Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2019

[Godlike13]

We don’t know what Wally’s reason was for creating the crime scene he did, but he does seem to have one and it doesn’t seem like it was done with insidious intent. Dude just killed everyone, tapering with the scene seems tame by comparison. Of course it’s not in character, its not suppose to be in character. He’s had a mental breakdown and is acting irrational. Now not like the mental breakdown all you want, which is completely fair, but you don’t have mental breakdown and act in character. The entire point is he’s not in his right mind. To me it seems that he has deluded himself with some idea that he can fix things, which is not actually that crazy given their world, rather then accept what he did. Cause how could he accept that. I mean Barry couldn’t accept his mom dying and rewrote the Universe.

[byrd156]

We don’t know what Wally’s reason was for creating the crime scene he did, but he does seem to have one and it doesn’t seem like it was done with insidious intent. Dude just killed everyone, tapering with the scene seems tame by comparison. Of course it’s not in character, its not suppose to be in character. He’s had a mental breakdown and is acting irrational. To me it seems that he has deluded himself with some idea that he can fix things, which is not actually that crazy given their world, rather then accept what he did. Cause how could he accept that. I mean Barry couldn’t accept his mom dying and rewrote the Universe.

It's all Wally's fault! I mean it's Barry's fault for making Wally go crazy! I mean it's Reverse Flash's fault for making Barry create Flashpoint! I mean it's Dr. Manhattan's fault for doing all this in the first place! I mean it's the terrible leadership and direction of the heads of DC that started all this. I think I got it right that time.

[Godlike13]

Part of it is on the Trinity thinking they can just program a computer to heal everyones mental well being with out there being flaws, especially when it’s dealing with some of the most powerful people in the universe. The last thing Wally needed was a computer telling him he’s not alone. All Wally needed was someone to show him he wasn’t alone, yet Sanctuary apparently couldn’t do that. A support group seems like an obvious thing that should be part of the Sanctuary program, but I guess not.

[Dred]

Wally is a hero. This was all set off by him doing something awful in the first place. He's the bad guy in this scenario and trying to justify it with "lol he's crazy" isn't a justification. All of Batman's villains are crazy. They're still villains.

What Wally needs is Manhattan to be zapping his brain with his godly power, erasing peoples' memories, controlling actions and what not. Anything less means he's just another villain.

The schedule change could also just be as simple as them wanting Dclock to overshadow the bad press HiC is getting. Or vice versa, who knows. Regardless, the Wally well is currently poisoned.

[Godlike13]

Mental health isn’t quite that black and white.

[Dred]

Mental health isn’t quite that black and white.

It frequently is in Superhero comics. Unless your preferred interpretation of Batman is as a serial assaulter of those with mental health problems. Which a lot of people say but the conceit of comics is often that we brush that grayness aside for the sake of the story.

Also, to say Wally's acts are those of someone who had a breakdown seems to ignore his entire personal monologue about how he meticulously and ingeniously tricked the greatest minds in the world. When's the last time you had a mental breakdown that let you hack a super sophisticated AI by sheer brute force and outsmart the greatest minds in the world? Usually people breakdown when they breakdown, not become hyper competent.

He's crazy, great. What does that even matter at this point? Now we can never, ever, ever trust Wally as a hero again because he could always just snap and explode and kill everyone around him. He could always just be "weak" for a moment and unleash that hyper psychotic mastermind side of him that let's him outsmart Batman. He could have a mental breakdown and steal some time travel tech (or just time travel regularly when he gets THAT power back) and literally destroy the entire universe as we know it, Barry Allen style.

Throwing the word "mental health" at the situation does not absolve it. It does not make the character less toxic. It does not fix any of the myriad problems this story creates for Wally. Whatever his vain fucking idea is to "make up" for killing a bunch of people after going psycho doesn't change anything about what the story establishes for him. He could solve literally every single problem in the universe during his little jaunt (he's obviously not, he's not even going to solve anything significant because that would change the status quo) and he is still a toxic character because of what this story made him do.

