Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2019

[BohemiaDrinker]

Pardon me, but what is wrong with the current costume? Whatever the case maybe i would like a wally costume with the hair exposed. It's just something i like,aesthetically.

Lots of people do, specially with Wally and the red-hair thing, sadly.

But the suit was designed to be sidekicky. Booth specifically mentioned way back that this was the suit DC greenlit because they wanted more of a "Kid Flash" look. (And even then the color-scheme changed at 11th hour).

His other pitch was this:



Which I don't find particularly great, but at least it would send the right message.

[manwhohaseverything]

Whatever the message they want to send is pointless, if there aren't any takers. They can push sidekick narrative all they want but nobody seems to take it.So,the current costume can be seen as another new costume. And i don't believe wally's kid flash days should be something that we need to run from.
Btw, since the main universe is fully changed back to preflashpoint/postcrisis world. So does this mean wally run is also back? I mean, ma and pa are alive nobody is batting an eye.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Whatever the message they want to send is pointless, if there aren't any takers. They can push sidekick narrative all they want but nobody seems to take it.So,the current costume can be seen as another new costume. And i don't believe wally's kid flash days should be something that we need to run from.
Btw, since the main universe is fully changed back to preflashpoint/postcrisis world. So does this mean wally run is also back? I mean, ma and pa are alive nobody is batting an eye.

The universe is not fully back. It probably never will, where gonna enter some sort of amalgam thing soon; Wally is not fully back right now, but since his kids are back in the DClock image, there's a chance that they'll re-introduce his history.

[manwhohaseverything]

I mean, what's left there for any sort of amalgamation?new52 is designated as its own earth.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I mean, what's left there for any sort of amalgamation?new52 is designated as its own earth.

JL history is not fully restored, neither is Wally's, there's a new Legion, some New52 backgrounds have carried over to current continuity (like Supergirl, Blue Beeetle, Donna Troy, Raven) some stuff exclusive to New 52 was kept, like Red Hood, the backgrounds for Stephanie and Cass, etc, etc.

At the end of the day, there isn't a single big crossover that happened in post-Crisis that could have happened exactly as it was in current continuity. The general DC "feel" is mostly back, but continuity... no one knows for sure.

[manwhohaseverything]

JL history is not fully restored, neither is Wally's, there's a new Legion, some New52 backgrounds have carried over to current continuity (like Supergirl, Blue Beeetle, Donna Troy, Raven) some stuff exclusive to New 52 was kept, like Red Hood, the backgrounds for Stephanie and Cass, etc, etc.

At the end of the day, there isn't a single big crossover that happened in post-Crisis that could have happened exactly as it was in current continuity. The general DC "feel" is mostly back, but continuity... no one knows for sure.

Legion is a different complicated story. New legion is the old legion and part of this world. They have a history with this earth's clark. There is a precrisis legion for earth 1985 the pricrsis earth. The secret origins legion will become redundant. We don't need same legion for two worlds. So, this worlds legion changed form.As for supergirl and the others, their events are presumably added. I mean, conner was raised by ma and pa. Bendis and fraction had teased that.

[Lee]

I don't agree. The problem with 'legacy' characters is that they are and always will be in someone else's shadow.

It depends on how it's handled. But what we're seeing with several DC characters now isn't a proper lineage, since they're sharing the identity simultaneously. That's not a legacy, it defeats the purpose. They can't all be King of England.

The Advantage is simple... They won't get confused. This is a major flaw of the 'legacy' concept... You can't have multiples of the same characer running around at once. The general public would be confused. His wife was a reporter... Barry's wife is a reporter... Does anyone seriously think they're going on the air talking about how Flash saved a bus of children... the Flash in the silver and with the open hair.. who used to be regular flash till the other flash came back... That's just awkward as it comes. It was a big nitpick with Miles Morales. Nobody in their right mind would want to share the name Spider-man… not in the 616 where he's regularly accused of being a menace and a murderer... or have his enemies come crawling out of the woodwork swearing revenge on something two other Spider-men may have done...

Miles Morales has been a successful character for Marvel, but they still struggle with what to call him. As far as the company is concerned, Spider-Man is Peter Parker and wears the classic red and blue costume. So when it comes to merchandise and cartoons, they kind of tip-toe around it. In the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, he ended up going by "Kid Arachnid" (also used on toys and merchandise, even non "Ultimate Spider-Man" branded merch). In the current cartoon show they avoided using a codename for a long time, and apparently recently settled on "Spy-D". Even with Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, when it came to Hasbro's action figures the red and blue costume Spider-Man (Peter) was labelled "Spider-Man" and the black and red costume Spider-Man (Miles) was labelled "Miles Morales".

