yet we're all (well, we on this thread at least) trying the best we can.

    When I say Wally wasn't right in running, I'm not ignoring the context. I'm thinking about the context. But the context doesn't play a role in whether that was the right thing to do or not. Context doesn't free us from responsibility. We have to acknowledge these kinds of mistakes to move forward. Otherwise, the resulting message is that homophobia is okay in context, which it isn't.
    Okay, but (And I'll leave this conversation after this reply, because it'll become a more complex debate than the thread asks, and I donw't want to further hijack it): like any other prejudice that's socially enforced, we can have both overt and internalized homophobia, and I'd say it's fair to say we all have some internalized prejudice at some point in our lives. In a point where overt homophobia, and LGBTPhobia in general, was the norm, maybe more good was achieved from showing a character (in this case, Wally), actually looking inward, confronting this and coming trough the other side a better person, or at least in the right direction.

    What I think people are objecting to your point, is that it may sound as "it was wrong, and that's it", while some times there's no possible "right". In the end, if Wally was just accepting and ok with it from the get go, that story might have carried way less weight (while today. the reverse is true).

    And I agree with you larger point about acknowledging past mistakes to move forward.
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  14. #794
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    Y'all ready to see how they bring Wally down even further? I should be able to read the book when it hits midnight est i'll give a wallly centric overview in like less than 2 hours.

  15. #795
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkcrusade25 View Post
    Y'all ready to see how they bring Wally down even further? I should be able to read the book when it hits midnight est i'll give a wallly centric overview in like less than 2 hours.
    Pls post spoilers (in proper tags, for those who mind)

    DM me if you feel like it.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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