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  1. #1141
    My Mutant Muses TRIFECTA! Heroine Addict's Avatar
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    SO... I'm BACK!! Make no mistake, I've missed my CBR activity, and... ALL of you!!!

    Here's what I thought were some of Lorna's best moments, since I've been gone:





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  2. #1142
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    I frankly think X-Men #1 and HOX are the closest she’s come to serious B-list in a long time. I suppose you can make a case for her role in Magneto and the Blue filler arc but I don’t rate that stuff much. This is the first stuff in a long time that will make more than the dedicated small fanbase take notice.

    I think it is a mistake to put Lorna on teams with a majority of characters even less consequential than her. That guarantees no one reads it or rates her among the majors. The way to make her essential is to put her among essentials in substantial books, be it Marauders or something else.

  3. #1143
    My Mutant Muses TRIFECTA! Heroine Addict's Avatar
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    "Maybe neXt time.

    When the past is the past and I'm not still finding my way in a new world."

  4. #1144
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I frankly think X-Men #1 and HOX are the closest she’s come to serious B-list in a long time. … This is the first stuff in a long time that...

    … rates her among the majors. The way to make her essential is to put her among essentials in substantial books, be it Marauders or something else.



    Could just be coincidence, but even before X-Men #1 and goin' all the way back to Phoenix Resurrection, she was with Kitty's "team" towards the end (along with Iceman)... per orders from Cap'n Kate herself, no less.

    Then in Uncanny Disassembled, it was with Ororo's group again, so... some foreshadowing, maybe?

    Oh, and as already mentioned & shown, there was Emma in Blue... and Bishop in Prisoner X.

  5. #1145
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I frankly think X-Men #1 and HOX are the closest she’s come to serious B-list in a long time. I suppose you can make a case for her role in Magneto and the Blue filler arc but I don’t rate that stuff much. This is the first stuff in a long time that will make more than the dedicated small fanbase take notice.

    I think it is a mistake to put Lorna on teams with a majority of characters even less consequential than her. That guarantees no one reads it or rates her among the majors. The way to make her essential is to put her among essentials in substantial books, be it Marauders or something else.
    Let's think how should I put this

    You're speaking to the tension between making a character popular or seem important to readers versus keeping them interesting, unique, and setting them apart, and developing them in a more integral way

    If I have to choose I am going with #2

    But fortunately I believe Polaris has the benefit due to her parentage and past connections with the lore of being able to get both and not needing to sacrifice as much.

    You never can predict what books or lineups will "take off" it depends how well they are written, drawn and all that, or contrasted with other books out there

    But yeah i think that she can become important due to who she is without having to slap her alongside characters she really has very little ties with and might disagree with on a bunch of things and then write her OoC as their best friend. That's something I don't want and it would to me be a bad tradeoff. I feel the same for the possibility of her in the MCU. If they make her just wear all green and basically be a background/wallpaper type who simply happens to share a powerset with Magneto then sure it would be "exposure" for her as a character in a sense, but it would not really bring out the appealing potential of her character. It would be a waste.

    But hopefully the MCU and the books could "do both" and keep her interesting, dynamic, with conflict and tensions, while also generating appeal around her.

    Take example of the TV show The Gifted. They managed to present a relatively different, dynamic, active, conflict-ridden, and philosophically complicated take on Polaris.... AND it made her massively more popular at the same time. Whereas she was somewhat artificially inserted into Rosenburg's Uncanny run (which at the time it started had enormous hype around it as a Rebirth of the Xline) but her portrayal was bland and weak and not very compelling. That's what I'm trying to say here. On the TV show she didn't have to get overshadowed by far more famous characters, so SHE was able to become more of the star. That's what she needs. Now it's always a balance and putting her with a bunch of SUPER obscure or unknowns isn't good either. But I'm just saying, let's not make her a "minnow" in a sea of sharks nor the big fish with a bunch of minnows. Try to place her where she belongs.

    Edit: at the risk of turning this post in a giant wall of text and rant I just had some more ideas while I was doing other things early this morning

    I was thinking about other characters that received "pushes" and did indeed become very popular. 2 in particular came to my mind: Rogue and Emma Frost.

