Polaris: Lorna Dane Appreciation 2019

[Electricmastro]

thanks for my new avatar, lol

You're welcome. lol

[salarta]

On the topic of what Lorna and Cyclops discussed, a clarification of what I've said in my previous posts.

I don't think Lorna would doubt the basic idea of a mutant homeland, or be opposed to it. However, when a mutant homeland exists, especially one that she clearly has absolutely no say in, I think she would question its structure and methods and not blindly buy into what everyone else is diving headlong into.

She was an important part of Genosha. She survived its genocide, as millions of people who saw her as royalty and looked to her for salvation died all around her and she could do nothing to stop it. Something like that is bound to make a person exceptionally discerning about potential weaknesses. She wouldn't want to see Genosha's genocide happen all over again just because the people who have any power or influence failed to prepare for such events and presumed themselves all-knowing and all-powerful. Worth also reminding that in the end, while the Sentinels that attacked Genosha were of human make, the person who sent them, Cassandra Nova, was herself a mutant. Meaning Lorna would realize the threats don't only exist outside of mutantdom.

Sure, Lorna simply finding a good thing hard to believe fits her history of getting constantly screwed over in her life. But I think on a deeper level, she would be concerned about potential cracks in the plan which bad actors could exploit to turn it into Genosha Genocide Part II.

[RachelGrey]

On the topic of what Lorna and Cyclops discussed, a clarification of what I've said in my previous posts.

I don't think Lorna would doubt the basic idea of a mutant homeland, or be opposed to it. However, when a mutant homeland exists, especially one that she clearly has absolutely no say in, I think she would question its structure and methods and not blindly buy into what everyone else is diving headlong into.

She was an important part of Genosha. She survived its genocide, as millions of people who saw her as royalty and looked to her for salvation died all around her and she could do nothing to stop it. Something like that is bound to make a person exceptionally discerning about potential weaknesses. She wouldn't want to see Genosha's genocide happen all over again just because the people who have any power or influence failed to prepare for such events and presumed themselves all-knowing and all-powerful. Worth also reminding that in the end, while the Sentinels that attacked Genosha were of human make, the person who sent them, Cassandra Nova, was herself a mutant. Meaning Lorna would realize the threats don't only exist outside of mutantdom.

Sure, Lorna simply finding a good thing hard to believe fits her history of getting constantly screwed over in her life. But I think on a deeper level, she would be concerned about potential cracks in the plan which bad actors could exploit to turn it into Genosha Genocide Part II.

Yeah, I think Lorna has concerns about whether they are just going to repeat history. Emma had the exact same concern when they recruited her too, if they were tempting fate by repeating the same mistake of consolidating in one place as an easy target for humans.

I am curious though, maybe Krakoa has the ability to scramble radar around itself and exists like a bermuda triangle region which disrupts silicon based technology that comes into the region near the island. It's very possible this is why they have to rely on biotech on the island. I am even thinking that the Marauders ships perhaps don't actually land on Krakoa, but they pick up shipments from one of the portals located elsewhere, perhaps even a portal located on the ship itself.

[Omega Alpha]

Unlike Genosha or Utopia, Krakoa can literally defend itself.

[jmc247]

Cassandra Nova is a parasitic mummudrai that exists on the astral plane. But, the point stands that Krakoa could be subverted from within. Xavier or any number of people could be corrupted from the inside by a host of foes so you have to be ready for that contingency. At the same time too much paranoia can itself be a problem. Too much paranoia isn't an issue for Magneto or Xavier who are fully in flower power land. Troy fell due in part to enemies at the gates, but people who got cocky at the walls too and inadvertently let that enemy in.

[Soulsword323]

Bunn briefly spoke of Lorna in X-Saturday:

AiPT!: Something else I enjoyed in X-Men Blue was your take on Polaris. In my opinion, Lorna, along with Havok and Emma Frost, were characters you helped rehabilitate and bring to a better place than they were in at the time. Was bringing fan-favorite characters back to a more recognizable state something you set out to do during your run?

Bunn: Yeah, particularly with Alex and Polaris, I definitely wanted to do something to Polaris. She wasn’t treated very well in the past, I mean, really badly in the past, so I wanted to do something to show her as a cool character. Because she’s pretty great. And then Alex, I had a lot of plans for Alex. I had a lot I wanted to do with Alex, but taking those first few steps–I don’t feel like I did a lot with him because the series ended, but I would have done a lot more with him.