This has now affected the comics, to an extent - the current monthly series is titled "Miles Morales: Spider-Man", but the graphic novel collection of the first six issues is called "Miles Morales Vol 1: Straight Out of Brooklyn", dropping "Spider-Man" from the title altogether.

It's a bit of an IP nightmare. We saw a similar issue with the super-hero version of Gwen Stacy. In her debut she was "Spider-Woman", simply because they didn't count on her becoming a recurring character. She was never supposed to last beyond the original Spider-Verse story-arc. Then the title of her series became "Spider-Gwen", which was always awkward, and not actually the character's name. Now, after a transitional period, they've finally settled on "Ghost-Spider" as the name of the character and her comic.

Wally West is in a similar position with merchandise. His recent action figure is "Wally West". The word "Flash" doesn't appear anywhere on the packaging, even on his bio.

But really, Wally West is in a far weaker position than Miles Morales. Marvel sees great value in having a teenage mixed race black/Latino Spider-Man character and how he expands their audience, even if they can't decide what to call him. DC Entertainment doesn't see much value in having another young adult straight white American male version of Flash.

Clinging to a name like that is strictly meta and trademark and copyright issues... it makes zero sense in-universe. Wally pushed the limits there when he was 'honoring his uncle'... but with him back there's no reason to cling stubbornly to that. Having a 'Robin/Nightwing' moment would NOT be bad for him.

I agree. It's like, Wally got to be the Red Power Ranger for a long time, but now Barry is the Red Power Ranger. And fans are shouting for Wally to still be the Red Ranger, because the Red Ranger is the leader, the one front and centre. But you can't have two Red Rangers in the same team, it's a futile effort. It's better for Wally to be the Green Ranger - the cool and powerful one, the one who stands out from the crowd. Rather than saying "give Wally the Tyrannosaurus" we should be saying "give Wally the Dragonzord".

Yes, they would. No one treats Captain Marvel Jr. as Shazam. Not to mention the non heroes. Looking the part is important here.

There's no advantage in looking the part if the part has already been cast.

What Wally wears now says "Kid Flash". It shouldn't. It's as simple as that,

In what way? The colour scheme was inspired by the Walter West costume, which certainly didn't have any "Kid" connotations. The only thing carried over from the Kid Flash costume is the exposed hair, which we've seen with many adult heroes - '90s Cyclops, Booster Gold, Johnny Quick, Madman etc.

I think a big part of it was communicating to lapsed readers which version of Flash it was, since they were bringing back an old character and giving him a new costume at the same time. If a lapsed reader sees a comic cover with a Flash character who has red hair, they'll naturally assume it's Wally. There's no risk of them thinking "Barry got a new costume" and passing it by.

The current suit is okay. I think it could be better. If it were up to me I'd take it further away from the Silver Age Flash costume, and keep the silver accent colour for visual continuity. (Conversely, I'd bring Barry's suit back in line with the Silver Age look.)

[BohemiaDrinker]

There's no advantage in looking the part if the part has already been cast.

You're coming from the premise that Barrys is the Flash and Wally should get whatever scrap thrown his way. That's what I'm opposing at the first place. Whatever Wally wears, it shopuld e a costume that, if he replaces Barry in the Justice League tomorrow, it wouldn't look out of place. Current look is not that.

In what way?

It's literally KF's costume with swapped colors.

I think a big part of it was communicating to lapsed readers which version of Flash it was, since they were bringing back an old character and giving him a new costume at the same time. If a lapsed reader sees a comic cover with a Flash character who has red hair, they'll naturally assume it's Wally. There's no risk of them thinking "Barry got a new costume" and passing it by.

An if exposed hair was all of the issue, it would be a much smaller problem. Even so, Wally is in an specific position in that who buys whatever he is in actively seeks it. I really doubt anyone stumbled on it.

The current suit is okay. I think it could be better. If it were up to me I'd take it further away from the Silver Age Flash costume, and keep the silver accent colour for visual continuity. (Conversely, I'd bring Barry's suit back in line with the Silver Age look.)

