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  1. #991

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    Your point was that Marvel continues to ignore Polaris' ties to Genosha, and that isn't true. Bunn mentioned it in Magneto's solo series, but because it wasn't super specific, it doesn't count. You can can continue to say all of Marvel is out to try to ignore her history, but I don't think that's true.
    I'm going to include the page where this happened, so that both the line and its surrounding context are present for comparison.



    None of this says Lorna was even on Genosha. All it does is show she's aware Genosha happened, and that Magneto was in charge of it.

    I could very easily argue that Bunn had no idea Lorna had anything to do with Genosha. That he only knew Lorna is Magneto's daughter and wanted to use her in that capacity to praise his leadership on something he thought she had nothing to do with. If I was dishonest, I could construct a whole case in that vein including scenes from Blue.

    Do I think he was hinting at her history? Sure, but you have to KNOW it's a part of her history, something you do not need to do any time it comes up for Magneto. Because Marvel explicitly acknowledges he has that history. Something they never do for Lorna.

    I'm not going to let Marvel slip by on a technicality where you have to KNOW Lorna's history and make assumptions that the average person very obviously is not going to be able to make in order to read it that way. That's not good enough. If they haven't explicitly acknowledged it in the same way they've done repeatedly for Magneto, then they're ignoring her history. Simple as that.

    My point about the use of "father" still very much applies here. Marvel can have her say "father" in X-Men #1 at least twice, maybe more, but she can't explicitly mention surviving Genosha once in 10 years (all media) or 15+ years (comics)? They didn't even do it in Prisoner X, where they had no issue showing far more obscure scenes, including forcing in one of Lorna kissing Havok.




    The only time I would say Marvel's actually acknowledged her Genosha history was the one lone Amazing Spider-Man cover from a year or two ago.




    That's the closest Marvel's ever come in 10/15+ years. That's not good enough. This is a hill I'm willing to die on.
    Last edited by salarta; 10-19-2019 at 03:28 PM.
    I can also be reached on BlueSky and Tumblr. Avatar by kahlart.

    Ghosts of Genosha minicomic focused on Polaris, written by me and drawn by Fin_NoMore.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  2. #992

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodfatherIV View Post
    The idea that Cyclops felt happy and fulfilled and at peace with having his family AND Lorna and her father around....and then going as far as to invite her over spoke of some chemistry at least in my opinion. Not that anything will happen but why not. Seems like people want to break up Scott and Jean anyway and really Havok has never been a favorite of mine so yeah lets go with it
    He invited her over mainly for his brother or he wouldn't have mentioned him when doing so. I will say in the overall free love flower power rubric of what is going sure its imaginable they could be sleeping together and Magneto sleeping with Scott and Xavier sleeping with Magneto and on and on, but it wouldn't come with the emotions and expectations that fans who don't know how such a set up worked put on it.

    I actually believe the free love era in American history was quite interesting, though its a foreign concept to all except a tiny number of people of the current generation. I have no problem in principle with them going full flower power on Kroakoa, but I do worry if they were shown to be sleeping together that the next several writers (and a great many fans) would make of it later far more of it then its actually due as such a set up doesn't come with many of the trappings of the things that people are used to when they think of romantic relationships.

    I generally think both characters are served very well as the second generation inheritors of the legacy of the mutant rights fight's founders and I really felt that in this issue a way that I haven't in any of their past interaction which is a good thing.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-19-2019 at 03:46 PM.

  3. #993
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    I stand by what I said. Marvel not bringing it up, doesn't mean they're ignoring it, or attempting to pretend like she wasn't involved. I'm not going to keep going on about it though. I'm not saying they don't have to bring it up, but I don't think its purposeful on Marvel's part.

    I understand why people like the idea of Polaris/Cyclops, they have some things in common, and probably could work well romantically, but Lorna needs connections that aren't family and significant others. I hope we see more of their friendship, but Hickman is going to do what Hickman wants to do.
    Last edited by Soulsword323; 10-19-2019 at 03:43 PM.

  4. #994
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    Yeah, that is an absolute reach. They've referenced her and Genosha a number of times over the years, they haven't been trying to cheat it or not measure up to some imaginary rubric. I guarantee you no one at Marvel who already doesn't care about Polaris is sitting around thinking 'oh ****, we better not mention Genosha!' in issues where she is featured.

