Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2019

[BohemiaDrinker]

Agreed on the former, but to me the second just doesn't matter. Waid's Flash (followed closely by Johns' run) is just about the high water mark for 1990s DC. They're reprinting them now, and that will likely continue for years to come.

Most of DCs greatest runs have been erased, retconned or reassigned either through Crisis or the retcon era we live in. Does it make them any less? Not to me. Waid's and Johns' runs are classics. They will outlive current continuity.

I'll have to disagree. There are characters I want to read that are greatly defined by their best runs: I may never get a Mark Waid's quality Wally's Flash again, but when I see Wally, I wanna see that guy. This doesn't mean that every single bit of conitnuity minutia has to be in place, but I do want to see his status, his relationships and landmarks respected. Otherwise I'm reading a different character. A Wally that didn't reach that peak is not the same Wally. I have no interest in newbie Wally.

And this can be applied to every character but the trinity, which has a certain level of importance that will keep them as THE TRINITY, no matter what.

[Lee]

So do I, but you keep repeating stuff that has been addressed multiple times without even addressing what you're replying to. For instance, from the post you replied, we have:

.

Yes, when I say that all I care about is how Wally is treated "in universe", I mean both that I don't give a shit to other media and that, in universe, I want him to be recognized as as the Flash (which he isn't), act like the Flash he always was (which he doesn't) and look like the Flash as well (which, again, he doesn't).

These are super-hero comics, and uniforms are part of the characterization: if you put Wally in a purple unicorn suit, even every other character shouts "oh my God, this purple unicorn theme is the best uniform ever" is not gonna make it so.

This is not hard to understand. This has been explained in numerous different ways thanks to you posting the same thing again and again and again regardless of what clarification you been given. You do not "sound" like a stupid person, so the only conclusion I can reach is that you're trying to deconstruct my speech by infinite annoyance and semantics discussion. It's not gonna work (something else I said way back by now).

This is your subjective interpretation of the material, rather than anything explicit in the text, in which he is identified as The Flash. The characters within the fiction recognise his costume as a Flash costume and call him Flash. Whether the audience would know to identify him as Flash is a real world issue, rather than an in-universe issue.

In-universe Terry McGinnis is recognised as Batman and wears a Batman costume. In the real world heÂ’s recognised as Batman Beyond and his costume is the Batman Beyond costume.

[BohemiaDrinker]

This is your subjective interpretation of the material, rather than anything explicit in the text, in which he is identified as The Flash. The characters within the fiction recognise his costume as a Flash costume and call him Flash. Whether the audience would know to identify him as Flash is a real world issue, rather than an in-universe issue.

In-universe Terry McGinnis is recognised as Batman and wears a Batman costume. In the real world heÂ’s recognised as Batman Beyond and his costume is the Batman Beyond costume.

Well, first of all, the answer you're looking for is in the very first post of the point in which you're dwelling on. I won't explain it further because it's obvious that you're just playing dumb.

That said, let's for a moment indulge you and say that this particular grievance does not not stem from an in universe perspective. So what? What did you prove?

[Kyer]

1. This has nothing to do with Wally West beyond it has Tom King and A-Certain-Exec-Mentioned. I still think its relevent. Maybe.

2. Okay.... I still utterly LOATHE Heroes in Crisis. I mean UTTERLY LOATHE it. This does not change how I view HIC.

3. I still feel much the same for a certain exec whose name starts with D and the opening paragraph here just....makes that much worse.

4. I may have to get this book despite that it is by Tom King and does not have Wally West.

5. I'm not endorsing this site. I'm not really a fan of them, but they are the only ones where I can get a bit more than the average 'Preview'. It's just that when I first became aware of Wally West beyond the JLU animated show back in January 2009 this is the main one that I found that featured actual comic book scans as opposed to just random screen shots (up to 1/3rd of a story).

Also, I'm clearly not the orignal poster.

All clear?