He's a "hero" who can no longer be trusted to be heroic. He's a "hero" who has done unabashedly villainous things. He's a hero who, whenever you talk about him, will have a giant fucking asterisk next to his name indicating he's a danger to him and people who are trying to help him. He's no longer a hero.

[Godlike13]

That’s not true. A mental breakdown doesn’t mean one becomes stupid. It actually quite remarkable what a person can do during and after a mental breakdown, motivated by delusions that seem utterly crazy to others but completely sane to them.

And that battle after, that doubt from others and even themselves of whether they can ever truly be trusted again, is exactly what people who suffer from mental health issues go through.

Also your last paragraph there, you say that like it’s all bad, but to me that actually sounds like a potentially interesting character dilemma and challenge ripe for exploration. A hero that can’t be trusted, not even by himself. A hero that no matter what he does will have to face what he’s done and his own mental fragility. I’m sorry, but I don’t hate this idea. But Hank Pym is one of my favorite characters. That being said, I don’t know if Wally is the right character for it. I get it’s a hard sell. While I can see potential, and personally think Wally was in need of something out of the box, I’m not necessarily convinced this was the right direction for Wally.

[Dred]

That’s not true. A mental breakdown doesn’t mean one becomes stupid. It actually quite remarkable what a person can do during and after a mental breakdown, motivated by delusions that seem utterly crazy to others but completely sane to them.

And that battle after, that doubt from others and even themselves of whether they can ever truly be trusted again, is exactly what people who suffer from mental health issues go through.

Also your last paragraph there, you say that like it’s all bad, but to me that actually sounds like a potentially interesting character dilemma and challenge ripe for exploration. A hero that can’t be trusted, not even by himself. A hero that no matter what he does will have to face what he’s done and his own mental fragility. I’m sorry, but I don’t hate this idea. But Hank Pym is one of my favorite characters. That being said, I don’t know if Wally is the right character for it. I get it’s a hard sell. While I can see potential, and personally think Wally was in need of something out of the box, I’m not necessarily convinced this was the right direction for Wally.

A mental breakdown allowed him to hack a super sophisticated AI. I'm not talking about like, having a breakdown but still maintaining your intelligence. He became psychotically methodically ingenious. That's not a breakdown. Wally could barely work a VCR. It's right out of a Batman villain origin story. Their craziness somehow instilled some twisted form of increased intelligence in their madness. Speed Force Scarecrow over here.

But hey, you know what this comic does? It illustrates someone with mental health issues becoming a violent madman. It depicts Wally West as a horrid criminal. Someone who desecrates corpses. Frames other people, potentially killing and hurting them more, with little regard for what happens to them. It treats them as monsters who do monstrous things and need to be stopped. It depicts the rest of them as victims of violence from another mental health patient who could not control himself when in reality it's the exact opposite. All the most absolutely unhealthy ways and stereotypes to throw onto people suffering from mental health issues. That they'll snap at any minute, that they need to be contained, that they can't be trusted, that if you don't keep an eye on them they'll do something horrible and there's nothing they can do to stop it. And you want that to be central to his character.

Sounds like a fucking Batman villain to me.

I'm sure glad you want a story about someone who isn't Wally West. This might not be the best place to talk about that though. Wally didn't need anything "out of the box" because Wally is one of the best comic characters of all time. He wasn't broken and in need of fixing. He is now. But sure, please, compare Wally West to the character who got branded as a wife beater forever. Great parallel.

All Wally needed was a company that didn't hate him.

I seriously just want to juxtapose your two statements here:

Mental health isn’t quite that black and white.

A hero that can’t be trusted, not even by himself. A hero that no matter what he does will have to face what he’s done and his own mental fragility.

That last statement is actually unbelievably toxic. It is exactly what I'm talking about. It paints people with these problems horribly, and it paints Wally horribly. It's why this comic is such an absolute travesty on ALL fronts besides the pictures.