    Now those two are different in some ways but similar in others. They both fall into the well-worn narrative trajectory of "Villain to Hero". In Rogue's case, pretty much she 100% disavowed all her past actions and rebelliousness alongside her foster parents , and decided to fully embrace "Xavierism" (of course there was skill skepticism of her at least for a while). Over time she became incredibly popular, but I would argue at the cost of trading away so much of what made her a compelling character originally. (Pretty much her only true drama has been related to her mutation itself, and then writers try to even take THAT from her lol)

    Emma Frost, was a "villain" for a lot longer than Rogue, more prominent to begin with. Her journey towards Heroics took longer and involved extreme traumas. There were also enough shading with her villain characterization so you could pull this off in a somewhat believable way (keep her caring about future of mutant youth as a connecting tissue). However by the time Emma Frost joined the XMen proper in 2001, society and comic reader expectations were in enough of a more evolved or mature place compared to 1983 with Rogue, that Emma *didn't have to utterly disavow her entire old personality and self*! She was able to function as a core XMen member for at least a decade while tons of others were constantly questioning her, suspicious of her, and she retained her snark, sarcasm, and exhibited a more pragmatic and occasionally ruthless/selfish attitude throughout. So I would say that's a much more successful example of a "push" where you *retain what makes the character interesting and appealing* and nevertheless they get more popular. There are plenty of examples of characters where you make them bland, dilute them, etc. in order to artificially try to get more audience to relate to them and like them. And it often doesn't work, and then you destroyed the character anyway.

    As a creator you don't control how the audience will respond to the character. You cannot "force popularity". It's also important for us to be relatively realistic here. Polaris will never be the #1 most prominent X-woman. That's not going to happen and there is no sense in even thinking along those lines at all. She won't be in the top 3 probably ever. Your control as a creator is in *making a character good and compelling* and then you have to just hope enough of an audience feels similarly and picks up on it. That's the way to go to keep it organic. This is true for X-Men as a series or brand overall. It's one of the minor miracles of pop culture that Claremont's subversive approach to X-Men eventually made them mega popular. But he never diluted and sacrificed his vision just to try to increase that popularity. So it occurred in that rare overlap in the overton window of culture/art of Good meets Popular. That, on a smaller scale, is how I feel things should be with Lorna. Don't change her around and make her bland just so she can fit in and chitchat with the likes of Jean and Storm. Keep the things about her that make her different, that make her exciting to write for and read about. And let any popularity take care of itself, you ultimately can't force it and there is no magic formula for making something popular.

    So that all in mind, I bring up Rogue and Emma as examples of the Villain --> Hero narrative. This is a very well-documented path in the X-lore for quite some time, in fact a lot of readers complain about it because they want "true baddies" for their faves to beat up mercilessly and feel good about it.

    But... how often is the inverse narrative trajectory explored in the X-books? Of Hero --> Villain...? I can only really think of Cyclops from 2001-2015 off the top of my head right now. And that I felt was VERY compelling, it was amazing actually how they did it. Now I don't even believe Cyclops ever even became a "villain" at the worst he was a rebellious antihero. But it was still a remarkable transformation from his portrayal of 1963-2000 as the Uptight Boy Scout (his connecting tissue was essentially exploration of the stresses and obsessions he always exhibited as Xavier's #1 pupil and hardworking nerd warrior, how he didn't get to grow up "normally" and so forth).

    Ok another example COULD BE Magik. She went from total innocent kid sis of hero Colossus into "victim of demons" but we saw how her persona essentially merged with her trauma, and she came to "own it" and not just as "the corrupted victim". Especially in her post-rebirth runs where she flirts much more dangerously with becoming almost a villain herself. And Magik became MORE popular while this happened!

    Unfortunately they're backing away from this narrative with both these characters especially Cyclops who has become something more in-between his Boy Scout persona and his Revolutionary one, but perhaps closer to Boy Scout at this point. And Magik is sort of turning more into "just a hothead" , plus all this nonsense about her mentoring under Dr Strange, but she's still a lot closer to following the trajectory than Scott is now.

    My point is, this is a very fertile ground for a character like Lorna! I would love to see her journey be almost the opposite of Emma Frost's. Lorna was known as a classic hero for a very long time, but with occasional shades that hint at other things. And yet, over the course of time, particularly during the Austen run, with reveal about her parentage and her changing behaviors and thoughts, we see her take on a more hardened or militant tone (but she keeps enough commonality with her older portrayals that there is still a feeling of a holistic person, and continuity). This is a very good route to take for her, show a character that fans relate to and already appreciate "broaden horizons" and get them to have to re-evaluate their own assumptions about right, wrong and so on, as this character is changing and rethinking. It's a rare route and I would love to see more of it.

    That's my "meta view" on Polaris that informs my opinion about what would be ideal or not for her in the books.

