Seven Hells! Hawkman Appreciation 2019

[bat39]

So, what did you'll think of issue 13?

spoilers:

I thought it was a brilliant concept. Yes, at its heart, it was a pretty vanilla idealistic "war is evil, give peace a chance" story, but the reincarnation angle gave it an intriguing twist. It was kinda like 'Groundhog Day', with reincarnation instead of time-travel. I got a pretty strong 'Edge of Tomorrow' vibe from this story. Of course, what could have been more intriguing is if Carter (or whatever his past life's name was) ended up fighting an enemy soldier who's another one of his incarnations. Given that its now established that he doesn't have to reincarnate chronologically, I think this was something they could play with. But instead they opted for a simpler story of him dying over and over on either side of the war, subconsciously remembering enough to humanize the other side in his mind, and finally deciding to make a difference. And ultimately, this story worked out perfectly. The big highlight of this issue is the return of Hawkgirl - or rather a past life of hers called 'Sherra'. I think they really need to explain how Hawkgirl fits into the new origin, but in the meantime these appearances by her other incarnations might be a good way to include her in this book without stepping on the toes of Snyder and co.

end of spoilers

[Ascended]

Animation could work, as long it isn't the DCAU, JLU was good in general, but not to Hawkman. Maybe a Black Label book with some great creator.

I think the Hawks are perfect for animation.

I also think that a YA graphic novel could, potentially, catch an audience too. I forget which imprint between Zoom and Ink is supposed to be for the older kids, but the story of a young Hawkman/girl trying to deal with memories of their past lives and all the drama that causes and all the stuff happening to them in the here and now.....that feels like it could appeal to the teen crowd, if done right. Lots of obvious parallels to play with, yknow?

And.....I mean, it'll never happen, but a video game seems like a slam dunk.

[TravelerInTheDark]

I like the book currently, but it's getting difficult to ignore how seperated this book is from the rest of the universe. The character feels very isolated right now.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but still.

[Frontier]

I think the Hawks are perfect for animation.

I also think that a YA graphic novel could, potentially, catch an audience too. I forget which imprint between Zoom and Ink is supposed to be for the older kids, but the story of a young Hawkman/girl trying to deal with memories of their past lives and all the drama that causes and all the stuff happening to them in the here and now.....that feels like it could appeal to the teen crowd, if done right. Lots of obvious parallels to play with, yknow?

And.....I mean, it'll never happen, but a video game seems like a slam dunk.

Now that you mention it, I could totally see the Hawks in a Young Adult novel .

[DrNewGod]

I think the Hawks are perfect for animation.

I also think that a YA graphic novel could, potentially, catch an audience too. I forget which imprint between Zoom and Ink is supposed to be for the older kids, but the story of a young Hawkman/girl trying to deal with memories of their past lives and all the drama that causes and all the stuff happening to them in the here and now.....that feels like it could appeal to the teen crowd, if done right. Lots of obvious parallels to play with, yknow?

And.....I mean, it'll never happen, but a video game seems like a slam dunk.

It depends on what we're taking about when we say animation. The motions of their wings are going to be complicated effects. If we're talking about the budgets most DC properties seem to get, I'll pass. If they're going all in, I'm there.

[bat39]

So, the Justice League are going to be meeting the Golden Age JSA soon, and it does look like that includes the Golden Age Hawkman.

Wonder how that fits into the Hawkman mythos that Venditti has established.

Correct me if I'm wrong (since I haven't read Metal yet, though I'm going to soon), but I don't think its ever been established what Carter Hall's history in the Rebirth timeline looks like. As in, when did he debut as Hawkman? Was he ever a member of the Justice League before? Was Hawkgirl Shiera before becoming Kendra? And how exactly Katar Hol fits into all this, given that he's another incarnation (and a previous one at that). And now we have the added wrinkle of Golden Age Hawkman returning.

My guess, which I posted on the JSA return thread as well, is that there are two options-

1. Golden Age Carter Hall was a past life of Rebirth Carter. In the original timeline, he became Hawkman in the 40's and joined the JSA. But Manhattan tampered with the timeline, and prevented Golden Age Carter Hall from becoming Hawkman. In the new timeline, Golden Age Carter eventually died, and at some point was reborn as Rebirth Carter, who then becomes Hawkman in a more contemporary era. This also explains away the whole Shiera/Kendra thing. Shiera was the Golden Age incarnation, Kendra is the current incarnation.