[byrd156]

God I hate the word toxic. And problematic and all those other words that are a part of this ongoing cancel culture that's been going on. So far modern comics have been pretty bad at talking about mental health so let's just try doing something else for a bit. Wouldn't that be great?

[Dred]

I think this is an appropriate use of the word. I could use some synonyms if you like. Cancerous, malignant, damaging, negatively stereotyped, whatever.

[byrd156]

I think this is an appropriate use of the word. I could use some synonyms if you like. Cancerous, malignant, damaging, negatively stereotyped, whatever.

I mean you're right. I'm just tired of hearing the word. I hear it at least 10 times a day about the dumbest of things.

[Godlike13]

Thats a very real battle people with mental health issues face. People look at them differently, they look at themselves differently, having to question the very thoughts in their own head. It sucks. But it doesn’t make them horrible, irredeemably people. Wally is not a villain. He’s broken. He didn’t turn into a violet mad man. He exploded. Faced with not just his, but countless others trauma, he literally exploded. And now faced with the tragedy of what he has unintentionally has done, his mind is trying rationalize it and ‘fix’ it. But the poor man is not in his right mind after what happened and has most likely deluded himself with this idea that he can fix it. As horrible as multilating bodies and framing people is, if say he thinks he can rewrite the universe and ‘fix’ everything what will it matter. And why would he think he can’t do this when his mentor did exactly that. Which is what took his family from him in the first place.

Now while again, this would not be the first direction I went with Wally. Even though I do see story potential, I’m still not convinced its going to works with Wally. Still though, ya I’m sorry but I do think they needed to experiment with Wally and try new things now. Wally is great, but since they brought him back with Rebirth he has been just a pointless charactericture of his former self, trying to fit in a world that didn’t really want to make any room for him.

[Dred]

Thats a very real battle people with mental health issues face. People look at them differently, they look at themselves differently, having to question the very thoughts in their own head. It sucks. But it doesn’t make them horrible, irredeemably people. Wally is not a villain. He’s broken. He didn’t turn into a violet mad man. He exploded. Faced with not just his, but countless others trauma, he literally exploded. And now faced with the tragedy of what he has unintentionally has done, his mind is trying rationalize it and ‘fix’ it. But the poor man is not in his right mind after what happened and has most likely deluded himself with this idea that he can fix it. As horrible as multilating bodies and framing people is, if say he thinks he can rewrite the universe and ‘fix’ everything what will it matter. And why would he think he can’t do this when his mentor did exactly that. Which is what took his family from him in the first place.

Now while again, this would not be the first direction I went with Wally. Even though I do see story potential, I’m still not convinced its going to works with Wally. Still though, ya I’m sorry but I do think they needed to experiment with Wally and try new things now. Wally is great, but since they brought him back with Rebirth he has been just a pointless charactericture of his former self, trying to fit in a world that didn’t really want to make any room for him.

This is not a look at how it is to live as a person with mental health issue suffering from the prejudice of others. This is the effecting and realization and enforcement of the prejudice. This is taking the prejudice and hate and fear and making it true.

What Wally did DOES make him a horrible, irredeemable person. What Wally is and what Wally has done is what we attribute to the most horrible psychopathic people, not people struggling with Survivor's guilt.

Also, let's not forget the reason he "exploded" (itself a complete load of BS made up on the spot) is because he used his powers to hack a super AI so he could invade the privacy of every other person there. He brought this on himself. Before anyone ever died Wally was already doing supervillain nonsense. And don't say oh well he just had a bad moment because it wasn't a bad moment. It was a thought out plan. He hacked a super computer through brute force. It would've taken him a relative billion freaking years to pull that off. That entire time was just one little breakdown, yeah, right. To have his "break" he has to sit there and knowingly experience and relive and watch every single confessional. Hours and hours of footage.

The poor man is not in his right mind. Yeah man, neither is Eobard Thawne. I don't see you making excuses for him.