Silver age Barry suit is a great design and a solid base, but it needed updating (since the updating it suffered was most during Wally's tenure). I'm not a fan of the New 52 look either, but something along the lines of what he was wearing at the end of Flash Year One is perfect: classic, clean, identifiable as Barry even besides Wally's classic costumes due to it's unique elements (+M shaped belt, open eyes, outline emblem).

As for Wally, I'm completely against silver. It sets him apart from the Flash identity. And the guy who gets the silver medal is the one who comes in second.

[Lee]

You're coming from the premise that Barrys is the Flash and Wally should get whatever scrap thrown his way. That's what I'm opposing at the first place. Whatever Wally wears, it shopuld e a costume that, if he replaces Barry in the Justice League tomorrow, it wouldn't look out of place. Current look is not that.

I'm coming from the premise that Barry is The Flash across all media, and, temporary line-wide initiatives (5G) aside, that's not going to change. He's not going to replace Barry on the Justice League, not on a long-term basis.

They're not on an equal footing. No two Flashes have ever been on an equal footing. That's the reality of the situation.

Wally isn't going to thrive if everything he is and does overlaps with Barry Allen. If a character doesn't serve a purpose then their role will be diminished.

It's literally KF's costume with swapped colors.

Speaking literally, it isn't. It doesn't have the big gloves, the emblem is different to Wally's KF costume, the mask has a chin strap. The two tones of red give a completely different impression to the contrasting red and yellow. Aside from the exposed hair, there's more overlap with Barry's costume than there is Wally's yellow Kid Flash costume.

But if it is too similar to the Kid Flash costume, then making it more like the Barry Allen Flash costume isn't a good solution.

Silver age Barry suit is a great design and a solid base, but it needed updating

I disagree. It's an iconic design that's stood the test of time for decades. It was only minimally tweaked in the 1990s, and almost all of those changes were reverted by the end of the decade.

[Waterfall]

Don't you guys ever get tired of whining about same things over and over again? This is why this fandom is being called toxic now.

You need to make peace about the fact that Wally will never be important like you want him to be and move on. It's been 10 years. Giving him his kids back pretty much sealed his fate. If they wanted to market him, they would have given him Barry treatment in update, instead they decided to pander to vocal minority to shut them up.

Instead of focusing on what happened, it's time to get real expectations and think about the future at this point.

[deadman322]

Don't you guys ever get tired of whining about same things over and over again? This is why this fandom is being called toxic now.

You need to make peace about the fact that Wally will never be important like you want him to be and move on. It's been 10 years. Giving him his kids back pretty much sealed his fate. If they wanted to market him, they would have given him Barry treatment in update, instead they decided to pander to vocal minority to shut them up.

Instead of focusing on what happened, it's time to get real expectations and think about the future at this point.

you want realistic expectations okay

lets just talk about how wallys gunna die off panel next year.

[manwhohaseverything]

Don't you guys ever get tired of whining about same things over and over again? This is why this fandom is being called toxic now.

You need to make peace about the fact that Wally will never be important like you want him to be and move on. It's been 10 years. Giving him his kids back pretty much sealed his fate. If they wanted to market him, they would have given him Barry treatment in update, instead they decided to pander to vocal minority to shut them up.

Instead of focusing on what happened, it's time to get real expectations and think about the future at this point.

These guys don't just whine. They discuss comics staring wally that was published in the past,casue of the garbage they get nowadays.Wally fans are really vocal minority. Then dc managements great idea of so called heroes in crisis wouldn't have had such a backlash. They wouldn't have made wally the fastest man alive. You can hate it or love it. Wally means something to people that barry never could. He became the hero he idolised. Barry was already a hero. He didn't need to grow into anything.

[Lee]

I think it's possible to have realistic desires and expectations without some of the baseless negativity we've been seeing ("Wally's story in Flash #750 is going to suck", "The Flash Age is going to ruin Wally", "But also Wally won't appear in The Flash Age or Flash #750", "Wally's going to be killed in the next event", "Wally's kids are going to be lost forever", "But also Wally's kids are going to be back forever and ruin him", "But also he's going to be dead").