    You think the way for Lorna to be actualized in books is for her past on Genosha to be regularly and explicitly referenced and discussed at length 18 years later, and even though it's had a number of references over the years it needs more. Other people don't agree. That's a difference of opinion and that's okay. It also doesn't speak to the larger question of what specifically is supposed to be 'wrong' with Dawn of X overall that make you say Lorna should not be featured in it.
    Last edited by powerpax; 10-19-2019 at 03:48 PM.

  5. #995

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    In honor of Lorna and X-men #1
    Not the best colorist.

    lornabw.jpg
    lornacolor.jpg
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
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    #conceptualthinking ^_^
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    Into the breach.
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  6. #996
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    In honor of Lorna and X-men #1
    Not the best colorist.

    lornabw.jpg
    lornacolor.jpg
    This is lovely! Thank you for sharing (and I really like the colors).

  7. #997

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    They've referenced her and Genosha a number of times over the years, they haven't been trying to cheat it or not measure up to some imaginary rubric. I guarantee you no one at Marvel who already doesn't care about Polaris is sitting around thinking 'oh ****, we better not mention Genosha!' in issues where she is featured.
    We've been over this before on other topics. You don't need to make a special outlined color-coded agenda with an "I hate Lorna" sticker on it to ignore her history when it shouldn't be ignored. All it takes is someone not giving enough of a damn to know or use anything about her even when it clearly should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    You think the way for Lorna to be actualized in books is for her past on Genosha to be regularly and explicitly referenced and discussed at length 18 years later, and even though it's had a number of references over the years it needs more.
    You don't need it regularly referenced. You need it referenced more often than a couple tiny easter eggs in the span of 10-15 years that most people will never get.

    Cite this number of times over the years. Years will be important.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    In honor of Lorna and X-men #1
    Not the best colorist.

    lornabw.jpg
    lornacolor.jpg
    Looks good! While I'm not a fan of something other than green as her primary color, it's still an excellent piece of work, and it's always cool to see fan reimaginings like this.
    I can also be reached on BlueSky and Tumblr. Avatar by kahlart.

    Ghosts of Genosha minicomic focused on Polaris, written by me and drawn by Fin_NoMore.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  8. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    You don't need it regularly referenced. You need it referenced more often than a couple tiny easter eggs in the span of 10-15 years that most people will never get.
    That's just it, though; other posters are telling you they don't see these as 'just easter eggs' the way you do. You may feel that way but perspectives are nuanced, and people are allowed to feel differently than you and still care about Polaris. And again, we also can't understand why you feel Dawn of X is bad and Lorna should not be in it unless you specifically tell us what that reason is as to why it's bad. It is not top secret intel.

  9. #999

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    That's just it, though; other posters are telling you they don't see these as 'just easter eggs' the way you do. You may feel that way but perspectives are nuanced, and people are allowed to feel differently than you and still care about Polaris. And again, we also can't understand why you feel Dawn of X is bad and Lorna should not be in it unless you specifically tell us what that reason is as to why it's bad. It is not top secret intel.
    What other posters think is their business. It's not going to stop me from saying exactly what I see. And what I see is Marvel ignoring that history, trying to skirt by on two technicalities and spending the rest of 10-15+ years pretending the most devastating thing she's ever been through in her entire life means less than calling Magneto her daddy or thinking of how often she's kissed Havok.

    Where else has Lorna's history with Genosha been cited, and when if known? If no response, I'll assume there's nothing to cite and won't ask again.
    Last edited by salarta; 10-19-2019 at 04:22 PM.
    I can also be reached on BlueSky and Tumblr. Avatar by kahlart.

    Ghosts of Genosha minicomic focused on Polaris, written by me and drawn by Fin_NoMore.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  10. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    It's not going to stop me from saying exactly what I see.
    Great! Then do it! Why should Lorna not be in Dawn of X? What is wrong with Dawn of X?

    I'm not going to act like this part of her history is worthless and only deserves a couple minor hints in 10-15+ years because "fans think different things on different things."
    Neither is anyone else, just because they disagree with you.

    Where else has Lorna's history with Genosha been cited? If no response, I'll assume there's nothing to cite and won't ask again.
    Well, I'm going out but when I have time to rifle through those books chapter and verse I am happy to do so. In the meantime I am sure others will, and I hope you'll acknowledge those references.

  11. #1001

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    The last explicit reference by Lorna to the genocide was X-Men 166 in January 2005 by Milligan.



    I give credit to HoX #5 for an implicit reference that everyone who knows her history in detail should be able to pick up on.