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...ing-the-x-men/

Nothing new, or groundbreaking here. Though I don't know why the interviewer thought that Polaris needed to be rehabilitated. She wasn't in a similar situation as Emma or Havok.

[jmc247]

The run did treat Lorna as having something that had to be redeemed. The bad things she did when possessed. He brought that up directly and indirectly over and over again from his very start of using her in Last Days. I view possession as a writers plot device that says nothing about the character in question nor do they have anything to be redeemed for after a possession. A corruption storyline is a different matter.

There are times that possessions are used to redeem something the writer can't talk about, but feels a character needs to be redeemed for. This I saw as true with Havok as being redeemed for the magic inversion was really a stealth way to try to redeem the character for his anti-mutant identity stance on the Avengers and using Pietro to spy on Lorna in ANXF. In the same way reading between lines the reviewer at the time seemed to regard the Malice redemption fight for Lorna as a stealth way to redeem her for her lashing out at Havok with the wedding stuff, mutant activism, etc.

My view is that it can be quite interesting having something worth redeeming, but magic inversions and possessions are in a separate category.

[salarta]

If Bunn wanted to redeem Havok, he should've done it without trying to force him onto Lorna and ignoring her unique development and perspective in the process. Within the context of his work, it was blatant to me that he valued Havok more than Lorna, and his work did a great job of demonstrating why Havok anywhere near Lorna right now is a bad thing.

Lorna's return issue after a 2 year limbo became all about how she could be used to boost Havok and Magneto's statuses, in Havok's case how Lorna can be used to say what a good man Havok is supposed to be. Lorna beating Havok in combat is still a bad thing if the fight is all about putting Havok on a pedestal and defining her by his existence. Later, the Malice storyline that could've been an amazing tale in itself amounted to nothing, as it rested within a story arc primarily about Havok and was more like short page filler as a result. Along the way, Bunn tried to spin the idea that they had been apart "for a long time" - despite it only being 5 years apart at that time, probably the equivalent of about 6 months in-universe (and even post-breakup, Havok STILL gets forced into her storylines one way or another, either by questioning her leadership in ANXF, or occupying a mind bubble on Prisoner X, or Cyclops mentioning him to her on Krakoa instead of literally anything of Lorna's own history coming up). And when we take into account things outside the writing, I remember Bunn excitedly tweeting about how he was going to use Havok soon, something he didn't do for Lorna.

Bunn's on point about how Lorna's been treated poorly in the past, and needed something good. But words and actions are two different things.

Just to better emphasize my perspective, I'm going to add a much worse outside example: 3rd Birthday. In interview, the main writer, Motomu Toriyama, talked about how he looked forward to writing a "cool mature woman in her 30s." By his interview, you would've thought she would be written as an awesome standard bearer of female protags at a time when video game companies thought nobody wanted to play as women. Yet when the actual game came out, "Aya" (said woman) was literally a little girl body-swapped into Aya's body, who throughout the game you are led to believe is an amnesiac Aya who's absolutely terrified of combat and perfectly fine with repeated sexual harassment (including one male character written OOC to perv out over Aya and say things like how he wanted to taste Aya's tears).

To bring this back around: I think Bunn generally improved on how he was writing Lorna from Blue #8 to the end. But there were still a lot of problems, and most of them stem from how Lorna was treated in relation to Havok. Even if he had good intentions, adding Havok to the mix stymied those intentions. Again, the cover for X-Men Blue #28 makes this point relatively clear.



Regardless of who came up with the cover, why would anyone think this was a good depiction of Lorna's dynamic on the book? A woman prone and lying on the ground with her legs wide open while two men fight for control over her. The implication being that Lorna's only good for being defined by men and serving their interests, not having stories and developments of her own.

Which naturally is a BS take that Marvel can't seem to stop themselves from going for.

Anyway, I feel like I've typed enough. I'll just remind that before Blue, I was very supportive of Bunn writing Lorna. By the end, I wanted her far away from him. I actually pushed for her to show up on the Magneto solo, and wanted her on Uncanny. That's where I was coming from as I read the things I've talked about above.