2. Much like what happened with Superman, Manhattan's tampering 'brought forward' Carter Hall's life. Instead of being reborn in the 1910's, Carter was now born in the 1980's or so, becoming Hawkman decades after he was 'supposed' to. This would make Golden Age Hawkman a previous timeline version of current Hawkman - much like Golden Age Superman is a previous timeline version of the current Superman.

[Hawkman]

So, what did you'll think of issue 13?

I think it was my favorite issue of the series so far, which kind of surprised me. You're right that it was somewhat cliched, but it totally got me in the end. Found it very moving, even.

Like you, though, I also expected to see Carter fighting against himself, with Venditti using the opportunity to fully integrate the new wrinkle of Hawkman reincarnating across time and space. Wasn't really necessary, though, and the tact he took probably made the whole thing work better.

[Hawkman]

I wonder what other markets DC could introduce the Hawks into and have it translate well?

It's the longest of long-shots, but outside of the obvious like a film or traditional animated series, a Hawkman anime could be awesome. The combined reincarnation and romance angles feel almost built for the medium right now.

I wish DC would do more prose novels featuring their characters in general, though. That said, how about a series of novels centering around Carter's myriad past lives? Each new book could be a totally different genre, from swords and sorcery, to western, to detective. I'd read 'em. And hey, if DC needs some material, I'd be happy to write some of 'em, too.

[Hawkman]

So, the Justice League are going to be meeting the Golden Age JSA soon, and it does look like that includes the Golden Age Hawkman.

Wonder how that fits into the Hawkman mythos that Venditti has established.

Correct me if I'm wrong (since I haven't read Metal yet, though I'm going to soon), but I don't think its ever been established what Carter Hall's history in the Rebirth timeline looks like. As in, when did he debut as Hawkman? Was he ever a member of the Justice League before? Was Hawkgirl Shiera before becoming Kendra? And how exactly Katar Hol fits into all this, given that he's another incarnation (and a previous one at that). And now we have the added wrinkle of Golden Age Hawkman returning.

The answer to your questions is basically "yes." Since Hawkman now reincarnates across time and space, everything holds true for him and, by extension, presumably Shiera (and Shayera and Kendra). The wrinkle now, though, is that there are a lot of gaps in his memories, so he doesn't remember very much of his past lives very vividly.

This gives the writers an out, I think, when doing something as monumental as reintegrating the JSA and its characters back into the DCU is no doubt going to be. Hawkman can basically give a hand-wave like,"Of course I remember my time with the JSA. Just as I do my time with the JLA. Who I was at the time gets a little muddy, though." Since he's both Carter and Katar now, it doesn't necessarily need to get any more complicated than that.

And as a fan, I don't really need it to be any more complicated than that, either. All that I ask is that his time with both teams and as both characters is acknowledged in some shape, manner, or form. Whether or not those acknowledgements are done in tandem, though, isn't particularly consequential to me. Honestly, the less they try to explain it, the happier I'll be.

[bat39]

The answer to your questions is basically "yes." Since Hawkman now reincarnates across time and space, everything holds true for him and, by extension, presumably Shiera (and Shayera and Kendra). The wrinkle now, though, is that there are a lot of gaps in his memories, so he doesn't remember very much of his past lives very vividly.

This gives the writers an out, I think, when doing something as monumental as reintegrating the JSA and its characters back into the DCU is no doubt going to be. Hawkman can basically give a hand-wave like,"Of course I remember my time with the JSA. Just as I do my time with the JLA. Who I was at the time gets a little muddy, though." Since he's both Carter and Katar now, it doesn't necessarily need to get any more complicated than that.

And as a fan, I don't really need it to be any more complicated than that, either. All that I ask is that his time with both teams and as both characters is acknowledged in some shape, manner, or form. Whether or not those acknowledgements are done in tandem, though, isn't particularly consequential to me. Honestly, the less they try to explain it, the happier I'll be.

I mean, yeah, so far they have kept it fairly vague, and its worked. But then again, they haven't really needed to draw upon past Hawkman continuity so far - beyond the reincarnation backstory of course.

But, for instance, we're getting Shadow Thief next issue. So obviously they're going to have to provide some sort of background to his enmity with Hawkman. Which means they'll have to give us some hints as to how Hawkman's backstory panned out in Rebirth continuity.

The JSA returning will almost certainly require some explanation as to Carter Hall's age and how long he's been active as a superhero. Is current Carter the reincarnation of JSA Carter, or is it the same life and Carter was de-aged/resurrected at some point, as he was pre-Flashpoint?