On to a Superman-themed post of a story by Tom King that I'm re-posting for sake of that first paragraph by Tom King because it just made me pissed. Also because I'm shocked I actually liked something by the author.

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/8656823.html

[Frontier]

1. This has nothing to do with Wally West beyond it has Tom King and A-Certain-Exec-Mentioned. I still think its relevent. Maybe.

2. Okay.... I still utterly LOATHE Heroes in Crisis. I mean UTTERLY LOATHE it. This does not change how I view HIC.

3. I still feel much the same for a certain exec whose name starts with D and the opening paragraph here just....makes that much worse.

4. I may have to get this book despite that it is by Tom King and does not have Wally West.

5. I'm not endorsing this site. I'm not really a fan of them, but they are the only ones where I can get a bit more than the average 'Preview'. It's just that when I first became aware of Wally West beyond the JLU animated show back in January 2009 this is the main one that I found that featured actual comic book scans as opposed to just random screen shots (up to 1/3rd of a story).

Also, I'm clearly not the orignal poster.

All clear?

On to a Superman-themed post of a story by Tom King that I'm re-posting for sake of that first paragraph by Tom King because it just made me pissed. Also because I'm shocked I actually liked something by the author.

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/8656823.html

I guess even Tom King couldn't resist writing a triumphant Superman story .

[Dred]

This is your subjective interpretation of the material, rather than anything explicit in the text, in which he is identified as The Flash. The characters within the fiction recognise his costume as a Flash costume and call him Flash. Whether the audience would know to identify him as Flash is a real world issue, rather than an in-universe issue.

In-universe Terry McGinnis is recognised as Batman and wears a Batman costume. In the real world heÂ’s recognised as Batman Beyond and his costume is the Batman Beyond costume.

Except they don't, because even in the comic the most important heroes belittle and ignore him. They all call him Wallace or Wally while calling Barry Flash, and Batman explicitly says, "Your boy" to him when addressing him and Barry. This is consistent across pretty much every comic because DC does not want to confuse people into thinking Wally could possibly be Barry's equal. Even Barry failed to treat Wally as an equal in universe, not even considering him the real Flash who could take care of things in Perfect Storm -- and being proven RIGHT by the story.

He's less often called the Flash and just more often called Wally. Even when he supposedly has his secret identity back now. It's like how he came back in DCUniverse Rebirth in his Kid Flash costume. The entire point of how they handle Wally is, both in universe and out, to make sure everyone knows he's not considered the real Flash. Even Barry did it to him in Perfect Storm. BARRY. The one guy in the world who's supposed to believe in Wally more than anyone else didn't believe in him being The Flash.

Amusingly, the only comic where he was frequently referred to as The Flash was Heroes in Crisis where that's what Booster and Blue called him once they figured stuff out. The comic that utterly crushed Wally's character and ripped the soul of being a hero out of his premise, throwing him in jail and out of super hero activity before...he got shipped off to the multiverse, where no one would be able to compare him and Barry.

[Frontier]

Yeah, I really wasn't sure what Williamson was going for with Barry during Perfect Storm. He came off quite a bit OOC during that arc.

[Dred]

I'm not sure it is OOC for Barry any more. It's not like it matters, Wally is a monster to the hero community right now and literally no one has ever talked about it since it happened. The Flash even made a passing remark about how they don't talk about it. The most damning thing they've done to the character and then they just act like it doesn't matter at all.

[Lee]

Well, first of all, the answer you're looking for is in the very first post of the point in which you're dwelling on. I won't explain it further because it's obvious that you're just playing dumb.

That said, let's for a moment indulge you and say that this particular grievance does not not stem from an in universe perspective. So what? What did you prove?

You’re ascribing motives that assume the worst of me. I’ve not made any judgements on your character - I don’t know you.

How a character is recognised within the fiction and outside of the fiction are two different issues. To adjust a character’s standing in each regard requires different methods, that sometimes overlap and sometimes don’t.