    In regards to ships I am not blind to the potential of Scott/Lorna if done well, but I also am not blind to the possible drawbacks. Also, it's also true every semi developed relationship she has at this point is either family, love interest or females she butt heads with because of conflict over love interest. I will say her relationships that aren’t in those categories need a bit of intensity as we saw her interaction with Scott did to even get noticed. Her relationship with Jean died long ago even with some early 00s attempts to resurrect it because there was no depth, conflict or intensity to it.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-19-2019 at 05:34 PM.

  12. #1002

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Neither is anyone else, just because they disagree with you.
    I took that sentence out after realizing how it could read, as my focus when writing it was inward. But since you quoted it and still have it in your post, I'm going to elaborate.

    Fans can think different things. But that aspect of Lorna's history means a hell of a lot to me. Everything I've seen to date says Marvel has no respect for it at all. If Marvel can explicitly show Lorna is Magneto's daughter, and explicitly show or much more vividly suggest that she dated Havok, then there's no reason they can't do the same for what happened to her on Genosha. They can stand to place at least the same amount of emphasis on this important aspect of her that has nothing to do with how useful she can be to men.

    This is the most important part of who Lorna is to me. With the importance I place on this part of her, saying I should think Marvel's done enough with it cause someone else thinks that is like telling me I should think everything about Lorna is worthless. Not worth caring about, or empathizing with, or fighting or arguing for. Other fans may think the most important thing about her is something else. Maybe it's crashing the plane her parents were in. Maybe it's being Havok's girlfriend. For me, it's surviving Genosha, and the trauma she endured.

    We're not talking about a nifty little costume she once wore. Many people spend their whole lives trying to find closure and healing from such devastating events. I think that merits far, far more than what Marvel's done to date. Trauma is weighty and deserves more respect. If I'm not going to expect more from Marvel in light of that, then what is even the point? Why read any stories? Why care? If that means nothing, then all of Marvel means nothing, and the company should shut down so people can spend their money on things that deserve it.


    Quick thanks to jmc for chiming in with the last explicit reference.
    I can also be reached on BlueSky and Tumblr. Avatar by kahlart.

    Ghosts of Genosha minicomic focused on Polaris, written by me and drawn by Fin_NoMore.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  13. #1003
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    You are entitled to that take. But Genosha isn't the most important part of Lorna to me. That is the difference. I think it's a key part of her character, but the reality is that for her entire association with Genosha, Polaris was an afterthought to ongoing plots there. I remember the morass of that era. She was never entirely integral to that action even when Genosha existed, because most of the company has never found Polaris integral to anything. So the basis to keep mining it for material has often been thin, because there was so little on the page to begin with.

    Does that mean they can't create, say, flashback stuff and explore it? Absolutely not. I'd like that a lot. But it's partly because of that threadbare background that I don't define Lorna by Genosha. I never have, because the truth is that it came in a period where she had fallen into disuse in the major books and was largely a background character. Magneto and Xavier, who also spent lengths of time in Genosha, do not talk about it nonstop and I don't feel the need for Lorna to do so. I'd like to see it explored more, but I don't feel she is underserved if they fail to define her by it. I define Lorna by her mysterious origins and conflicting loyalties (both possessed and non-possessed), her skating between being a damaged outsider/renegade and trying to fit in with the main line, and being sort of the funky misfit toy of the OG X-Men. YMMV.

    And I'd still like to know what specifically is wrong with Dawn of X and why Lorna should not be featured in it.

    As to jmc mentioning who to put Lorna with, not that romance is the most important thing but my answer is: Bishop; it would be kind of a film noir story with the femme fatale/outlaw and the detective, and they'd both go rogue from a team led by Dani Moonstar. #ifiwrotethebooks
    Last edited by powerpax; 10-19-2019 at 06:25 PM.

  14. #1004

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    Edit: Going to add that if Marvel continues to ignore this, they may as well ignore Magneto surviving the Holocaust too. Since it's on par for each character.
    Last edited by salarta; 10-19-2019 at 06:48 PM.
    I can also be reached on BlueSky and Tumblr. Avatar by kahlart.

    Ghosts of Genosha minicomic focused on Polaris, written by me and drawn by Fin_NoMore.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  15. #1005
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    The Holocaust is real world history affecting real Jews, including my family. Genosha is comic book fiction. There's a big difference in the moral weight of how those are addressed in fiction vs. meta-text. And again, as people have told you, many of us do not feel they have 'ignored' it.

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