Also, can we not just gloss over mutilating corpses, painting hateful messages in their blood, and then viciously and psychotically framing two innocent people for the murder of dozens and siccing the entire superhero community on them? Like what the **** happens if Jason Todd stumbles on Harley before Barbara Gordon? No one knows, because Wally didn't give a ****. He left two innocent people out to die with the stain of mass killings on their hands. And when he talks about it, he's not talking about it like some manic person who doesn't know what they're doing, some poor soul who's not in control. It's a a mad genius's psychotic superplan. The Riddler on brain steroids.

And please dear god spare me the "Well they were misusing Wally so they need to do something different!" What the hell kind of logic is that? They were misusing Wally so the only course is to ruin him so they can misuse him in a different way? What are you even talking about? They could just use Wally West as Wally West instead of as broken down horrible monster man who needs to get a bullet in his head before he explodes and kills a dozen people again.

The comic even has a section where it keeps talking about how stupid this all is. And that's all I can really dwell on. This is all a bunch of stupid bullshit and I can't believe anyone is justifying it.

Not to mention all of this is also having Wally commit fucking suicide. Exactly what I want in a character I'm so close to and so attached to. Lo be to any Wally fan who ever had suicidal thoughts watching your favorite hero FUCKING KILL HIMSELF. Not just that, but rationalize and fucking justify it all!

Sorry if that last line is a bit harsh but I've been holding onto it since that stupid fucking issue came out. This entire thing is so maddening to me.

[king81992]

Part of it is on the Trinity thinking they can just program a computer to heal everyones mental well being with out there being flaws, especially when it’s dealing with some of the most powerful people in the universe. The last thing Wally needed was a computer telling him he’s not alone. All Wally needed was someone to show him he wasn’t alone, yet Sanctuary apparently couldn’t do that. A support group seems like an obvious thing that should be part of the Sanctuary program, but I guess not.

The Trinity are responsible for this entire mess.They set up an off grid mental health clinic without having any professionals on site. There was also no supervision, we saw that most of the patients were abusing the DR and using it to relive their trauma or indulge in escapism.Sooner or later things were going to go wrong. My guess is that the Trinity will get off Scot free with all responsibility shifted on to Wally or Dr.Manhattan.

[king81992]

It frequently is in Superhero comics. Unless your preferred interpretation of Batman is as a serial assaulter of those with mental health problems. Which a lot of people say but the conceit of comics is often that we brush that grayness aside for the sake of the story.

Also, to say Wally's acts are those of someone who had a breakdown seems to ignore his entire personal monologue about how he meticulously and ingeniously tricked the greatest minds in the world. When's the last time you had a mental breakdown that let you hack a super sophisticated AI by sheer brute force and outsmart the greatest minds in the world? Usually people breakdown when they breakdown, not become hyper competent.

He's crazy, great. What does that even matter at this point? Now we can never, ever, ever trust Wally as a hero again because he could always just snap and explode and kill everyone around him. He could always just be "weak" for a moment and unleash that hyper psychotic mastermind side of him that let's him outsmart Batman. He could have a mental breakdown and steal some time travel tech (or just time travel regularly when he gets THAT power back) and literally destroy the entire universe as we know it, Barry Allen style.

Throwing the word "mental health" at the situation does not absolve it. It does not make the character less toxic. It does not fix any of the myriad problems this story creates for Wally. Whatever his vain fucking idea is to "make up" for killing a bunch of people after going psycho doesn't change anything about what the story establishes for him. He could solve literally every single problem in the universe during his little jaunt (he's obviously not, he's not even going to solve anything significant because that would change the status quo) and he is still a toxic character because of what this story made him do.

He's a "hero" who can no longer be trusted to be heroic. He's a "hero" who has done unabashedly villainous things. He's a hero who, whenever you talk about him, will have a giant fucking asterisk next to his name indicating he's a danger to him and people who are trying to help him. He's no longer a hero.

DC is probably going to retool Wally into an anti hero or anti villain after this(assuming that Doomsday Clock isn't a pseudo reboot that rectons everything).That being said, Wally should have never been put in a position where he had to be retooled into an anti hero or anti villain in the first place.