    And good choices for your images Heroine Addict I like all of those too
    Last edited by AbnormallyNormal; 11-10-2019 at 04:32 AM.
    "So many killers... so much screaming... so many dying. I didn't know where to turn, who to help - which sentinel to stop first. And with the accusations of human judgement screaming in my ears... all I could think was that he was right. MAGNETO HAD BEEN RIGHT ALL ALONG!"

  6. #1146
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    It’s no secret, but: I don’t care about The Gifted. And the reality is, neither do a lot of people. It was a poorly reviewed, barely watched cheap network show. I recognize that it had its fans and gave Lorna a bit more visibility within that fanbase. The problem is it didn’t work overall. So you can call that my bias, you can call it closedminded or anything else. Some of it may have the virtue of being true. But so does what I said about the show at core. The Gifted is never going to get Lorna anywhere, because not only was it not very good and barely watched, it is now gone.

    As to the rest: I’d agree with the issue of compromising Lorna’s character if there was an issue to be found. But there isn’t. There’s no reason not to pair her in a team with heavy hitters on a book that will get people actually reading about her. It does not betray anything about her character for her to be on a team with anyone from Cyclops to Wolverine to Storm or Kitty or Emma or Jean or whoever else. I don’t see the problem. I don’t think it has to go the way you suggest. A balance can be struck just as you yourself describe - so it’s not an issue.

    (I also have zero interest in the latter-day KYost characterization of Magik I feel was meant to be permanent before it got undone, and I don’t believe her returning to her core personality is regressive. YMMV.)

  7. #1147
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    Welcome back Heroine Addict. Its good to see you around here again. What did you think of Lorna in under Hickman and Vita?

    For me I felt Vita's Lorna had the edge that Blue's Lorna was sorely lacking outside a scene or two even though there wasn't enough time to get a deeper sense of the character. Hickman's Lorna has the cynicism we haven't seen in the comics for Lorna since Austen left.

    I generally think in terms of the fans that have gotten their hopes up for the Mauraders its most likely nothing if one looks at the upcoming solicits, we will know for near certainty in about a week when Feb solicits come out, but they are excited about the new era and want Lorna to have a place in it I understand that though some aren't looking much at upcoming plans for the title, the cast size and other logistical issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    My point is, this is a very fertile ground for a character like Lorna! I would love to see her journey be almost the opposite of Emma Frost's. Lorna was known as a classic hero for a very long time, but with occasional shades that hint at other things. And yet, over the course of time, particularly during the Austen run, with reveal about her parentage and her changing behaviors and thoughts, we see her take on a more hardened or militant tone (but she keeps enough commonality with her older portrayals that there is still a feeling of a holistic person, and continuity). This is a very good route to take for her, show a character that fans relate to and already appreciate "broaden horizons" and get them to have to re-evaluate their own assumptions about right, wrong and so on, as this character is changing and rethinking. It's a rare route and I would love to see more of it.
    I think you are both right and very wrong at the same time. The entirety of the 90s she was on a low selling satellite title. Mind you a low selling title in the early 90s meant over 100K in comic sales. Today it means a fifth that because the market is different. I will say this Lorna's relationships with the core X-Men lack flair or any kind of solid basis to get fans talking.

    Lorna I personally suspect won't have the kind of solid pre-packaged interesting relations with the litany of core X-Men until she gets her own major conflict with the X-Men arc she not her father owns and the years and years of fallout and relationship building. There is a reason why her best animated series episode is a replay of X-Men 132 and UXM 443 with Xavier.
    Last edited by jmc247; 11-10-2019 at 08:12 PM.

  8. #1148
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Welcome back, Heroine Addict!

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    On the issue of the impact of Emma Dumont and TG it continues to this day among casual fans online. Emma D., her depiction and continuing presence online has married fans of movie Magneto and MCU Scarlet Witch to Lorna in a way where those casual fans are interested in Lorna to a level that simply didn't exist three years ago. We are talking large numbers of casual fans that skews to a different generation then typically posters on this thread.



    Link

    And, the unique situation of an actor who actually is the fan of a comic character and promotes depictions of that character when she feels its justified not just pretends to be a comic fan as long as they are picking up a pay check for it. Oh, and Emma's birthday is in five days for those that went to send her their regards then.

    Last edited by jmc247; 11-10-2019 at 03:02 PM.

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    Link

    That reminds me of the question of the history of how/why Lorna with Magneto’s helmet became an iconic image globally for the character. It actually started two decades ago with playing some pitch hitter for an out of commission Mags.

    This was in an Alan Davis comic not long after The Twelve saga. This was one of only two scenes Lorna has been in with Frenzy.