[AbnormallyNormal]

The situation with Havok and Polaris is complicated, there are still many casual fans who believe they belong together (some people think it'd be a good way to tie in the Summers family with the Maximoff family)

When you get "iconically defined" a certain way as Lorna was as in a romance with Alex, it's hard to really go off from that. Especially when their break-up happened under a notoriously despised writer, and then Lorna was treated as though she "went insane" to "explain" the breakup, instead of it resulting from a longer-term accumulation of things giving it more credence.

So I don't fault Bunn for using them together, remember he ultimately DIDN'T make them get together, he had them act respectful towards one another and (aside from the cover which I don't think Bunn created or wanted but I don't know) gave Polaris an increasingly powerful role. I feel like, again, you have to compare her role in BLUE to other books. Show me where she's treated much better then I'll take it serious... in ANXF she was "OK" but didn't get that much shine or prominence. Of course a part of it was that ANXF ended really prematurely, as did BLUE for that matter. Prisoner of X she was "ok" too. Uncanny by Rosenburg? If you think that was a good take on her I'm not sure what to tell you.

Right now in Dawn of X we have two issues with her, both have her as basically a mature daughter of Magneto. You can say it's sad she is always defined as her relationship to men but ... I mean... being the daughter of Magneto is a very key identifier for a character. It's not something to reasonably expect authors to just neglect. And it's better than her being armcandy or an accessory for Havok, because here she has a more philosophical struggle, instead of being reduced to a domesticated role where she needs "saving" by Havok (her role in 70s and 80s and 90s). She does need to better get defined as a character in her own full right, holistically. But we should evaluate her appearances for what they are, even if they aren't totally ideal. It's all comparative

[salarta]

People who think Lorna x Havok would be a good way of tying the Magnus-Summers families together aren't wrong, but they either don't realize or don't care that the current situation between Lorna and Havok is one that has always held Lorna back and led to horrendous mistreatment of her.

Lorna needs some major work on her as her own character, with her development, history, potential and nature properly explored and understood. Until that happens, forcing Havok back onto her is a huge mistake. Even in the extremely unlikely chance that one writer doesn't screw that up, it's inevitable that writers after them WILL screw it up. Nostalgia and existing patterns are natural sinkholes for writing. The only way to avoid falling into them is creating structures to walk around or over them.

I could just as easily say Havok should never be written anywhere near Lorna ever again. But I'm willing to acknowledge that it can be fixed if the proper work is done, as opposed to how Marvel apparently thinks Lorna's not allowed to be her own character. That her surviving the Genoshan massacre means nothing to Hickman and HoX/PoX/DoX is in itself proof of how bad this dynamic is. Marvel stopped acknowledging Lorna had anything to do with Genosha or was affected by it in any way the moment she got thrown into space to be Havok's supporting character girlfriend again. It's a vivid sign of just how bad it is when a character survives a genocide where millions died and she had massive trauma from those moments playing in her head all the time, and 15 years later Marvel's just like "Genosha what?"

Show me where she's treated much better then I'll take it serious... in ANXF she was "OK" but didn't get that much shine or prominence. Of course a part of it was that ANXF ended really prematurely, as did BLUE for that matter. Prisoner of X she was "ok" too. Uncanny by Rosenburg? If you think that was a good take on her I'm not sure what to tell you.

ANXF from #7 on after she got to have good dynamics with Pietro (including Pietro talking about how inspiring she can be), and she got to spend time with Wanda. On Austen, although there were of course problems (including Lorna x Havok problems), he at least cared that she survived the genocide and was affected by it. And he didn't need to have Lorna crying in Havok's arms about the genocide to demonstrate how it affected her. Secret Wars: House of M did great for Lorna as she was clearly a savvy and strong warrior and leader, the one big drawback being how Pietro and at times Magneto were treated. Jeff Parker's Exiles was also an awesome fun time where we got a glimpse at how Lorna and Wanda's dynamics could go.

Those are just examples of what people have written. But in reality, I'm looking at what could and should be written. Saying "show me a writer who did it better" implies that being just above average treatment is good enough, even if average treatment is "Lorna exists to be Havok's girlfriend with no thoughts of her own."