Realistically, Wally's not going to replace Barry as "THE FLASH" again any time soon and they're not going to get equal billing. He's either going to stay around in a diminished capacity as a team player, doing the same thing, like a Kyle Rayner or a Tim Drake or a Jay Garrick, or they can try something new to revitalise him and keep him relevant.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I'm coming from the premise that Barry is The Flash across all media, and, temporary line-wide initiatives (5G) aside, that's not going to change. He's not going to replace Barry on the Justice League, not on a long-term basis.

They're not on an equal footing. No two Flashes have ever been on an equal footing. That's the reality of the situation.

Wally isn't going to thrive if everything he is and does overlaps with Barry Allen. If a character doesn't serve a purpose then their role will be diminished.

You used some pretty words here to confirm what I said.

No 2 Flashes have ever been in equal footing? Then, it's about time. Again, DC screwed a popular character. It bit then in the ass. Not my role to be understanding or take scraps.

Speaking literally, it isn't. It doesn't have the big gloves, the emblem is different to Wally's KF costume, the mask has a chin strap. The two tones of red give a completely different impression to the contrasting red and yellow. Aside from the exposed hair, there's more overlap with Barry's costume than there is Wally's yellow Kid Flash costume.

Yes, it is. Exposed hair, top and boots one color, pants and gloves a secondary color, ligtining motif. Apart from the custom emblem, you can take Wallace's current costume and turn it into Wally's in about 45 seconds in Photoshop, with no skill required. Because it's the same costume.

But if it is too similar to the Kid Flash costume, then making it more like the Barry Allen Flash costume isn't a good solution.

Again, you're the one hung up on this "similar to Barry" thing, not me. I'm not against going crazy with it, at all. But it should represent the adult, accomplished, baddass hero that he is. It shouldn't look "Flash-Lite".

I disagree. It's an iconic design that's stood the test of time for decades. It was only minimally tweaked in the 1990s, and almost all of those changes were reverted by the end of the decade.

Yes, and no. The design is solid AF, I agree, and the updates in the 90's indeed were subtle. But some aspects of it look dated now. Mainly, in Wally's tenure, we have the first update (Chrome color, white eyes, no wings on boots, V-Shaped belt), and 2 ou opf those four elements were reversed ( white eyes and chrome color were discarded).

The Flash year one suit "updated" mainly the boots (no wings), the belt (M-shaped) and put an outline on the emblem (which is now a staple for Flash emblems, I guess). It's still basically the same silver age design, but gets rid of the dated aspects.

Don't you guys ever get tired of whining about same things over and over again? This is why this fandom is being called toxic now.

Nope, been at it for too long now.

Ad the fandom was deemed toxic immediately once Barry returned anyway: not liking Flash Rebirth was grounds for being banned from Geoff Johns forum way back when. This "toxic" narrative began almost before any discussion on the matter. TPTB were all "wait and see" back then. I waited, now I want to "see". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BohemiaDrinker]

I think it's possible to have realistic desires and expectations without some of the baseless negativity we've been seeing ("Wally's story in Flash #750 is going to suck", "The Flash Age is going to ruin Wally", "But also Wally won't appear in The Flash Age or Flash #750", "Wally's going to be killed in the next event", "Wally's kids are going to be lost forever", "But also Wally's kids are going to be back forever and ruin him", "But also he's going to be dead").

It's called "pattern recognition".

Realistically, Wally's not going to replace Barry as "THE FLASH" again any time soon

That's fine.

and they're not going to get equal billing.

That's not.

He's either going to stay around in a diminished capacity as a team player, doing the same thing, like a Kyle Rayner or a Tim Drake or a Jay Garrick

That's fine. Can we give him a costume that is not specifically designed to make him seen as inferior, and write him correctly? If so, good.

or they can try something new to revitalise him and keep him relevant.

Yeah, that's a fallacy. "Let's maker him White Lantern. It will make him different and relevant. Then we can make him Green Lantern again. Then he just vanishes, whatever".

If Wally is commercially a different Flash, with a different personality, that doesn't appear as much, but does so when it makes sense, that's just fine. More, it's pretty much all of what fans have been asking. But that position has to be built from Wally, not from Barry's leftovers. If Wally is the one no one really remembers, with an inferior uniform, doing **** that removes him from the larger universe? That's just crap. And it's what being done with the excuse of "relevance", now that "No Wally" just doesn't fly anymore. It's no different than PTSD killer Wally, pacemaker Wally, forgotten by everyone Wally.

I have no problem with Wally being seen on a story by story basis. But proper Wally, not what they've been doing.