Also, where exactly does Katar Hol fit in, and which version of Katar is still canon? We know that Hawkworld Katar existed at some point, and is a past life of current Carter. But how does that tie in with the Savage Hawkman, who I assume is still in continuity? What about classic Silver Age Katar?

[Restingvoice]

Weeeelllll.....that's one answer the whole damn mess.

Originally, he was a reincarnated Egyptian prince. After that, he was a space policeman whose uniform happened to look just like the reincarnated Egyptian prince. Then things got weird.

Currently, he was a general the in service of some kind of evil god dude, who is being reincarnated across both space and time to atone for all the people he killed.

Feel free to take some aspirin at this point. Just typing all that stuff out gives me a migraine.

Straight up? This is the most continuity messed up character in all of comics. I think it's just a matter of time before DC jettisons him in favor of Hawkwoman. To some minds, he's probably more valuable as a Lost Love than he is as an ongoing character.

Evil god dude doesn't happen to be Barbatos isn't it? Because there's a tribe of bird and bat.

Sorry, I only reply now. I actually forgot I asked.

[Hawkman]

I mean, yeah, so far they have kept it fairly vague, and its worked. But then again, they haven't really needed to draw upon past Hawkman continuity so far - beyond the reincarnation backstory of course.

But, for instance, we're getting Shadow Thief next issue. So obviously they're going to have to provide some sort of background to his enmity with Hawkman. Which means they'll have to give us some hints as to how Hawkman's backstory panned out in Rebirth continuity.

The JSA returning will almost certainly require some explanation as to Carter Hall's age and how long he's been active as a superhero. Is current Carter the reincarnation of JSA Carter, or is it the same life and Carter was de-aged/resurrected at some point, as he was pre-Flashpoint?

Also, where exactly does Katar Hol fit in, and which version of Katar is still canon? We know that Hawkworld Katar existed at some point, and is a past life of current Carter. But how does that tie in with the Savage Hawkman, who I assume is still in continuity? What about classic Silver Age Katar?

I just wouldn't think about that it hard, I guess. I've never been a continuity conformist (for lack of a better term; don't want to insult anyone who's more mindful of continuity than I am, though), so I tend to just read stuff as it comes.

To get into the weeds, though, Snyder has already acknowledged The Savage Hawkman Katar and Shayera, although Shayera seems more akin to her pre-Flashpoint iteration than post-. Not just the red hair, but her personality, too. And Carter's been shown a couple of times with the JSA in various things. My assumption, then, would be Carter's been Hawkman for the majority of current continuity, and Katar only came onto the seen recently. Silver Age Katar and Hawkworld Katar presumably only exist as alternate universe past lives of Carter's.

As for Shadow-Thief, we'll have to wait and see. Last we saw a Jewish woman was brandishing the moniker. Could be this is the first we'll meet Carl Sands in the new continuity, although the solicit intimates ("returns") he's been around before. Perhaps they'll detail that he took the tech back from the previous Shadow-Thief but hasn't properly encountered Hawkman yet. Carter will remember him from previous continuities (Silver Age Katar and Hawkworld both), but only vaguely. Who really knows, though?

Again, continuity's never been that important to me, which is one of the reasons why I've never had any trouble maintaining my fondness for Hawkman. I actually think a freer flowing continuity; taking things as they come and adapting it as the story dictates, that is, allows for more interesting stories. But at the same time, I understand why some people think differently, too.

[Flash Gordon]

I liked the Edge of Tomorrow issue! I hope we get more done-in-one stories to cleanse the plate after the big epic Battle of the Hawkpeople.

[bat39]

I liked the Edge of Tomorrow issue! I hope we get more done-in-one stories to cleanse the plate after the big epic Battle of the Hawkpeople.

Venditti, in an interview, expressed an interest in doing more stories exploring past lives of Hawkman. So I'd love to see more one and two-parters along those lines.

[MajorHoy]

venditti seems to be doing good with it.

wonder how the sales are?

May 2019 = 123rd - Hawkman #12 - 18,135 copies
April 2019 = 103rd - Hawkman #11 - 18,392 copies
March 2019 = 106th - Hawkman #10 - 18,269 copies
February 2019 = 95th - Hawkman #9 - 18,829 copies
January 2019 = 109th - Hawkman #8 - 20,198 copies
December 2018 = 96th - Hawkman #7 - 20,625 copies

But don't forget, those are only the number of orders placed by comic book shops with Diamond Distribution, which serves primarily the U.S. and maybe parts of Canada? No digital numbers / these numbers do not include any collected editions, either.