Right now in Dawn of X we have two issues with her, both have her as basically a mature daughter of Magneto. You can say it's sad she is always defined as her relationship to men but ... I mean... being the daughter of Magneto is a very key identifier for a character. It's not something to reasonably expect authors to just neglect.

I wouldn't want Magneto as Lorna's father to be neglected either. But neither should it be treated like it's all she has to offer. She has history with both Genosha and Krakoa, and each could have played meaningfully into events. But they came up nowhere, and meant nothing, insofar as everything currently happening. The only identifiers used so far are "daughter of Magneto" and "ex of Havok." Where are her personal identifiers, like "Genoshan genocide survivor?" The situation shouldn't be one where the author can't neglect this man is her father, but it's okay to neglect something that completely devastated her.

I'll also add that causes for complaint are cumulative. If Marvel had spent the past 4 years giving Lorna plenty of play as a Genoshan genocide survivor, I could've shrugged off the absence of it in HoX/PoX/DoX as something so well known that Marvel doesn't feel they need to mention it at this time. But the fact of the matter is, Marvel has pretended it never happened to her for about 15 years now. Which makes its absence in HoX/PoX/DoX, paired with playing up how she can be defined by men around her, into a continuation of all the same problems Marvel's always had for decades in how they see and treat her. I don't see why I should think this "new era" is truly new and might do better by her if I've seen nothing but the same old tricks.

[Soulsword323]

I believe Lorna's lines in HOX #5, when she asks if humans have any good to them, is a reference to Polaris' history. It's part of the characters arc going all the way back to what happened on Genosha, and how she see's that the humans building those machines share the blame for the genocide there. Not every writer has to go out of their way to explicitly state every facet of a character's history. Even if you wanted a clearly started reference to her time on Genosha, Bunn has Lorna say to Magneto (in his solo series) that "She'd like to see where it'd go this time." Or something like that after she brings up Genosha to Magneto. Marvel isn't ignoring it. They just don't need to hammer the point in that she survived every time the character is used.

[salarta]

For those who don't know Lorna's history, Lorna saying she would've liked to see where Genosha went could easily be taken as purely admiring her father's vision, since it doesn't actually acknowledge she had a role there. Lorna's HoX line could easily be seen as her echoing Magneto's sentiment, nothing to do with Genosha.

The only times in the past 15 years that Marvel's acknowledged Lorna surviving Genosha were on the Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon in 2009, and a small part of a cover about a year or two ago. This is compared to how HoX explicitly name-dropped what happened on Genosha and Magneto's involvement in it, and how Magneto was involved in Axis when Red Skull exploited the Genoshan dead while Lorna was written way off in DC far away from the events.

"Hammering the point" implies they've done anything with the point at all. They haven't even really acknowledged the point exists.

Or on the flip side, by this same token I could say Marvel's going overboard hammering the point home about Magneto being Lorna's father with how often they have her say "father" in dialogue.

Edit: We have writers who think 5 years is a "long time" for Lorna and Havok to be apart, at the same time Genosha hasn't come up for Lorna in 10 years all media, 15+ in comics.

[Soulsword323]

Your point was that Marvel continues to ignore Polaris' ties to Genosha, and that isn't true. Bunn mentioned it in Magneto's solo series, but because it wasn't super specific, it doesn't count. You can continue to say all of Marvel is out to try to ignore her history, but I don't think that's true.

[jmc247]

The line in House of X #5 I would say was very much an indirect reference to Lorna's feelings in regards to the Genoshan genocide. Some reviewers and fans who really knew their Lorna history most certainly got that. But, many did not, because they either didn't know about it and/or there were more recent events they might have thought Lorna's comments were motivated by.

I very much appreciated the comments in HoX #5 as I felt it accuratedly presented some of Lorna's philosophical views and its the first I have seen of that in the 616 in a long awhile... I also do wish that it is more directly referenced at some point in the future. Hickman based on his conversation between Lorna and Magneto does love his philosophy so it very well might happen.

[GodfatherIV]

The idea that Cyclops felt happy and fulfilled and at peace with having his family AND Lorna and her father around....and then going as far as to invite her over spoke of some chemistry at least in my opinion. Not that anything will happen but why not. Seems like people want to break up Scott and Jean anyway and really Havok has never been a favorite of mine so yeah lets go with it