    I honestly suspect that helped seed the idea for the wedding costume to Austen three years later. That made it a pretty iconic site to comic audiences.

    The WATXM episode The Badlands globalized interest among non-comic book readers. That episode sort of merged three of her most iconic early 00s issues into one.

    I asked Alan Davis recently about the Twelve Saga and his role in Lorna’s early Genosha arc. He said he went in with no game plan for the character though he didn’t say it it was patently obvious he was borrowing from her 60s storyline ideas down to injured and out of commission Magneto and Lorna having to take over from him which happened in her first comic storyline. He also said he wrote her because two other writers refused to do The Twelve Saga which left to him who was willing to take on the saga.
    Last edited by jmc247; 11-10-2019 at 10:27 PM.

  11. #1151
    Mighty Member darewithpeace's Avatar
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    i didnt know polaris was on infinity war, cool
    we can be heroes, just for one day

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    Quote Originally Posted by darewithpeace View Post
    i didnt know polaris was on infinity war, cool
    I remember reading Infinity War at the time. She was in a lot of those early 90s company wide events. Though she didn't have much to say in them. She had a look, but didn't have a voice. She had the same problem in x-events in the early 90s. She actually was in almost all the x-overs like Fatal Attractions, but even I don't remember what she said or did outside her core title at the time.

    My suspicion was editorial at the time which was running a tight ship basically had her on the list of who they wanted to appear in the large group shots on these crossovers to promote the various ongoing titles and Lorna's name almost always was there as the female lead of a title at the time. Writers weren't sure about the voice so they kind of kept it real generic in the rare instances when she said something.

    The character was sort of in search of a voice back then. I think that problem still exists for a lot of writers who really don't get the character, but I actually think in the search of a voice the new crop of writers like Vita and Hickman is on a better track then before. I mean House of X is one of the big modern x-events that people will look back on in 20-30 years and she managed a good one liner that is memorable. That is a step up in the grand scheme of things.

    On the topic of not often recalled things, I remembered something myself today.

    Polaris and Mystique actually had a pretty developed relationship from the mid 90s to late 90s though it runs into if a tree falls in a forest situation with satellite titles when they aren’t critically acclimated.
    Last edited by jmc247; 11-11-2019 at 09:35 AM.

  13. #1153
    Wanda & Ribrianne~4~Life! CJStriker's Avatar
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    Hello Polaris Fans, Been Awhile, well to much of Awhile since I posted on Polaris's Thread since maybe the 2018 Thread.

    So might know me but many likely don't, It is good to talk to all of you again especially after all the Positive Usage Polaris is getting out of the House of X and Powers of X storyline and Post Story's. It is good to see her at the front of the X-Men once again and that as well as the invite of a good friend of Mine Jmc247 Made me want to come back and start posting again when I can!

    Good to talk to you all again and I have been REALLY Loving the House and Powers of X Story-lines and post story-lines and I have been collecting as many of the comics as I can, So Good on the series and the Usage of Polaris so much as well!
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  14. #1154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroine Addict View Post






    "Maybe neXt time.

    When the past is the past and I'm not still finding my way in a new world."
    I really love what we've seen of Polaris so far in this new era I don't know I just really like the focus of her relationships with Magneto and the Summer family and the fact that she has an open invitation to join them on the moon but wants to figure her shit out first.

    I'm actually kind of happy that Wanda and Pietro are no longer Magneto's kids the means to focus goes straight to Polaris which I think is appropriate because she was always the better child out of the three.

  15. #1155
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJStriker View Post
    Hello Polaris Fans, Been Awhile, well to much of Awhile since I posted on Polaris's Thread since maybe the 2018 Thread.

    So might know me but many likely don't, It is good to talk to all of you again especially after all the Positive Usage Polaris is getting out of the House of X and Powers of X storyline and Post Story's. It is good to see her at the front of the X-Men once again and that as well as the invite of a good friend of Mine Jmc247 Made me want to come back and start posting again when I can!

    Good to talk to you all again and I have been REALLY Loving the House and Powers of X Story-lines and post story-lines and I have been collecting as many of the comics as I can, So Good on the series and the Usage of Polaris so much as well!
    Thanks, CJ I have the hopes for something good down the road for not just Lorna and in time the end fixing the mistakes of the past as Marvel is building things up this year and into next towards dealing with certain outstanding issues.

    The turf battles between the parts of the franchises damaged the characters involved including Wanda and other posters are right kept Lorna out of a meaningful role or at times any role in family events including Axis which dissolved them as a family and hopefully the new era corrects both things.
    Last edited by jmc247; 11-11-2019 at 08:59 AM.

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