[Lee]

Except they don't, because even in the comic the most important heroes belittle and ignore him. They all call him Wallace or Wally while calling Barry Flash, and Batman explicitly says, "Your boy" to him when addressing him and Barry. This is consistent across pretty much every comic because DC does not want to confuse people into thinking Wally could possibly be Barry's equal. Even Barry failed to treat Wally as an equal in universe, not even considering him the real Flash who could take care of things in Perfect Storm -- and being proven RIGHT by the story.

He's less often called the Flash and just more often called Wally. Even when he supposedly has his secret identity back now. It's like how he came back in DCUniverse Rebirth in his Kid Flash costume. The entire point of how they handle Wally is, both in universe and out, to make sure everyone knows he's not considered the real Flash. Even Barry did it to him in Perfect Storm. BARRY. The one guy in the world who's supposed to believe in Wally more than anyone else didn't believe in him being The Flash.

Amusingly, the only comic where he was frequently referred to as The Flash was Heroes in Crisis where that's what Booster and Blue called him once they figured stuff out. The comic that utterly crushed Wally's character and ripped the soul of being a hero out of his premise, throwing him in jail and out of super hero activity before...he got shipped off to the multiverse, where no one would be able to compare him and Barry.

Wally West’s superhero name is The Flash.

When there is a comic with two or more characters named Flash, then it becomes an issue of readability, accessibility, clarity. We can see this in the current Flash arc, where within the dialogue Barry is called Flash and Avery is called Avery. The civilians of the DC Universe would know her as Flash. That is her superhero name. But in this particular story it would make for awkward reading to not make a distinction between the two characters.

This is an inherent problem in having multiple characters with the same name co-existing.

[Dred]

Wally West’s superhero name is The Flash.

When there is a comic with two or more characters named Flash, then it becomes an issue of readability, accessibility, clarity. We can see this in the current Flash arc, where within the dialogue Barry is called Flash and Avery is called Avery. The civilians of the DC Universe would know her as Flash. That is her superhero name. But in this particular story it would make for awkward reading to not make a distinction between the two characters.

This is an inherent problem in having multiple characters with the same name co-existing.

No one's calling Barry by his name in these situations. That is my point.

[Jekyll]

Which reminds me, I hope everyone is having a great holiday season.........except for Dan Didio and Tom King.

[BohemiaDrinker]

You’re ascribing motives that assume the worst of me. I’ve not made any judgements on your character - I don’t know you.

How a character is recognised within the fiction and outside of the fiction are two different issues. To adjust a character’s standing in each regard requires different methods, that sometimes overlap and sometimes don’t.

You're trying to dictate the definition of "in universe" even though you understood my point almost ten thread pages ago, and even though is more than obvious that the definition that you are trying to dictate is not the same I used. You're ignoring everything being said that doesn't fit it.

At this point there isn't even a point you're trying to make. My position on the costume won't change because you want to narrow down what a term means. And my general position wouldn't change even if I admitted that your definition is right - which, let's be clear, I don't.

I said way back: stop prodding things looking for inconsistencies, it leads nowhere and is annoying.

[Lee]

No one's calling Barry by his name in these situations. That is my point.

Of course not. He’s the titular character and protagonist of the comic book titled The Flash. That’s the real world consideration.

[Lee]

You're trying to dictate the definition of "in universe" even though you understood my point almost ten thread pages ago, and even though is more than obvious that the definition that you are trying to dictate is not the same I used. You're ignoring everything being said that doesn't fit it.

At this point there isn't even a point you're trying to make. My position on the costume won't change because you want to narrow down what a term means. And my general position wouldn't change even if I admitted that your definition is right - which, let's be clear, I don't.

I said way back: stop prodding things looking for inconsistencies, it leads nowhere and is annoying.

I don’t understand your definition. I’ve always understood “in universe” to mean within the fiction. If you’re taking real world considerations into account, then that’s outside of the fiction, “out of universe”. I don’t understand the boundaries of your personal definition of “in universe” if it also takes some but not all real world considerations into account.